New England Newcomer

[mahhhty]

Sorry Labug. I missed them.

Did your wife have postpartum depression? If so was she treated? She's gone through a lot of trauma in the last 4 years. Does she see an IC?

She hasn't ever seen anyone as far as I know. I think she has been depressed, but it is always masked by our kids and by work. She is a very private and passive person, she's not one to talk about her feelings all that much. We originally wanted a very large family, and after my son was born that possibility was taken away. We have barely discussed that.

In regards to our marriage, I asked multiple times to speak to someone, or go to a marriage boot camp, or a weekend seminar. I threw out a ton of ideas. Her response was no over and over. At one point she said "Why do you need someone in the room to hear me telling you what I am telling you now." However, a couple weeks ago it was extremely ironic.... In our state it is required to go to a Child Impact Seminar when you are filling for Divorce, which is taught by a Therapist. She called me immediately after saying how useful it was. I just laughed in my head. The woman who didn't want to talk to anyone thought a therapist was useful.

[labug]

If the therapist is talking about what's best for the kids, that's very different from trying to figure out your own stuff. It's good that she got something from it and it may or may not open her up to the possibility.

If she is depressed you can't do anything about it but it does give some insight. It'difficult to get treatment, there's so much stigma. I put it off for years.

Not having more children is a big life changer. She's got a lot to work through.

[25yearsmlc]

As for the questions related to work. My promotion in 2013 definitely increased my workload at home and at work, while also increasing travel.

I didn't meant to sound dismissive. I am fully aware it had a large impact on our relationship, I am also very sure she felt like an only parent. She travels a lot as well, and we would literally pass each other in planes while the grandparents were watching the kids. It was no way to live.

I am trying to find a way to leave that job. My resume is out at multiple other companies, I am also trying to develop my own business. I want to be the father that is present, that isn't stressed with an unworkable situation. I always wanted to be the father that coaches his kids sports teams and I intend on being that person.

Mahhty, this^^ comment hit me hard, but mostly in a good way.

On one hand, it makes me feel wistful for what my own life plan was, and how a career change on h's part, (to go to medical school at the age of 30) more or less changed things dramatically.


I'm not bitter now, but I could have been and was on my way to that. Maybe it's good that I met bitter doctor's wives many years ago. Then, I swore I'd never sound like them and I hope I don't.

Yet now when I meet young people interested in medicine, I always ask them if they also want families...not that they cannot have them, but that they have to be realistic about what is coming. In fairness to my h and myself, neither of us had a realistic view of how hard medical school and the rest, would be. And we were brand new parents who did not know how time consuming having children is, (or should be).

Here's what I really wanted you to know--- Your comment mostly reminded me of a neighbor/father I know. Several years ago, he led the pack of us taking our kids trick or treating on Halloween, while our spouses did the hand out candy routine.

The neighbor, "Eric", mentioned his new job that was closer to home. Less of a commute meant more family time.

Another father w/us, Bet Eric that the career move was a "big pay increase" and Eric said 'No, it was a DECREASE in pay, but I have a ton more time now. I'm coaching s12's team and can go to the D's recitals..." At that moment in time I had so wished my h could have heard Eric say that. "What a great dad", I recall thinking.

But I happened to know Eric's w, a good friend of mine. She had a "come to Jesus!" talk with him some months before, claiming that he "didn't really even know their children." She challenged him to become a more present father and to his credit, he did.

Eric made himself a much bigger part of his kids' lives from then on.

It's a really good thing b/c only about 18 months after that Halloween, after really inserting himself more into his children's lives & establishing independent r's with each child, his life took a dramatic turn.

One night after we all played cards, my friend, his wife, said she had a "splitting headache, something's wrong", and she died quite suddenly of an aneurysm, at age 42, with 4 kids (age 7 to 14).

Eric & the kids were bereft. But they were close and knew their dad loved them, and he knew them each of them as individual people. Eric had real r's with each of his children so when his w died, they were Not hurt AND alone, but shared their grief together, and helped to heal together.

It may sound a little crazy but I always felt that his w had some sort of premonition, or at least wanted to make SURE he was very close to his kids in case she wasn't always around, and it turned out to have been a wonderful thing she helped create, b/c of that later tragedy.

Mahhty, you are right to want that kind of life style, but you must follow up and make it happen. It won't land in your lap. I don't mean to be morbid now, but it's well worth remembering that tomorrow, is promised to no one,
and life seems much shorter to me these days.

Besides, ALL of you will benefit from that "time for coaching" career move, regardless of any choice your w may make.

In fact, if you divorce, you having more time for your kids will matter even more, I think. I also think your inserting yourself into the kids lives more, makes a divorce a bit less likely, but that's not really the main point of this.

At this stage, if I were you, I'd stay the course and trust that with the tincture of time, your w may well come out of this. It won't be linear and neither will the progress, so bear that in mind as well. This is NOT a linear process.

So that I know I'm not glossing over anything and that you are not, what specifically are your 180s and some traits you'd like to work on, to become the best Mahhhty you can become? Working on those and not pursuing your wife for now, seems wisest to me.

But things evolve and change and adjustments can be made, in time. I hope that with your changes being made, when she looks your way and sees that they are real, lasting changes, she'll take a second look.

Frankly, it's very hard for me to imagine a mother who once loved her h, seeing him be a great dad, and more available to her than before (and whatever other changes you are making, sticking) then, NOT second guessing herself.

No woman is unmoved by seeing her children lovingly interacting with their dad. I know some women stay with their h's solely because of that. So do make it happen.

Here's to your new year being a year of growth, renewed spirituality & commitment, love and peace within.

[mahhhty]

25 - Thank you 25. I appreciate the time and effort you have put into my story. I plan on using this as a tool to continue my growth.

As far as 180s. The below is from my page 3.

180s:
- I am re-identifying with myself... bc I lost my identity as an individual
- I am more present... bc I was withdrawn
- I am trying to be happier... bc I wasn't
- I am trying to learn about relationships... bc I wasn't knowledgable
- I am trying to be more aware & appreciative... bc I was passive & assuming
- I am trying to be more laid back, compassionate & understanding... bc I was judgmental, high strung & stressed
- I am trying to be more attractive... bc I was loosing fashion sense from working at home
- I am working out consistently... bc I have always struggled with long term dedication
- I am traveling less and working on my startup more... bc I was traveling a lot and bc I want the independence of my own business (one of my dreams)

In short, my goal is to be happier, healthier, and to be a better Father, Son, Friend and hopefully Husband.

I have been focusing on:
- GAL
- Sandi2's Rules
- The Serenity Prayer
- "Be the change you wish to see in the world" - Gandhi
- "The finest steel has to go through the hottest fire." - Nixon
- With time comes clarity
- "Act as if by showing that you will be happy regardless of S's choice. You show strength by finding some new friends/activities aside from spouse. Actions speak louder than words." - Someone in the forum, much smarter than me

[Georgia Bulldogs]

In response to 25years' post (which I've place in a spoiler box for easy reference) please accept the following well intentioned response. I see 25 is a veteran here with over 10,000 posts so I hope and pray that is an indication of willingness to learn versus a feeling of superior understanding. We are all just novices here and MWD is the only true professional. That being said, there is just so many things I find wrong with the post that responding line by line is just way too confusing. I chose instead to respond with bullet points hoping that might work best and be the most helpful to the OP as well as 25years as we all attempt to come to an understanding and respect one another and our various opinions regarding marital strife and infidelity.

Georgia, please don't take my quoting your post as a slight. I do disagree with a lot of this but not all - and simply think this is the best way to show a difference in opinion.

(Plus, you're a Bulldog and I went to Auburn, so there's that... WAR EAGLE )

When they say "ILYBNILWY", it's typically, but not always, because they have a point of comparison. It's wayward wife speak for I love someone else now.

Georgia Bulldogs... I just quoted the top, but the entire post is definitely relevant. She has never been a person to lie or withhold things. However, as time went on, she withheld the affair acquisition and withheld the idea of her happiness from me. Our communication as a couple was awful (but great as parents), and our love languages were not being spoken.
KEY IN ON THIS^^^ b/c frankly, even if there is an OM, this LL matters a lot.

FTR, I'm NOT big on snooping unless you KNOW it'd be a definitive deal breaker for you. If you are POSITIVE of that, snoop away and then file if you find an OM.


(But IF it is not, then why bother?) You're not under the same roof now anyhow.


I am cognizant that there could be another man and I'll find out about it after the divorce. But after asking 4 times I can't ask again. I've been dealing with it by telling myself that it is something I can't control.

I don't think you should ask her again either. Waywards lie.


I don't think you should ask her again b/c it does not matter AND OR help YOU to ask. Asking so often is all about YOU , not about how "way wards lie".

And if there is no OM ---what would it take to convince you that there ist one?

Then if you keep on asking , I think a slight chance exists that you'll have pushed her into an idea she had not fully contemplated. It certainly makes you look needy/petty and jealous and NOT focused on what she'd like you to focus on. I wonder what SHE would say if she were here...


A lot more women leave marriages without OPs, than men. Statistically speaking it is a rare woman with children who simply leaves her h and marriage unless something essential, INSIDE the marriage, was missing. And she did not believe it would come back...

OR, less often but still not rare, is the woman who is missing something within HER...

You can probably state with some certainty, that she's NO 'serial cheater' so if there is an OM, now, how does that change your path of self improvement?

To ME, the biggest reason NOT to snoop is b/c if there is an OP, the growth and path that the lbs had been on, radically alters.

Now, suddenly - the LBS was a GREAT SPOUSE (what 'issues'?) and it's ONLY b/c of the OP that their WAS is now a "cheating lying scum bag" and

POOF! There goes the self improvement and here comes the self righteousness.



I'm also not suggesting you investigate and snoop on your wife indefinitely.

I'm merely proposing that you rule out the fact that it's likely she's having an affair with another person and THAT is what is ripping your family apart versus strictly just a MLC sort of thing.

I submit there are other options than these 2^^^...far more...it's just not this^^ simple.


Your wife seems in a hurry to rap this divorce up and that's probably because she wants to be able to tell people (including OM's friends and family) that they started dating around the time or after she ended up divorcing. Years done the road that history will again be revised to say they met and started dating as she (they) were already exiting or divorced from awful spouses.


Wow, massive mind reading of a woman none of us knows...and IMO, Not helping.

You mention waiting until after the divorce to find this out but were you aware the divorce process itself gives you the power and right to discovery??? IF you make an initial outside verification that there IS actually an OM (maybe hire a PI) then you can perhaps request a deposition or send some simple interrogatories asking for written or testimonial verification about the truth of your divorce.


TO WHAT END???? ADULTERY IS NOT RELEVANT TO CUSTODY IN ANY STATE-- (absent dangerous or sexual conduct in front of the children). You want to claim she's unfit as a parent??

You want to sue her for adultery as grounds for divorce? Okay in a FEW states that is an option...here are the D laws in NH, which I believe you reside in.

"The vast majority of divorces in New Hampshire are no-fault.

It is possible, however, to state a cause for divorce in New Hampshire for one or more of the following reasons:

impotence,
extreme cruelty,
adultery,

(If adultery is charged, the “co-respondent” must be named in the petition, i.e. the person with whom your spouse is committing adultery),

conviction of a crime punishable for more than one year of incarceration,

treatment by one spouse of the other that could seriously injure health,

abandonment by one spouse of the other for a period of at least two years,

when one party has been in an habitual drunken state for a period of over two years, or

when one party joins a religious sect or society that believes the relations between husband and wife are unlawful and who refuses to cohabit for a period of 6 months or longer.

How To Prove Adultery
There is most likely no such thing as a pleasant adultery case because names, dates, places, paramours, and the like have to be brought out in the open. If your spouse no longer cares about what you know and is open about the affair, you're lucky. You can then catch your spouse flagrante delicto, which means you have essentially caught your spouse in the act and may not have to worry about hiring detectives. However, you may still need a detective to prove your case in court. There is still a need for a corroborative witness, such as a mutual friend or neighbor, who has no stake in the matter except telling the court what he (she) witnessed.

You REALLY want to do this?^^^^ And if so, why? To assign blame? What purpose does that serve? She's not asking to sleep with you so NO argument about an STD fear can be made...

IF it's about money and a lot of it, then maybe I could see it...but I don't see it in this state. IT does NOT change custody and you already are splitting it evenly, right?



Phone records could be requested and depending no the state you could even depose the OM. You also may have the right to specifically demand that your children not be exposed to OM in the custody order.


Unless he is a danger to the kids (and here we are, assuming there IS an OM)...I've never seen ^^ this work. Ever.

This isn't a matter of punishing your wife. This is matter of documenting your life and protecting your children.


Sorry but I So disagree with this assessment^^ that I can barely not capitalize everything.
It does NOT protect your kids at all,

unless your w is 1) having an affair, AND 2) introducing them to the OM
AND 3) the OM is somehow very morally deficient....AND dangerous,

in which case your w has a lot of problems you are glossing over and have not mentioned at all here.

If you end up divorced and THEN try to discover or verify she's dating someone else she'll just say she started seeing him that week or the last month and you are a crazy possessive jealous EX husband with no right to invade or questions her choices and decisions. The OM could be some perverted child molester with a criminal history but you'll have missed your opportunity to document or discover any of that and protect your children.

Wow,^^^ that is some wildly baseless & negative projecting going on...yeah, I'm a L and I have seen this happen, maybe 2-3 times out of oh, 400 times...

Never in an educated career woman, however and never with someone who sounds otherwise pretty normal...are there ANY indications that your wife would over look such a glaringly deviant behavior in OM and expose them to your kids?

B/C you may as well accuse her of being an UNFIT total hosebag scoundrel while you're at it...

and any pretense of a decent relationship going forward, will evaporate. There ARE risks to this "Scorched earth" policy, which is what I see it as.


I KNOW you trust your wife and think looking her dead in the eye will give you some sense of veracity and that her prior trustworthiness and upstanding behavior means you should give her a lot of latitude. I also know that you think NOT trusting her will upset her but she is divorcing you and has PROBABLY been cheating on you for quite awhile and she is PROBABLY manipulating your lack of trust to make you feel bad hoping you'll stop investigating her while completely abusing you to your face and behind your back. Years from now...absent documenting the truth before the divorce, she'll rewrite your marital history to everyone around you including your children. Sure you may share YOUR side but your children won't know what to believe because there won't be any proof requiring anyone to tell the truth. The divorce will become mostly YOUR fault.


Total disagreement. I think the truth ALWAYS prevails, kids are smart, and the messenger of "doom" often gets blamed. IF your wife is now having an affair (and she may not have had one at all AND OR she may have begun a r with OM after the sep or after she told you she wanted one; many if not most WASs feel that once they've openly declared their intent to leave the m, they are free to date. They will NOT see it as an affair and chances are, many others will agree.

ANYHOW, the fact is that later on, the kids ask questions and are smarter than we credit them with being.

I've seen the following event or ones like it, happen a dozen times.

Eventually the kids know that "New Guy"and mom have "dated" 5 years and their "anniversary" is on the 16th, but hold on, wait a minute, "you and dad were still married then!...""""

And the truth comes out. The LBS who has not pointed the finger comes out smelling like a rose for not staining the image the kids have of EACH parent. And when you sully the spouse, the other parent, you DO harm the esteem of each child b/c each child feels that a part of THEM< is from each parent. So if the other parent is a cheating b--", then some part of them isn't so great....

I think this is all euphemisms for vindictiveness and under the guise of "truth seeking" & we are appointing our selves judge and jury (while absolving ourselves of anything "Serious" or "morally wrong"....unlike our spouses....and IMO we harm the kids far more than letting them figure it out themselves, would.
I'm NOT saying to lie for your spouse (IF IF IF there is an OM) but I am saying it's not your job to point the finger.

ALso, have you read the reasons why DB and the author, MWD OPPOSES snooping? B/C she does. It's NOT a tenet of DBing except in the circumstances mentioned.

Finally, you have issues to own and there's simply no way you can do that when your attention is on blaming her for having an affair you don't have any proof of anyhow. And btw, WHY did your w believe you had an affair on a trip you took?

Strategically for your divorce and for your own health and sanity, please independent verify the truth about your (and your daughter's) life. It may really suck to find out I was right, but it'll be worse if you find out a year from now and find yourself already the bad guy and if you complain or talk about it THEN you'll just be the mean old vindictive ex-husband and you'll play right into the trap of it all being YOUR fault.

Why do we care who is "at fault" so much? Where is this contest? Who is the "Winner"? I don't get it...I really don't. The kids are not an issue here. They are sharing them. Why must we assume she's filling the kids with bad news about her h? She may tell her family one thing to justify leaving but they know better already!

This is not a contest of who is at fault. IT's a marriage that may tragically end. And that is enough of a tragedy, isn't it? MUST we appoint a bad guy?

B/C clearly the whole snooping and PI ideas ALL have as the goal, making her the one at fault.

how is that morally superior in any way?


Finally.

Knowing the truth allows you to address the problems in your marriage honestly. Perhaps your marriage and family CAN be recovered someday, even after the divorce IF you know the truth. If you and your wife divorce and the secret affair remains a secret she may never consider recovery with you because she'll think you could never forgive her if you knew the truth.

But snooping, pointing the finger in blame and exposing the ALLEGED A, will INCREASE her belief in his forgiveness?????? Uh, no, I don't think this makes sense. Sorry




Plus, she'll want to go to her grave holding the secret and realize reconciliation with you built upon a lie would be pointless. Thus, discovering the truth also increases your odds of reconciliation.

Well, I'll just say this one last time and move on.

I totally disagree with this^^. Moreover, I think engaging in such baseless and negative projections is a destructive element in your road to self growth and improvement, and in your mental and emotional health. Outside of limited legal reasons, I see virtually nothing positive in it.

If I'm wrong. So be it. It's not a crime to hire a private investigator nor is it unhealthy to attempt to verify the truth about your life and try to narrow down the problems in your relationship with your wife. People with nothing to hide don't sweat being investigated or questioned.


I do. I don't consent to warrantless searches either, and NOT b/c I "have something to hide" - but b/c I deeply cherish my liberty and privacy, and resent needless intrusions into either.

1. We both agree, for different reasons that verbally asking his wife about her cheating again isn't wise.

2. Sure some women leave men without cheating and my original post allowed for the fact I could be mistaken by telling him to investigate the truth about his life; however, Mahhhty's wife's behavior to date, including her obviously wayward behavior at the family's Christmas party this past week is entirely consistent with the likelihood that his wife is currently in an extra-marital relationship. It's undeniably likely. I'd surmise about a 80% likelihood. Actually her inviting him to the party and her families reaction tells me she still has feelings for him and that he's a good guy certainly not an abusive husband of a typical walk away wife. His wife cornering him and crying with him is an indication that she still needs him and her isolating herself and leaving early is an indication that the reality of the situation is overwhelming and she'd rather escape back into affair fantasy land rather than feeling the shame of her lies and pretending in front of her family. In my experience, a walk away wife generally seeks the support of family whereas waywards tend to isolate and avoid anyone, including family, who do not (or wouldn't if they knew) support their behavior.

3. 25years said that if he discovers the truth then "POOF! There goes the self improvement and here comes the self righteousness.". This is not always the case. He is here and we can help him process both. I actually see this as an indication that you don't believe Mahhhty can handle the truth about his life. Besides, some people can't forgive adultery and choose to divorce and those individuals can be as "self-righteous" as they want to be (albeit, not forever). It's a completely normal response to such devastating news; but, it doesn't mean that they can also work on self-improvement too as they accept their new reality. They were cheated upon and lied to. As Michelle Davis says: "Affairs suck. They suck the life out of marriages".

Michelle also says this about infidelity:

As a marriage therapist for two decades, I've heard countless clients confess that the discovery of an affair was the lowest, darkest moment of their entire lives. And because affairs shatter trust, many seriously contemplate ending their marriages in divorce after infidelity occurs.

However, it's important to know that, no matter how bleak things might seem, it's possible to revitalize a marriage wounded by infidelity. It's not easy- there are no quick-fix, one-size-fits-all solutions to save a marriage from divorce- but years of experience has taught me that there are definite patterns to what people in loving relationships do to bring their marriages back from the brink of disaster.

In other words, IF Mahhty's wife is, in fact, an infidel, his marriage is on the "brink of disaster". It is in worse shape than a not so simple walk away wife situation. It will be the "lowest, darkest moment of [mahhhty's] entire life". Whether Mahhty snoops or investigates the truth an discovers this or not....if it happened....IT HAPPENED. So rather than simply denying it might be the case but don't check because that will hurt you and won't help you focus on fixing yourself is simply denying reality.

In my opinion, Mahhhty needs to rule out the likely fact that his wife is cheating on him FIRST such that he can assess his wants and desires regarding this marriage honestly, and if he chooses to attempt to recover, he can research and consult professionals and peers like us to figure out what the "definite patterns to what people in loving relationships did to bring their marriages back from the brink of disaster" due to infidelity versus mere separation.

4. Although adultery doesn't have a lot of relevance in most states, it still has some in many. Especially if the Judge happens to be a former betrayed spouse or particularly religious. Ironically, if you are right about the OP being in New Hampshire then adultery actually has significant statutory relevance (and may be a large reason his wife is hurrying the divorce along while keeping the affair very quiet). In NH, adultery is relevant with regards to property division, alimony AND even custody of the children. Note also, NH may require marital counseling as well and if a Judge is presented evidence of adultery AND a betrayed spouse (like Mahhty) willing to forgive, such judge is hopefully more likely to order marriage counseling in such cases even over the adamant objection of the wayward spouse.

NEW HAMPSHIRE DIVORCE LAW SUMMARY

LEGAL GROUNDS FOR DIVORCE:  A divorce from the bonds of matrimony may be granted on the following grounds:
No Fault - Irreconcilable differences which have caused the irremediable breakdown of the marriage.
Fault - A divorce from the bonds of matrimony shall be decreed in favor of the innocent party for any of the following causes:
1. Impotency of either party. 
2. Adultery of either party. 
3. Extreme cruelty of either party to the other.
4. Conviction of either party, in any state or federal district, of a crime punishable with imprisonment for more than one year and actual imprisonment under such conviction. 
5. When either party has so treated the other as seriously to injure health or endanger reason. 
6. When either party has been absent 2 years together, and has not been heard of. 
7. When either party is an habitual drunkard, and has been such for 2 years together. 
8. When either party has joined any religious sect or society which professes to believe the relation of husband and wife unlawful, and has refused to cohabit with the other for 6 months together.
9. When either party, without sufficient cause, and without the consent of the other, has abandoned and refused, for 2 years together, to cohabit with the other.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapters:  458:7 and 458:7-a]

MEDIATION OR COUNSELING REQUIREMENTS:  In the event of any action the court shall, no later than the respondent's filing of an appearance, require the parties to attend a 4-hour information session. This session shall be a seminar on how to help the children deal with the issues surrounding divorce, separation, and the allocation of parental rights and responsibilities. 
In all cases involving disputed parental rights and responsibilities or grandparents' visitation rights, including requests for modification of prior orders, the court may order the parties to participate in mediation.  
Whenever, before or during a hearing but before a final decree, the court shall determine that there is a likelihood for rehabilitation of the marriage relationship, the court shall refer the parties to an appropriate counseling agency within its jurisdiction, which referral may be made according to RSA 167-B or as the parties request, with the approval of the court. If the court determines that there is a reasonable possibility of reconciliation, the court shall continue the proceedings and require that both parties submit to marriage counseling.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapters:  458-D:2 , 458:7-b, and 461-A:7]

PROPERTY DISTRIBUTION:  New Hampshire is an equitable distribution state, meaning that the court tries to distribute property equitably between the parties.  The court shall presume that an equal division is an equitable distribution of property, unless the court decides that an equal division would not be appropriate or equitable after considering one or more of the following factors:  (a) The duration of the marriage. (b) The age, health, social or economic status, occupation, vocational skills, employability, separate property, amount and sources of income, needs and liabilities of each party. (c) The opportunity of each party for future acquisition of capital assets and income. (d) The ability of the custodial parent, if any, to engage in gainful employment without substantially interfering with the interests of any minor children in the custody of said party. (e) The need of the custodial parent, if any, to occupy or own the marital residence and to use or own its household effects. (f) The actions of either party during the marriage which contributed to the growth or diminution in value of property owned by either or both of the parties. (g) Significant disparity between the parties in relation to contributions to the marriage, including contributions to the care and education of the children and the care and management of the home. (h) Any direct or indirect contribution made by one party to help educate or develop the career or employability of the other party and any interruption of either party's educational or personal career opportunities for the benefit of the other's career or for the benefit of the parties' marriage or children. (i) The expectation of pension or retirement rights acquired prior to or during the marriage. (j) The tax consequences for each party. (k) The value of property that is allocated by a valid prenuptial contract made in good faith by the parties. (l) The fault of either party as specified in RSA 458:7 if said fault caused the breakdown of the marriage and: (1) Caused substantial physical or mental pain and suffering; or (2) Resulted in substantial economic loss to the marital estate or the injured party.(m) The value of any property acquired prior to the marriage and property acquired in exchange for property acquired prior to the marriage. (n) The value of any property acquired by gift, devise, or descent. (o) Any other factor that the court deems relevant.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapter:  458:16-a]

ALIMONY/MAINTENANCE/SPOUSAL SUPPORT:   Upon motion of either party for alimony payments, the court shall make orders for the payment of alimony to the party in need of alimony, either temporary or permanent, for a definite or indefinite period of time, if the motion for alimony payments is made within 5 years of the decree of nullity or divorce and the court finds that:
The party in need lacks sufficient income, property, or both, including property apportioned in accordance with RSA 458:16-a, to provide for such party's reasonable needs, taking into account the style of living to which the parties have become accustomed during the marriage;  
The party from whom alimony is sought is able to meet reasonable needs while meeting those of the party seeking alimony, taking into account the style of living to which the parties have become accustomed during the marriage; and 
The party in need is unable to be self-supporting through appropriate employment at a standard of living that meets reasonable needs or is allocated parental rights and responsibilities under RSA 461-A for a child of the parties whose condition or circumstances make it appropriate that the parent not seek employment outside the home.
In determining the amount of alimony, the court shall consider the length of the marriage; the age, health, social or economic status, occupation, amount and sources of income, the property awarded in the divorce settlement, vocational skills, employability, estate, liabilities, and needs of each of the parties; the opportunity of each for future acquisition of capital assets and income; the fault of either party; and the federal tax consequences of the order.   [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapter:  458:19]
SPOUSE'S NAME:  In any proceeding under this chapter, except an action for legal separation, the court may, when a decree of divorce or nullity is made, restore a former name of the spouse, regardless of whether a request therefore had been included in the petition.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapter:  458:24]

CHILD CUSTODY:  In determining parental rights and responsibilities under this section, including residential responsibility, the court shall not apply a preference for one parent over the other because of the sex of the child, the sex of a parent, or the financial resources of a parent.  In determining parental rights and responsibilities, the court shall be guided by the best interests of the child, and shall consider the following factors:
a. The relationship of the child with each parent and the ability of each parent to provide the child with nurture, love, affection, and guidance. 
b. The ability of each parent to assure that the child receives adequate food, clothing, shelter, medical care, and a safe environment. 
c. The child's developmental needs and the ability of each parent to meet them, both in the present and in the future. 
d. The quality of the child's adjustment to the child's school and community and the potential effect of any change. 
e. The ability and disposition of each parent to foster a positive relationship and frequent and continuing physical, written, and telephonic contact with the other parent, except where contact will result in harm to the child or to a parent. 
f. The support of each parent for the child's contact with the other parent as shown by allowing and promoting such contact. 
g. The support of each parent for the child's relationship with the other parent. 
h. The relationship of the child with any other person who may significantly affect the child. 
i. The ability of the parents to communicate, cooperate with each other, and make joint decisions concerning the children. 
j. Any evidence of abuse, as defined in RSA 173-B:1, I or RSA 169-C:3, II, and the impact of the abuse on the child and on the relationship between the child and the abusing parent. 
k. If a parent is incarcerated, the reason for and the length of the incarceration, and any unique issues that arise as a result of incarceration. 
l. Any other additional factors the court deems relevant.
If the court finds by clear and convincing evidence that a minor child is of sufficient maturity to make a sound judgment, the court may give substantial weight to the preference of the mature minor child as to the determination of parental rights and responsibilities. Under these circumstances, the court shall also give due consideration to other factors which may have affected the minor child's preference, including whether the minor child's preference was based on undesirable or improper influences.  [Based on New Hampshire Statutes - Chapters:  461-A:6]

Link to New Hampshire Divorce Law Summary Article

Now, of course, if Mahhty still wants to save his marriage, MWD doesn't advocate being extremely litigious as the divorce system is designed to get you divorced and trying to aggressively fight a divorce case actually results in destroying the possibility of recovery. That being said, again, Mattthy may not desire to save his marriage should he discover his wife is having an affair. Such discovery could completely destroy him and any remaining desire he may have to reconcile with his wife and BEFORE he simply waives all his rights to counter file for divorce on the grounds of adultery, fight for a better property division, fight to reduce alimony and fight to protect his children and get more custody ....he should be aware of what legal rights he may be foregoing by not simply eliminating adultery as a large reason why she's divorcing him.

Mahhty should be aware that I've met and helped MANY bitter divorced men who regret going the easy route during the divorce process HOPING against hope that by being nice, trusting and friendly during the divorce process they will somehow get a better shot at saving their marriage only to discover after the paperwork is done that their ex-wife is getting engaged to their guy formerly known as "he's just a good friend" from work, or the gym, or the church choir, etc. Because of this, I simply think that KNOWING the truth about your situation and what has probably already occurred is a healthier way to go about getting divorced AND/OR possibly recovering your marriage than denial (and working on extraneous problems that probably don't even exist...more on that later).

5. I agree an adultery case might be difficult to prove and not result in a recovery of his marriage; however, if he is to forego such right [to counter-file on the grounds of adultery and all that doing so change his potential legal settlement] he should do so in awareness of all the facts of his situation.

6. Investigating the truth doesn't change the truth. If Mahhty's wife has been cheating on him, as I suspect, it's already happened and it's already happening. Snooping out this fact won't change it. It would be a fact at that point and a fact mahhty could process and react as he, himself, chooses. Doing so sure prevents a lot of resentment later on should he then discover he was played the fool by a manipulative lying wayward.

7. Despite the fact that you have never seen it work, not exposing the children to unrelated overnight guests of the opposite sex is standard language, IF REQUESTED, in many temporary and even many permanent custody orders. I'm guessing you don't practice divorce law because this is a pretty basic demand in many states (I don't know if NH is one of those states but it may come down to the judge assigned the case anyway). Whether Mahhty discovers an affair or not, he probably has a right to request such provision in their divorce decree as well. It's in the best interests of the children not to expose them to immoral extra-marital relationships as well as unmarried overnight guests after the divorce. This isn't about punishing his wife or any wayward...it's about protecting children.

8. 25years stated: "It does NOT protect your kids at all, unless your w is 1) having an affair, AND 2) introducing them to the OM
AND 3) the OM is somehow very morally deficient....AND dangerous". This is a major philosophical difference of opinion between 25 years and myself. I believe that IF your wife is having an affair, then she AND the OM are, by definition, morally deficient AND dangerous to your children. Unfortunately, it's impractical and improbably in today's culture and most legal systems that you can protect your children from your potentially wayward wife; however, any protection you can provide them from OM, by law, would be prudent to, at least, pursue OR NOT (at least you got to choose knowing the facts). Good men do not pursue and have relationships with married women with small children, but abusers and pedophiles do (I'm not saying it's likely OM is a pedophile but pedophiles DO exist and they would seek out vulnerable married women with children to suit their sick desires. Even 25years acknowledges that this happens when she said "I'm a L and I have seen this happen, maybe 2-3 times out of oh, 400 times...". That's a 1% chance and that's just the cases that 25years knows about. Most child abuse comes out MANY YEARS later and even then wouldn't be brought to the old divorce lawyers attention. But, if i could protect my children from even a 1% chance of being abused, I'd do it regardless of the effects on my potential divorce/recovery outcome. This children come first and I wouldn't allow anyone to presume my wife is a good person and a good judge of affair partner character so OM is MOST LIKELY a good guy. I'd want to make that assessment myself.

9. 25years said. The truth will come out and that kids are smart and figure it out on their own. She said: "I'm NOT saying to lie for your spouse (IF IF IF there is an OM) but I am saying it's not your job to point the finger." If it's not a parent's job to inform their children of the truth about their lives than who's job is it????? I think 25 years presumes a vindictive nature to any such communications with the children whereas I presume and would encourage a loving informative one. One doesn't have to blame to tell someone the truth. Children ARE smarter than we think and can figure this stuff out over time but they need to know initially that it's not their fault. Kids are narcissists and think everything good or bad involves or results from them. Also, kids have instincts which tell them that is' wrong for Mahhty's mom to move out and it would be wrong for her to have a boyfriend while married to their dad so with the facts...they themselves can decide whether or not to "blame" anyone. I'm also not advocating exposure here, pre-divorce while mahhty is trying to save his marriage but someday after any divorce merely discussing this stuff with his children in an age appropriate may be beneficial BEFORE his likely wayward wife puts a spin on the whole thing. Finally, it will FOREVER be impossible for Mahhty to explain the divorce if he doesn't really fully understand the reasons behind it himself (i.e. - IF she's having an affair).

10. 25years asked me "have you read the reasons why DB and the author, MWD OPPOSES snooping? B/C she does. It's NOT a tenet of DBing except in the circumstances mentioned". I have read most all of MWD's writings. I've also seen her speak in person. MWD does NOT oppose snooping to discover an affair. In fact, she finds it necessary in order for the betrayed spouse to eventually confront the wayward spouse (and~or the other person) and, to analyze what needs the OM is meeting as a means of figuring out what the betrayed spouse wasn't doing adequately in the marriage and fixing THAT. Here's a quote from Michelle regarding online infidelity (which may be the case here)

4. If you are convinced that nothing in your marriage will change unless and until your spouse is confronted with hard evidence about his/her behaviour, then you might consider purchasing a software product that takes "snapshots" of online activity for review later."

All of MWD advice against snooping presupposes the betrayed spouse actually KNOWS they are a betrayed spouse. She finds it unhealthy and unproductive for betrayed spouses to go on a campaign of surveillance. Though I personally disagree to some extent this isn't a forum for my personal opinion. We are to share MWD's opinions and discuss our interpretations of those stated opinions. My advice that was strictly limited to investigating the truth about his life and trying to merely rule out the likely circumstance that his wife is ACTIVELY cheating on him as we debate this issue is entirely consistent with MWD's advice and opinions. (but I'd love to see her chime in and tell me I'm mistaken. being wrong doesn't bother me in the least).

I've also heard MWD, in person, advocate open monitoring of spouses during the piecing process. Meaning sharing of passwords, leaving phones open and available, etc.,.......presumably providing for consensual "snooping" in order to rebuild trust after infidelity, but that's not being discussed herein.

11. 25years said: "Finally, you have issues to own and there's simply no way you can do that when your attention is on blaming her for having an affair you don't have any proof of anyhow." I submit his attention on the possibility she is having an affair is already persistent. As a former betrayed husband myself, I can attest to the fact that he likely considers this possibility A LOT. I actually think ruling it out would actually free up MORE brain power to address his situation than currently exists as he constantly wonders what she is doing and who she might be with. Also, presuming he has many issues to address is mind reading. He sounds like a pretty nice hard working loving husband who merely got caught up with work and his career and neglected his wife. IF she is cheating on him, her recently revealed accusation that he cheated on her years ago is likely a wayward manipulative smoke screen trying to deflect attention from HER wayward behavior. Now...if it's true and he did cheat (and only he knows the truth)....THAT would need to be seriously considered and worked upon; but if he didn't, then why spend another moment sweating it. If they get to recovery and the accusation still holds...THEN it can be addressed as a real concern of his wife; but, as of now, we have no idea if his wife actually believes he cheated or if she just threw that out there to get the spotlight off her.

12. 25years said: "clearly the whole snooping and PI ideas ALL have as the goal, making her the one at fault". Snooping doesn't make his wife at fault committing adultery does. I never assigned blame in my posts anyway, I merely suggested he discover what I see is the likely truth about the demise of his marriage. That truth INCLUDES his behavior but he already is aware of the things he did/does wrong. I also never said he should expose anything to anyone pre divorce as long as he attempts to reconcile. Pursuant to WMD, he should confront his wife with the truth. That is not "scorching the earth".

13. 25years disagreed with my statement: "Plus, she'll want to go to her grave holding the secret and realize reconciliation with you built upon a lie would be pointless. Thus, discovering the truth also increases your odds of reconciliation.". She thought it was unhealthy, speculative and projection. I stand by it. The truth shall set you free. If your wife is cheating, you catch her and confront her AND stand there willing to forgive her and reconcile with her THEN you INCREASE SUBSTANTIALLY your chances of actually recovering your marriage versus letting her walk all over you in court and protecting her secret (by not figuring it out). She will presume you would never forgive her, you didn't and don't really care (or you would have caught her) and/or that there is too much risk you will find out and end up shaming her or worse. In fact, even if she wanted to reconcile because she realized what she'd thrown away...she might not approach you out of fear of hurting you when you discover what she's done. The lie will saddle her from even considering it. The lie could paralyze her from doing anything. She may think you are better off without her (wayward's often battle extreme depression and self-worth issues). Knowing you know and are willing to forgive her is a BIG DEAL....IT PROVES YOU LOVE HER more than any other words can convey.

14. 25years said: "I don't consent to warrantless searches either, and NOT b/c I "have something to hide" - but b/c I deeply cherish my liberty and privacy, and resent needless intrusions into either.". I've not advocated anything illegal such as warrantless searches. This isn't a police action. It is entirely legal for Mahhhty to hire a Private Investigator to verify whether or not his wife is having an affair. It may also be legal for him in his state to use voice activated recording devices and/or GPS devices to independently verify his wife's behavior. His wife doesn't even have to be made aware of this if he chooses not to confront or do anything much about it. If she's cheating she already knows what she is doing. As far as accountability in marriage, your insistence on privacy in marriage is a personal one and not supported by MWD's writings and advice for reconciling couples. Heck, I'm a betrayed husband and my lovely wife is free to snoop on me at any time. I encourage it. She and I hold each other accountable. Being a human is difficult. We are all vulnerable to affairs and keeping secrets is often the first step. Plus, help walking a decent moral path all the time is highly appreciated by me. I/we value my marriage and family over my/our privacy. Your mileage may vary.

15. I hope this post makes it in in it's entirety. I'm really trying to understand the writings and teachings of WMD and relate them to my ministry helping struggling couples in our church. If I make a mistake please correct me and/or discuss it with me. I've tried to research what MWD would say or think but concede my interpretations may not be correct. For example, my interpretation of the 180 plan, as written by MWD in her book, appears to contradict that opinions of the 180 here on the forum. Mahhty is a good example. It is understood that Mahhty's wife likely felt neglected and taken for granted while Mahhty was working like a dog and traveling way too much for work. She felt put upon and neglected. Thus, a proper 180 would not have him detaching and completely GAL'ing (to the point of ignoring her but GAL'ing some is certainly healthy), rather he would do a 180 from what drove her away from him initially and had communicated he didn't care by actually engaging with her to the greatest extent possible, trying to spend as much time with her as she would allow, inviting her over and chasing her to a point (not over doing it to the point of being needy or desperate). In short, you don't neglect a neglected wife...you do the opposite of that (180) to the extent you can. That's my interpretation.

16. Go Dawgs....Sic 'em!!!

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Georgia BD, I see you have few posts but none are about you and your experience.

Have you read DB? This is a sharing and caring community here. I think it's unfair for people to drop in out of the sky and start giving advice when we know nothing about them.

Granted you could make up a story and we might be none the wiser, but those people usually get bored and move on.

I don't think sharing my story on Mahhty's thread would be appropriate but then would starting a thread called "me" be appropriate? I am not here for help but to help others. I'm a former betrayed husband in a recovered marriage. I very much love my wife and we've been reconciled for many years. She and I both volunteer our time with the marriage ministry at our large church. I consider helping out on forums a part of my personal ministry as well. We have read and discussed just about every major book on the subject out there. We also discuss many of my posts before I submit them.

Hope that's enough for now. Someday when I'm off restriction maybe I'll have PM access and you can ask me more questions if you desire.

I also wanted to say that my advice applies equally to both genders. I tend to be attracted to the more relatable male stories on this forum but my directness about wayward wives is equally as direct when discussing wayward husbands. I actually hold wayward husband's to an even higher standard as the leaders of their families and marriages but that's another story and another day. The point is, I don't harbor any bitterness or resentment towards my long ago former wayward wife that is somehow being injected into my posts as hatred or meanness towards any wayward person or situation on this forum. I/we believe all way wards (male or female) are selfish self entitled monsters that need to be saved from their folly, not vindictively beaten into submission. As MWD suggests, I loved my wife back to our marriage years ago. Most forums believe that is impossible, but I lived it. I was personally more aggressive than seems to be suggested on these forums. I lovingly fought for my marriage and family versus just "standing" but I still very much appreciate MWD for having and conveying hope for even the most egregious marital situations. I, too, thought my marriage was over. It was not. There is always hope.

[mahhhty]

Had a transition today (picked up the kids are her apartment). I did fairly well. Both of our kids came down with the flu and she has had them the last couple days dealing with that. I offered help multiple times but wasn't taken up on it. Today when I picked them up, she to offered help to me. Something to the effect "If you need anything let me know." I appreciated it although I didn't take her up on it either.

Looking forward with the holiday's behind us, it is going to be easy to detach. All of our transitions will be at Daycare (run by her Mom). So presumably, I will barely see her. This also makes me somewhat sad, as I thought we were making some progress. Most likely she will begin with the questions about divorce related tasks soon or wait until after her birthday which is the middle of this month.

I suspect it is time to get things moving again towards the divorce, but I am letting her make the first move. As for things around the house, she has a lot of stuff still here, I need to make a point of getting it out.

[mahhhty]

Another interesting thing happened over the weekend. I hung out with a coworker/friend from college. I worked and went to school with her and her ex-husband. I was supposed to paddle with both of them and some other friends, however, he bailed and she came.

I had some alone time with her in the car and she talked about her divorce with me. Her and the ex had some real big problems, substance abuse, cheating, etc. However, even with that they are now hanging out and she talks about him like she wants to be with him. I thought it was very odd, but re-assuring that no one can foresee the future.

[lost18]

Sounds like you're doing well. As you know I am no expert but maybe be more specific with your 180's. For example, what are you doing to be more attractive or happier.

Try not to mind read too much (I should really take my own advice! :)) about her questions and moving toward D. My IC tells me only to deal with what is coming at me. So until she makes that move try not to stress about it.

[mahhhty]

Cadet posted this on another feed. I want to remember it and therefore am reposting here.

"People come here [to DB] to fix their marriage, they leave after they have fixed themselves."

Thanks Cadet!