New England Newcomer

[mahhhty]

Mozza - Good stuff for a rough night. A lot to think about but definitely helpful.

As long as you think: "She should come back because I made all these changes", it's not changes that will remain once she's back. It has to become you, not just the BDing you. If you knew today she's never come back, would you continue your changes? Detach until you can say yes.

I am definitely guilty of this. I think I am still guilty of grieving, and therefore am not fully committed to the new me. But you are definitely right.

[Mozza]

The reason I know it too I well is that I am in the same position. Only, I know I'm not there yet. It takes patience, even for ourselves.

(By the way, your signature is a little confusing. Who was unhappy and wants a D? It reads like its you. If it's W, put quotation marks of use "W is unhappy".)

[mahhhty]

Thanks Mozza.

She did renege on our agreement about Xmas Eve and Xmas. But then this morning she turned around and agreed to come over to see the kids. Before she came over her father called and invited me to go to their house for Xmas with my in laws. She originally invited me "Because I know you want to see your nieces" (this obviously isn't a very good reason). For her reasoning and because of our previous conversation (where she identified that she didn't want me to go) I said no thank you. Anyway, her father invited me and I spoke to her when she came over and said that I would go.

It was rough, awkward and difficult. It threw me through a loop. I also saw her in a different light. It seemed to me as forced happiness. This is not the girl I married.

Detach. Detach. Detach.

[mahhhty]

Just heard this....

"Some people lose sight of what is important, but that doesn't mean they can't find their way again."

[lost18]

Hope you're doing ok.

[25yearsmlc]

Georgia, please don't take my quoting your post as a slight. I do disagree with a lot of this but not all - and simply think this is the best way to show a difference in opinion.

(Plus, you're a Bulldog and I went to Auburn, so there's that... WAR EAGLE )

When they say "ILYBNILWY", it's typically, but not always, because they have a point of comparison. It's wayward wife speak for I love someone else now.

Georgia Bulldogs... I just quoted the top, but the entire post is definitely relevant. She has never been a person to lie or withhold things. However, as time went on, she withheld the affair acquisition and withheld the idea of her happiness from me. Our communication as a couple was awful (but great as parents), and our love languages were not being spoken.
KEY IN ON THIS^^^ b/c frankly, even if there is an OM, this LL matters a lot.

FTR, I'm NOT big on snooping unless you KNOW it'd be a definitive deal breaker for you. If you are POSITIVE of that, snoop away and then file if you find an OM.


(But IF it is not, then why bother?) You're not under the same roof now anyhow.


I am cognizant that there could be another man and I'll find out about it after the divorce. But after asking 4 times I can't ask again. I've been dealing with it by telling myself that it is something I can't control.

I don't think you should ask her again either. Waywards lie.


I don't think you should ask her again b/c it does not matter AND OR help YOU to ask. Asking so often is all about YOU , not about how "way wards lie".

And if there is no OM ---what would it take to convince you that there ist one?

Then if you keep on asking , I think a slight chance exists that you'll have pushed her into an idea she had not fully contemplated. It certainly makes you look needy/petty and jealous and NOT focused on what she'd like you to focus on. I wonder what SHE would say if she were here...


A lot more women leave marriages without OPs, than men. Statistically speaking it is a rare woman with children who simply leaves her h and marriage unless something essential, INSIDE the marriage, was missing. And she did not believe it would come back...

OR, less often but still not rare, is the woman who is missing something within HER...

You can probably state with some certainty, that she's NO 'serial cheater' so if there is an OM, now, how does that change your path of self improvement?

To ME, the biggest reason NOT to snoop is b/c if there is an OP, the growth and path that the lbs had been on, radically alters.

Now, suddenly - the LBS was a GREAT SPOUSE (what 'issues'?) and it's ONLY b/c of the OP that their WAS is now a "cheating lying scum bag" and

POOF! There goes the self improvement and here comes the self righteousness.



I'm also not suggesting you investigate and snoop on your wife indefinitely.

I'm merely proposing that you rule out the fact that it's likely she's having an affair with another person and THAT is what is ripping your family apart versus strictly just a MLC sort of thing.

I submit there are other options than these 2^^^...far more...it's just not this^^ simple.


Your wife seems in a hurry to rap this divorce up and that's probably because she wants to be able to tell people (including OM's friends and family) that they started dating around the time or after she ended up divorcing. Years done the road that history will again be revised to say they met and started dating as she (they) were already exiting or divorced from awful spouses.


Wow, massive mind reading of a woman none of us knows...and IMO, Not helping.

You mention waiting until after the divorce to find this out but were you aware the divorce process itself gives you the power and right to discovery??? IF you make an initial outside verification that there IS actually an OM (maybe hire a PI) then you can perhaps request a deposition or send some simple interrogatories asking for written or testimonial verification about the truth of your divorce.


TO WHAT END???? ADULTERY IS NOT RELEVANT TO CUSTODY IN ANY STATE-- (absent dangerous or sexual conduct in front of the children). You want to claim she's unfit as a parent??

You want to sue her for adultery as grounds for divorce? Okay in a FEW states that is an option...here are the D laws in NH, which I believe you reside in.

"The vast majority of divorces in New Hampshire are no-fault.

It is possible, however, to state a cause for divorce in New Hampshire for one or more of the following reasons:

impotence,
extreme cruelty,
adultery,

(If adultery is charged, the “co-respondent” must be named in the petition, i.e. the person with whom your spouse is committing adultery),

conviction of a crime punishable for more than one year of incarceration,

treatment by one spouse of the other that could seriously injure health,

abandonment by one spouse of the other for a period of at least two years,

when one party has been in an habitual drunken state for a period of over two years, or

when one party joins a religious sect or society that believes the relations between husband and wife are unlawful and who refuses to cohabit for a period of 6 months or longer.

How To Prove Adultery
There is most likely no such thing as a pleasant adultery case because names, dates, places, paramours, and the like have to be brought out in the open. If your spouse no longer cares about what you know and is open about the affair, you're lucky. You can then catch your spouse flagrante delicto, which means you have essentially caught your spouse in the act and may not have to worry about hiring detectives. However, you may still need a detective to prove your case in court. There is still a need for a corroborative witness, such as a mutual friend or neighbor, who has no stake in the matter except telling the court what he (she) witnessed.

You REALLY want to do this?^^^^ And if so, why? To assign blame? What purpose does that serve? She's not asking to sleep with you so NO argument about an STD fear can be made...

IF it's about money and a lot of it, then maybe I could see it...but I don't see it in this state. IT does NOT change custody and you already are splitting it evenly, right?



Phone records could be requested and depending no the state you could even depose the OM. You also may have the right to specifically demand that your children not be exposed to OM in the custody order.


Unless he is a danger to the kids (and here we are, assuming there IS an OM)...I've never seen ^^ this work. Ever.

This isn't a matter of punishing your wife. This is matter of documenting your life and protecting your children.


Sorry but I So disagree with this assessment^^ that I can barely not capitalize everything.
It does NOT protect your kids at all,

unless your w is 1) having an affair, AND 2) introducing them to the OM
AND 3) the OM is somehow very morally deficient....AND dangerous,

in which case your w has a lot of problems you are glossing over and have not mentioned at all here.

If you end up divorced and THEN try to discover or verify she's dating someone else she'll just say she started seeing him that week or the last month and you are a crazy possessive jealous EX husband with no right to invade or questions her choices and decisions. The OM could be some perverted child molester with a criminal history but you'll have missed your opportunity to document or discover any of that and protect your children.

Wow,^^^ that is some wildly baseless & negative projecting going on...yeah, I'm a L and I have seen this happen, maybe 2-3 times out of oh, 400 times...

Never in an educated career woman, however and never with someone who sounds otherwise pretty normal...are there ANY indications that your wife would over look such a glaringly deviant behavior in OM and expose them to your kids?

B/C you may as well accuse her of being an UNFIT total hosebag scoundrel while you're at it...

and any pretense of a decent relationship going forward, will evaporate. There ARE risks to this "Scorched earth" policy, which is what I see it as.


I KNOW you trust your wife and think looking her dead in the eye will give you some sense of veracity and that her prior trustworthiness and upstanding behavior means you should give her a lot of latitude. I also know that you think NOT trusting her will upset her but she is divorcing you and has PROBABLY been cheating on you for quite awhile and she is PROBABLY manipulating your lack of trust to make you feel bad hoping you'll stop investigating her while completely abusing you to your face and behind your back. Years from now...absent documenting the truth before the divorce, she'll rewrite your marital history to everyone around you including your children. Sure you may share YOUR side but your children won't know what to believe because there won't be any proof requiring anyone to tell the truth. The divorce will become mostly YOUR fault.


Total disagreement. I think the truth ALWAYS prevails, kids are smart, and the messenger of "doom" often gets blamed. IF your wife is now having an affair (and she may not have had one at all AND OR she may have begun a r with OM after the sep or after she told you she wanted one; many if not most WASs feel that once they've openly declared their intent to leave the m, they are free to date. They will NOT see it as an affair and chances are, many others will agree.

ANYHOW, the fact is that later on, the kids ask questions and are smarter than we credit them with being.

I've seen the following event or ones like it, happen a dozen times.

Eventually the kids know that "New Guy"and mom have "dated" 5 years and their "anniversary" is on the 16th, but hold on, wait a minute, "you and dad were still married then!...""""

And the truth comes out. The LBS who has not pointed the finger comes out smelling like a rose for not staining the image the kids have of EACH parent. And when you sully the spouse, the other parent, you DO harm the esteem of each child b/c each child feels that a part of THEM< is from each parent. So if the other parent is a cheating b--", then some part of them isn't so great....

I think this is all euphemisms for vindictiveness and under the guise of "truth seeking" & we are appointing our selves judge and jury (while absolving ourselves of anything "Serious" or "morally wrong"....unlike our spouses....and IMO we harm the kids far more than letting them figure it out themselves, would.
I'm NOT saying to lie for your spouse (IF IF IF there is an OM) but I am saying it's not your job to point the finger.

ALso, have you read the reasons why DB and the author, MWD OPPOSES snooping? B/C she does. It's NOT a tenet of DBing except in the circumstances mentioned.

Finally, you have issues to own and there's simply no way you can do that when your attention is on blaming her for having an affair you don't have any proof of anyhow. And btw, WHY did your w believe you had an affair on a trip you took?

Strategically for your divorce and for your own health and sanity, please independent verify the truth about your (and your daughter's) life. It may really suck to find out I was right, but it'll be worse if you find out a year from now and find yourself already the bad guy and if you complain or talk about it THEN you'll just be the mean old vindictive ex-husband and you'll play right into the trap of it all being YOUR fault.

Why do we care who is "at fault" so much? Where is this contest? Who is the "Winner"? I don't get it...I really don't. The kids are not an issue here. They are sharing them. Why must we assume she's filling the kids with bad news about her h? She may tell her family one thing to justify leaving but they know better already!

This is not a contest of who is at fault. IT's a marriage that may tragically end. And that is enough of a tragedy, isn't it? MUST we appoint a bad guy?

B/C clearly the whole snooping and PI ideas ALL have as the goal, making her the one at fault.

how is that morally superior in any way?


Finally.

Knowing the truth allows you to address the problems in your marriage honestly. Perhaps your marriage and family CAN be recovered someday, even after the divorce IF you know the truth. If you and your wife divorce and the secret affair remains a secret she may never consider recovery with you because she'll think you could never forgive her if you knew the truth.

But snooping, pointing the finger in blame and exposing the ALLEGED A, will INCREASE her belief in his forgiveness?????? Uh, no, I don't think this makes sense. Sorry




Plus, she'll want to go to her grave holding the secret and realize reconciliation with you built upon a lie would be pointless. Thus, discovering the truth also increases your odds of reconciliation.

Well, I'll just say this one last time and move on.

I totally disagree with this^^. Moreover, I think engaging in such baseless and negative projections is a destructive element in your road to self growth and improvement, and in your mental and emotional health. Outside of limited legal reasons, I see virtually nothing positive in it.

If I'm wrong. So be it. It's not a crime to hire a private investigator nor is it unhealthy to attempt to verify the truth about your life and try to narrow down the problems in your relationship with your wife. People with nothing to hide don't sweat being investigated or questioned.


I do. I don't consent to warrantless searches either, and NOT b/c I "have something to hide" - but b/c I deeply cherish my liberty and privacy, and resent needless intrusions into either.

[25yearsmlc]

Mahhty,

I see hope in your situation for several reasons. Your inlaws DO care about you, despite your MIL's concerns for her d.

You were smart to show up, despite the awkwardness. Everyone concerned knows YOU do not want this. Trust me, no one will be fooled by your wife's declaration of how "happy" she is. And in the event of an OM, no one will think she "just met' him either, (for however much that is worth to you.)

I'd back off of saying how 'resilient" the kids are however. We have no idea what this does to them but in my opinion

getting a divorce is a lot like running your kids over with a truck and hoping they'll be fine b/c after all, the surgeon's a great one with kids...

Yes, they will "Survive" in the sense that it won't literally kill them. AND IF you and your wife put them first, they really might be alright.

I have 5 brothers, 3 of whom are divorced. in ONE Case, where the divorce and custody were particularly acrimonious, I think all 3 of their kids are a bit messed up and now, only as they approach their mid-late 20s do they seem to be coming out of it.

The other 2 brothers had decent enough R's with their former wives and truly put their daughter's needs ahead of their squabbling. To MY knowledge, not once was child support or money or OPs ever mentioned to their d's.(Versus the other brother'd ex who wanted money AND shared custody including for her plastic surgery...oops)

Both of the nieces of the brothers with "Decent" divorces, have kind relationships with both parents and the married niece had a LOVELY wedding and her mom and my brother danced and seemed proud.

I toasted them for rising above their differences and really truly SHOWING UP for their daughter.

it showed b/c she's lovely and kind and I think she felt loved by both of them.

So there's that.

But never mind all that for now. Mah, I think the more you focus on yourself and become a man only a fool would leave,

the wackier/more foolish your wife will feel. There IS such a thing as falling in love with your spouse, all over again. It cannot be forced but it can be chosen.

I've seen it and I've done it. So has my husband.

And finally, in 2006 I told my sisters that my marriage was
'over" and that there "might be 10% chance of us reconciling" and I meant every word of it. I had become the WAS after nearly 2 years of being an LBS. But here I am.

I have 2 family members who finalized divorces, only to remarry their former spouses 5 years later, so that too, happens.

Just stay in your sandbox and do YOUR work. That way, no matter what, you really truly will be more than alright. And so will your children.

Besides, no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of her children and their dad. Some women stay married solely because of that.

Keep on being the best dad you can-

and none of this means you should be risking your financial security (or your kids') to accommodate your wife.
Be a man of strength and honor. I think that means Be fair, be reasonable, be flexible and be principled.

(Sometimes that last one has to take precedence over being flexible.)

(((( )))

[lost18]

many if not most WASs feel that once they've openly declared their intent to leave the m, they are free to date. They will NOT see it as an affair and chances are, many others will agree.

Totally agree, I said as much to my H and he agreed. Although I think he justifies himself this way I have a good feeling that deep down he knows he's wrong.

[mahhhty]

Lost - Thanks for checking up on me. Such a great support system we have on this message board.

25 - Great insight. It is very appreciated. At one point you asked why did she think I had an affair. In the end of 2012 I took a promotion and in July 2013 $hit hit the fan. From 7/5/2013 to the end of the year, I traveled over 95 days for work. I was pulling 100-120 hour weeks, working 7 days a week. I worked 25+ hours straight on 5 different occasions. I become consumed with work. I now that this made it even more difficult for us.

[mahhhty]

The odd behavior from Xmas Day has continued.

Friday via text she invited me to another in-law Xmas function. Her brother and his family came up from VA and they were doing a second Xmas at her sister's house. The reasoning this time was "I know you would like to see my brother." I agreed up front that I would go.

When I got there my nieces ran outside with my kids and her father to walk me in. The kids were really excited to see me and I am always excited to see them. Upon getting in the house her Grandmother came over to me, gave me a hug and told me she loved me. She did this at 5 different times through out the evening. I later found out that she was told that morning of what has been happening.

After I was there for 15 minutes or so, my W cornered me in the room with the kids and gave me a rundown of all the presents she gave people and everything they received, work items, etc. I could tell she was really trying to keep the conversation going. I was pleasant, responsive, and also tending to three girls who wanted to play with me. So I think that was good for me.

About an hour and a half later, she started being real busy, cleaning up, not holding conversations, it was like she was always in the next room, always missing from the crowd. Finally, I started saying goodbyes with the kids (b/c this was also a pick up for me), and we couldn't find her. As we went outside, she was there moving her car to leave. She told me that she was trying to sneak out and she didn't feel well. I thought this was very odd. She wasn't going to say goodbye to the kids or to me.

When the kids finally did say goodbye to her (as she was helping them in their carseats), she began to cry. I believe that she has been having a difficult time around the holidays.