I thought everything was okay...(Part 2)

[MCS]

Also, sending more smiles over to you, Vanilla. Here was the verse on my phone today.....

Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. (James 1 2-4 NIV)

[Vanilla]

Thank you
Returned x many

Vanilla

[Vanilla]

MCS

Now you have reflected, I know you have!

What precisely are your plans to release yourself from judgement of others?

Including W?

You know about the mote in the eye?

A good action plan is helpful, what is it?
Vanilla

[MCS]

You know about the mote in the eye?

A good action plan is helpful, what is it?

Vanilla,

Well I do now. Google is my friend.

Anyway, it does apply here. I think the main area that our M broke down that I was accountable for was the perception that I had requirements on her. Now, I look back and know that wasn't my intention ever, but that doesn't matter. We are where we are right now.

I can see that as we got busy with life, that my W was starting to feel that she could never 'live up' to my expectations. Now, it was quite the opposite and I always, always thought that she was a good wife/mom/professional. I never got angry when things didn't get done, especially since we did have a fairly good balance of work share with the kids and at home. However, I'm sure I'm guilty of showing that I may be annoyed once and a while. Normal marriage stuff. However, my main issue (she confirmed) with this is that I would just say that things needed to get done. I always used it as a generic statement with no expectations.

For example, if the kitchen was messy; I would say: "Oh, we need to clean the kitchen." Well, for her it was received as "Oh, you need to clean the kitchen." I can tell you there were really no expectations in what I said, I can say for me it was just listing a task that I didn't think needed to be done right away and furthermore I didn't feel like doing it at that point anyway. If I had the motivation later, I would do it. If not, I didn't expect her to do it.

Also, I knew that complacency took hold for me and I see that the positive reinforcement wasn't there from me. I guess from my standpoint that we had hit 'stride' in our lives. We had some ups and downs, but overall everything was going just fine. Well, that was from my point of view. Then as she was getting overwhelmed with things....and she felt that I expected her to do things like the paragraph above....and the intimacy was at a low, her self esteem started to drop. Well, then the friendship with OM started.

Anyway, that's the past. For now, I see that part of my struggle was that after BD, we went NC for a couple months. It was definitely dark as night. I knew that she needed 'space.' So I let her have as much as she needed. However, then she started to make some pretty hefty decisions that affected both of us without me at all. The house was the first huge one and that's when I confronted about OM. Well, OM took center stage for our interactions, until I realized that she wasn't ready to reconcile. However, since we had re-established communication; and she was still making pretty big decisions w/o me, I got reactive and guess what....expectations kicked back in. However now it was on her parenting. This was compounded with the destruction of my trust in her with me, but more notably with our kids. Especially, because from my point of view, I saw her putting OM above the kids both after BD but over the last year of our marriage. I

Well, since I put the temporary separation agreement together, I feel that those 'expectations' (really boundaries) are on paper. Before this, it didn't feel like she was honoring my verbal and email boundaries (she wasn't) and that's what got me in such a reactive situation especially as I was forced to be that way when she was making these huge decisions.

Anyway, for now my approach is to STFU with regard to her decisions, unless they violate our agreement. I debated if I could jump right into positive enforcement of her decisions; but a) I still don't agree with a bunch of them and b) if I did, at this point it would appear to be 'fake.'

Since she is just settling in the house and the holidays are coming up, I think I'm going to readdress adding some positive reinforcement after that. That's not to say, I'm going to shy away from any of it, but definitely try to keep it as reserved as possible.

So, MC (mediation) is tomorrow for us. She sent an email today saying she was going to talk about Holiday plans and her travel plans to her family. So, its good news because those both were part of the agreement. So it does look like she is honoring that right now.

Side note:

I do read over at HP thread right now and it feels to a certain extent that I'm being too accommodating if I act this way based on some of the Vets input to him. This change in me needs to happen, don't get me wrong. I'm just confused if I should be pushing for her to get her stuff out of the house and make like I'm moving on...

The difference I suppose its that, I do think that W realizes that the R with OM is over or won't go any further. So it may be that I'm in a different place in our sitch right now. IDK

[Vanilla]

I think your sitch is very different to that of HP.

To my eyes HP made the greatest changes before he and W split. He was very strong on the OM front, plus he had a lot of acceptance to do. In your sitch, it looks like the boundaries weren't set before the split and that now you will have to establish these. But actually as you are in the home with your children you can make the running.

If I were your W then I believe I would see your expectations especially about domestic harmony and cleaning as an attempt to control and possibly passive aggressive. Your W is separate from you and you are separate from W, neither should attempt to control the other.

Respecting her space is one great step forward and going dark should be for you. Two months isn't really a long dark period and not a lot of time to make impressive changes.

During the dark time did you GAL? Did you follow Sandis guidelines? What is different about you now after the dark period that would encourage W to give you a second look?

I am sure W doesn't agree with many of your decisions either. So detach and STFU. Validate her right to her opinions and if you don't agree and they are not to your benefit get L counsel and look after your rights in this.

There is quite a lot of discussions around the forums and a number of the vets are of the opinion that MC is a waste of money and effort if W has an active EA|PA (this is evident from the discussions on HPs thread). Mediation is useful in negotiating for your children and they must come first over everything. Whilst an A or its aftermath is going on then all discussion of progress in an R is irrelevant.
I firmly believe that OM is a symptom not a cause. MC may just be smoke and mirrors.

Frankly why should W honor any verbal or email boundaries?
I wouldn't unless I believed they were reasonable and H was strong on enforcing them. But then I am not in an A or affected by one. Under those circumstances I may choose to do what I pleased.

Your trust in W, why trust her and why should you expect to trust after an A? 100% of what they say etc

I don't trust my H any further than I can throw him. I don't expect to, it's unrealistic of me to do so. He is completely out of his own self control. That is how an A makes W behave, and her R with OM may or may not be over. Even if it over then the loss of the A can make W run down cheeseless tunnels for a long time. Her decisions will be out of kilter.

I am sure the vets will chip in if I am off beam here, but in order to move from stasis MCS then you need to Tango.

I am still awaiting your plan on giving up judging others.
Go GAL
Vanilla

[MCS]

Well, interesting counseling (mediation) session. She had sent an email prior saying she wanted to talk about Holiday plans. Well when we got started, she switched over to talking about permanently changing the kids' schedules. As you know, I've been pretty leery of sitch's she's put the kids in, last week we established that I'm having trouble trusting her and it would take me a while for her to earn that trust back. Well, I guess she figured a week was enough time, so she laid right in on it.

I reiterated (again) that the best sitch for the kids was for her to settle in her house, move her stuff out of our place and then we could figure out the schedule. We talked about this in our agreement.

There's a ton of issues that I'm going to have to let go but its not conducive to the kids' school, its about 25 minutes away and will add an extra hour onto their school schedule.

Well, when I said that we should wait until the things above, she blew up at me. I stayed calm and collected and just reiterated what we discussed this and other things in the agreement from last week. She continued to get madder at me. Anyway, this went on for a while complaining about a variety of things, but they were all the emotionally tough things in a separation that she's been avoiding. So as she would complain about something, me and the counsellor would try to get some compromise, but she wanted none of it.

Anyway, the weird thing was at one part, she said she didn't want to be in the house with me because she thought I may try to get her to do something. I was joking and said, "what would I handcuff you so you had to stay?" Well, she blew up saying how insensitive that was and it makes her feel horrible and anxious, etc.

Wow, I have no clue where this is coming from. As I've said before, she has said (after BD) that she feels emotionally unsafe (which I still can't figure out) with me. I've never had anyone say that they saw that about me as a person or in our marriage nor has she ever said it in the marriage. However, I partially bought into it until OM was discovered. Now, I think its a big and only part of her justification of the A and her reason for planning to leave me to be with him. This reaction that she had was so over the top that it almost seemed an act.

Anyway, I think this anger is a reaction to the fog lifting. Life seems to be setting in for her right now. She was supposed to make settlement on the house last week, but told me today it would be next week now. So something is wrong there. I think R with OM is either over or she knows it won't ever be anything more than an A with him. Last week she seemed pretty peeved that I had the kids for Xmas eve, but she's the one that made that schedule.

I saw that this session she was in the most distress emotionally, its almost like she was trying to regain control. I think this is part of my detachment last week and I kind of figured from reading here that the next step in the death of an A is anger at LBS. That along with the vulnerability she showed last week I think caused her to start realizing what is going on.


She definitely was not happy; and struggled with her not being able to get rise out of me. The counselor said at the end that this was the best exchange that we have had over the last couple months.

[MCS]

Vanilla,

We crossed posts, but you can see that I back-slid a little at our session today. Luckily, I had the seperation agreement as a basis to lean against as she tried to get a rise out of me, but I did bring up trust and the kids. I was really trying not to do that, but she threw a curve ball at me.

I do think that my detachment is helping me and getting her a little nervous as I see that as sandi2 says, W would smooth me over with some hope in R to get what she wanted. This has happened at least two times. Its apparent that I'm not standing for that anymore.

This weekend was my first weekend that I felt truly like I was starting to GAL. I need to formalize it more, but there's not much that I'm really interested in doing right now. However, emotionally I'm in a much better place right now. I get most of my GAL at work, but I know that I need to figure something out. Problem is I'm a home-body and almost all of my friends are married w/children. So I need to make that first big step.

As far as my plan for not judging, I need to do more homework. This is another one that if I look, I only see show up in my M based on what W says, no one else seems to have any issues with me passing judgment. I wonder if its because my M was the only place I let my guard down, I don't know. I guess that I have the tendency to think about people's decisions, but never do anything to show or comment on it. Maybe in my M, I did show it too much and now with the kids its manifesting again.

I can tell you honestly, I'm still resentful that she could walk out the door and instantly her expectation (and probably reality) is that my time being with the kids for the next 15 years is cut in half. That hurts....

To look at some of the constructive criticism I've gotten at work over the last 15 years, I guess maybe I can draw some parallels. I will say that folks know that I have high expectations of people, every once in a while unreasonable. When I say unreasonable, I mean about once or twice a year at work setting a deadline that is too difficult to meet. However to be a little boastful; I've always been very engaged in my career and a high performer.

I can say that a big wake-up call for me about 1 month after S was that I was temporarily 'removed' from my position in order to give me time to work on my personal life and take care of my family. It was an all-time low in my career and I'm still fighting to get back into the mix and show them that I have control of the stuff going on at work. However, maybe this high expectation tendency goes hand-in-hand with passing judgement.

Well, the other thing that has my PMA down right now is that I'm seeing just how complex the issues my W needs to address in order to get some resolution in this. I know I'm going to be fine however this turns out; its just tonight is one of those nights that it feels like we'll need a miracle.

[MCS]

Your W is separate from you and you are separate from W, neither should attempt to control the other.

Yep, I tried to not control anything and when it got that it was affecting me, I put the agreement in place and talked through it with her. The only control struggle we have right now is the kids.

During the dark time did you GAL? Did you follow Sandis guidelines? What is different about you now after the dark period that would encourage W to give you a second look?

Well, they may be surface items now, but all of the actual issues in our daily M life that she ever mentioned I have been doing exclusively. House, Kids, balancing work, etc.

I've followed her rules on interaction, showing I'm comfortable with myself. Most of the rules I have followed. Only issue is a lot of friends know what is actually going on, not because I told them; but they figured it out. I haven't talked with them about it, but W assumes I did.

Frankly why should W honor any verbal or email boundaries?
I wouldn't unless I believed they were reasonable and H was strong on enforcing them. But then I am not in an A or affected by one. Under those circumstances I may choose to do what I pleased.

Yep, she didn't. I never understood when I first got on here why people trying to save their M would put an agreement in place...now I know. We did talk and she agreed that most were reasonable, this week she's trying to push the envelope on them again. but that's why they're there.

Your trust in W, why trust her and why should you expect to trust after an A? 100% of what they say etc

I don't trust her, but I realize I need to balance out what's good for our kids compared to what I want for the kids. They need to see their mom, they miss her and every night ask why she won't come back. My W never has told me, but they say the same things to her and ask her to come back. Her ignoring them infuriates me. Since we have struggled to have any conversations about the kids, this balance has been tough to do. Especially trying to keep my emotions in check.

I am sure the vets will chip in if I am off beam here, but in order to move from stasis MCS then you need to Tango.

Agree on that, I need to re-read that section

I am still awaiting your plan on giving up judging others.
Go GAL
Vanilla

Yep on both. I did some prelim work in the last post, but I need to think about that one more universally.

Thanks as always Vanilla.

[MCS]

So got an email from W about logistics of separation. Basically, she sent a list of the big items in the house, said she wants me to go through and add things she forgot, but will not come in the house to go through and create and inventory. Also, said any convo about it she wants a third party there.

So this is more of this 'unsafe' thing with me and not wanting to do anything without someone else. This is so out there for me. There is absolutely nothing to warrant her acting like this. I wonder if this is a ploy from L to try and make her justify abandoning the family. I don't know it's really weird. We can't even talk about the kids w/o counselor. All of our interactions have been fairly calm.

Mind reading.....This coupled with avoiding the house and everything else about her past life seems that she is just trying to move on and knows that she's emotionally vulnerable about her decision and is trying to do everything possible to move on. Almost like she's countering the DB by detaching herself.

Also, I got an Xmas card from FIL. Anyway, he wrote a note saying he was praying for me and hopes things work out somehow. It was really nice and made me cry. W was never real close to him and a lot of her issues I think were she never thought she could live up to his expectations, which is what she said about me also. Anyway, weird thing is since we have S, she has stayed w him twice when she was travelling up that way over the weekends. We never really spent time with him before, just Xmas eve. So, it's good to know that he feels that way and it is one person that W seems to have connected with at least informally after S.

So I really want to send a letter back thanking him for the card, but should I? And what should I say? I hope we can work it out too? Or just like Thank You?

[edz]

Hi MCS

My sitch is different to yours as there isnt anyone else involved but I can certainly empathise with the splitting things aspect.

I was at the apartment we shared after W left with S and when I decided to move (and she was moving back - see my thread for details) I effectively had to split everything and pack / resolve everything myself.

Of everything in the place she only went through our vinyl albums and did it in a half hearted way.

Just before moving she then started to pick at my decisions and changed her mind on what she wanted to keep and even after I arranged the move, the removals and went she was still asking why I had certain things.

In short, you are not alone in this. We as LBS(es) are being moved "away" from in their minds I think, in the books you'll see that most WASs have already done this way before we are told. I didn't get that my W didn't see me as her H then (and probably not now at least yet, maybe never) so thinking she'll see things the way we would when we got ready to move in the past was my view not catching up (as always hindsight is perfect).

She simply wanted the place sorted so she could get on (in my case so she could get out of MILs house before they strangled each other but thats another problem completely).

I know how gut crunchingly difficult this is for you to be going through, its bad enough to have significant people wanting to go but then to have to face all the historical proof of your life together just magnifies it. All I can offer you is this, I'm 3 weeks into having moved away and W moved in. I'm in no way up to my full GAL or full PMA but work on them every day (Vanilla makes sure of that!) and while I have down days having sorted that move and gone past it is the most positive thing that happened since BD. In my case it also meant seeing my S more which is not the case in your sitch but I can say that this may be hard but it will pass eventually regardless of your eventual outcome and things will become easier.

Keep posting and hang in there,

Edz