While I would prefer to not have to have any contact with him at all, I have to be the grownup and suck it up and make it work. So, I can negotiate instead of just being annoyed.
Btw..would love feedback before mediation: our draft parenting plan says that we will attempt to come to consensus on all child-related issues (education, religion, health), and that if we can't come to agreement we will go to a neutral third party before taking it to court.
That seems so ridiculous to me. Obviously we will always try to come to an agreement. But in the event we don't, we have to come back to mediation??
What have others done?
And it's hard to not be frustrated by the logistics of everything. It was hard enough to balance our families (we both have extended families who all live in the area-- and his parents are divorced so that adds another layer), but now I have to do all that plus negotiate with him about our time too. It's just so annoying.
Ok. Putting on my BGP.
Mediation tomorrow. It's been at least 6 months since our last meeting. I'm nervous. And I'm annoyed that instead of spending my time and energy and money in making our R work I have to spend my time and energy and money to fulfill his desire to break us up.
I've decided to do as little as possible. Why doesn't he draft a budget for me and I can revise it? He can contact the realtor and make an appointment to get our home appraised.
He wants this so badly he can make it happen.
(My head feels clouded with emotion so obviously I need some redirection...)
Btw..would love feedback before mediation: our draft parenting plan says that we will attempt to come to consensus on all child-related issues (education, religion, health), and that if we can't come to agreement we will go to a neutral third party before taking it to court.
That seems so ridiculous to me. Obviously we will always try to come to an agreement. But in the event we don't, we have to come back to mediation??
What have others done?
Claire, I don't have anything legal in my sich, but I don't see this as a bad thing. In fact, I see it as protecting your from H's potential unreasonableness. Let's say that you put your D in a private school because your local public school is the pits (just for example, not saying it actually is). Then after three years, in the middle of the year, H decides he wants her moved. No matter how you beg and plead, he won't budge. A mediator would say that you have to at least leave her there until the end of the school year, and then help you figure out what to do for next year. Hopefully, it would never come down to that, but it's nice to know the procedure if it does.
Anyone gonna be around tonight? I have mediation with H tomorrow -first time in 6 months--and could certainly use both cheerleading and practical advice.
Claire, anything that saves you court time is a good thing. Court is EXPENSIVE.
And since you guys aren't together and thus have already demonstrated an inability to come to agreement, building in a plan of action is the only smart thing to do. It's not personal. And not everyone is well-intentioned. I know in my brother's case it's better to assume they WON'T agree than that they will.
I'm sorry you're hitting mediation but it's important to have things clear on both sides and hopefully it will be a low-key event.
Also, I wanted to say earlier... when you were upset at having to yield on parenting stuff to your H, it's so wonderful how involved he wants to be! Consider the alternative.
HUGS!!!
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
I think I didn't explain myself clearly. I definitely would want to avoid court. But I've heard that many agreements stipulate that one parent has ultimate decision making over education, for example, while perhaps the other has ultimate decision over religious-related things. So, the parties agree to attempt to come to an agreement, but if they can't, there is a default. I'm not sure that running to mediation every time there is an unresolvable conflict is the answer. I don't know.
I need to pump myself up to go in strong tomorrow. I need to try to see some positives in him, if only because that is the kind of person I want to be-- with friends, with students, with everyone in my life. I tend to jump to a negative interpretation.
I have some questions regarding finances for him-- how is his paycheck being distributed. And it's probably time to have some sort of financial separation-- even if it's just setting up a joint fund for expenses for our D or something like that. A friend gave me the great idea to ask for a "vacation fund" to be set up-- to be contributed to proportionally by both of us, and then split in half, so we each have funds to take her on vacation. I hate the idea of him being 'fun dad' because he has more money.
I'm still not sure if I want to keep or sell the home. I'd need to have child support for probably at least a year before I could even apply for a mortgage on my own. But do I really want to take on a mortgage for a home I don't even love? And as for selling it... I would need some concessions: either $ for a weekly housekeeper while it's on the market, and/or some other perk every time we'd have to leave for an open house or showing, and I was even thinking of setting me and D up in a temp rental (or permanent rental) while house is up for sale-- I mean, it's kind of unfair that he'll get to profit from the sale of the house without being inconvenienced by it AT ALL? Why don't I get to just MOVE OUT and then get a big fat check when it's sold??
There is a place in this for me to be angry at his selfish, juvenile behavior. Regardless of the fact that he and I were both unhappy, there is just no reasonable excuse for someone to abandon their marriage the way he did. I don't need to be spiteful about it, but I also don't need to protect him from the natural consequences of his ridiculous decision.
Ack. I don't even know how to make a plan for XMas vacation. This totally suxx.
I think I didn't explain myself clearly. I definitely would want to avoid court. But I've heard that many agreements stipulate that one parent has ultimate decision making over education, for example, while perhaps the other has ultimate decision over religious-related things. So, the parties agree to attempt to come to an agreement, but if they can't, there is a default. I'm not sure that running to mediation every time there is an unresolvable conflict is the answer. I don't know.
OK, Claire, I understand better now. And that's something to ask your L about. I have a friend who has been in a knock-down, drag-out D and custody battle for years. Her H is really awful to their 4 kids. At various times over the years, she has had temporary sole decision making, but that has only lasted a few months at a time, even though the XH is a real pig to his kids. And my point is......in this state you would be unlikely to get an agreement of the type you described, I don't know about your state, something to check on.
I just wanted to let you know, we skipped mediation in my case and just agreed to things between us, but I am looking at the joint legal custody agreement (which is a standard state form), and the part about trying to agree on these issues before taking them to a neutral third party is on there as well, and looks to be the "standard".I'd pick your battles, and you know your H better than us. Is he really likely to argue with you on school, healthcare and religion? If you think that would be relatively rare, I would save the "pushback" for other items.
That's just me, I guess I am pretty comfortable with this particular piece because STBX has always been pretty passive about these areas. Heck, I doubt he could name our pediatrician.
X Mr GB and I hammered out our own arrangement (I'm very frugal and it seemed ridiculous if we couldn't to me since we had 3 kids). To be completely honest, part of it was that I did not want a few things to come to "light" and we decided we could do it ourselves.
I have final decision making over everything except religion. X is atheist and I consider my spiritual so no formal religion. However, my kids do attend a religious school that h understands (due to where we live, learning disabilities and behavioral issues) is really the only choice. And now I'll say something that may warrant some head swiveling from fellow readers. I am relentless in anything that has to do with the well being of my children. I essentially told xh that he was welcome to final decision making over religion because if kids were wanting to join a cult, he should feel free to intervene and realize religion turns out to be an extremely personal decision. There was no snark intended as xh was raised in a fairly religious household. I was raised in a very religious household and while I respect others beliefs, for me, I started forming my own beliefs around age 8.
Sorry if I high jacked. Good luck :-)
Last edited by Georgiabelle; 12/05/1402:57 PM.
3 kids BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. ) Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style D final 9-9-14 "Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
Wow . I did not DB very well and its crystal clear he is done. Hoo boy. Among several cringe-worthy moments:
1) I brought up the fact that it is, in fact, difficult for me to totally trust him at his word now, which is why I have been pushing for more precise language in our agreement document.
2) I brought up whether it was appropriate to spend money on extra-marital activities. "Would you be ok if I spent joint money on an expensive gift for my boyfriend?" He said, "Sure, that's fine. I know you aren't the type of person to go crazy with spending. I trust you."
3) after we left, he stopped me to say he's really sorry that I feel like I can't trust him. I said I've acted in ways this past year that show, in fact, that I do. He said, I get what you are saying (about him breaking his vows), but in his mind it's different. I said, I'm sure you see it differently. Then we sort of got into a R convo which was basically me telling him (calmly, at least) that while I can understand that his feelings change, it's hard to understand his choice to abandon our marriage without getting any real help. His position is that he did try, for a long time, and he was just hopeless. Of course i went back about how we didn't get real, skilled help, and that things might have been different if we had.
I went into how i believe that love is a choice and that relationships can be rebuilt and that I acknowledge he feels differently. And that it was a surprise when he sat me down one day and announced he was leaving-- that I would never have expected that.
We were standing on a street corner in the rain and he had to go get our D. Perfect time for that kind of conversation!
Omg. I can't believe that I lost my control like that. And now I'm sitting in Starbucks crying.
So that's that. I think I need to move to another board. My thread doesn't get that much traffic anyway and I think this is a place for people who still have some sense that it may work out. Mine won't. He's totally calm, he says he's committed to us having a positive relationship. But he is done being married to me.
That sounds like a rough day. give yourself a bit of time on it then let it go (and rise like the break of dawn)
no 3 on your list I got on BD and its been consistent since so it absolutely feels like my W is 100% done with our M and maybe she is. Its really hurtful especially if they seem relaxed and happy about it.
Feelings change for good or bad and we have to make the best of whatever we are dealt.
Personally I think this is place for people who have a sense that if we work on ourselves things will work out better for us - whether that means a renewed and better M or something else. either way you need to live your life as best you can and be a great example to your D (which you are).
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
That is exactly my H's sentiment and I'm still fairly new to all of this. I've read several of your posts and yours is one of the stories I identify with the most in terms of our husbands' attitudes about their marriages. My husband says he tried too, but I didn't get the memo that as we were living our lives day to day and yes, at times, struggling because we didn't have the right tools and information about what it takes to have a healthy marriage, that he was trying. I do actually have a question for you that I'll post another time when I don't have the flu and the whole bath/bedtime routine looming in front of me. For what it's worth though, I think you're doing really well and are showing excellent strength through all of this.
Last edited by Lorelai; 12/05/1411:53 PM.
Me: 38 H: 43 Kids: 2,4 T10 M6 BD: 1/14 11/14: H moves out
It stinks. But there was most likely nothing you could have done b
I've been thinking a lot about this lately. The idea that we can fight to save our Ms. The reality is that we can't do anything to bring our spouse back. There aren't as many Rs as there are Ds. And those that do R- while I'm sure they worked hard, they also had a spouse that came back. Give 25 or Starsky a spouse that wasnt able to do their own work or look back at some point and they wouldn't have a restored M. So this doesn't mean you did something wrong. For all I know you are the best DBer in history and for stack with a due of a WAH.
I know DBing is healthy and effective, I know it's a win even when it's a loss. I just don't like the fact that it seems to prolong the grieving process for those that are on this path. Detachment is key, but he line between detachment and denial (secretly hoping it will work out) is a thin one to the untrained eye.
Doesn't change how unfair that feels. I just know that while I never, ever, ever x 1,000,000 wanted to have to accept a D...at least I will know that I did everything I could, and I'm not just another person that shrugged and wrote off the M and jumped into a rebound. No, I'll be able to look my next partner in the eyes and tell proudly what I did, and commit that loyalty to them.
At this point I wish you the strength to truly let go as he's probay gone, but the strength to continue on your road for YOU as well. You will at least know you walked a road you're proud of and have the skills to do better with a partner who's commitment matches yours next time.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
You told your H EXACTLY what I would love to the mine. Love IS a choice and I still cannot comprehend how someone can abandon their family. I'm pretty sure my H is done with our M, too. I hope that one day I will be able to accept this. I'm not there, yet. Sending prayers your way.
Me: 54 H: 58 Married: 29 years Together 33 years H admitted to A: 5/29/14 H moved out :6/15/14 OW lives 4 hours away and "occasionally" stays weekends with H D23 D18
Claire, I don't really have a sense that it will work out for me, either (at least in terms of H coming back - we've set Dec. 14 as the date that I'll sign his filing paperwork) but I still think this is a good board to be a part of. Sometimes those conversations just need to be had, I think - you've said what you've wanted to say, maybe now you can feel a little more at peace knowing you've said everything you could (that you may have been holding back for awhile now) and there's no more you can do, at least regarding H. After I had a similar conversation I now don't have lingering doubts like "maybe he didn't know I'm still invested in this.. maybe he thinks I gave up." I told him how I felt about it, he is still making this choice, that's all we can do. Now it's time to focus on yourself. I don't post much because I don't usually feel like I have good advice... and I don't have kids so it's hard for me to relate to that part (even when I think I have something to say, I'm reluctant to because what do I know, I don't have kids!) But I do read all your posts.
Speaking of reading your posts... re: the house. Does your H have any interest in keeping/living in the house? Could you sell it to him and you move out w/ D? Assuming it will work that way where you live and based on your situation (if I'm remembering correctly you have your own income so it's not like it's solely paid for by him?) even if he doesn't want to live there, maybe he'd agree to buy it and then he can take care of whatever he wants to do with it after that point (rent it out, sell it, live in it, whatever?) Then you could get your payout without the hassle! My H thinks the house is a "good investment" so I'll be selling it to him, and therefore he's taking care of all the refinancing, title stuff, etc., and all I need to do is sign it over to him (and get the check!!) If he wants to sell it later, fine, not my problem - I can wash my hands of it.
Last edited by KGirl; 12/06/1403:56 AM.
Me:30 H:29, no kids T:12, M:4 (when D was final) 12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore" 6/14: Separated (I move) 1/15: H filed for D 5/15: D final
It stinks. But there was most likely nothing you could have done b
I've been thinking a lot about this lately. The idea that we can fight to save our Ms. The reality is that we can't do anything to bring our spouse back. There aren't as many Rs as there are Ds. And those that do R- while I'm sure they worked hard, they also had a spouse that came back. Give 25 or Starsky a spouse that wasnt able to do their own work or look back at some point and they wouldn't have a restored M. So this doesn't mean you did something wrong. For all I know you are the best DBer in history and for stack with a due of a WAH.
I know DBing is healthy and effective, I know it's a win even when it's a loss. I just don't like the fact that it seems to prolong the grieving process for those that are on this path. Detachment is key, but he line between detachment and denial (secretly hoping it will work out) is a thin one to the untrained eye.
Doesn't change how unfair that feels. I just know that while I never, ever, ever x 1,000,000 wanted to have to accept a D...at least I will know that I did everything I could, and I'm not just another person that shrugged and wrote off the M and jumped into a rebound. No, I'll be able to look my next partner in the eyes and tell proudly what I did, and commit that loyalty to them.
At this point I wish you the strength to truly let go as he's probay gone, but the strength to continue on your road for YOU as well. You will at least know you walked a road you're proud of and have the skills to do better with a partner who's commitment matches yours next time.
I agree with a lot of this. It's also nice to see that there are people who still believe in marriage and doing whatever it takes. Even if our current marriages don't work out I think we will all be better equipped in our next relationships, maybe change the stats of the D rate for marriage #2!
Claire, you have been amazingly strong thru all of this, you can walk out the door without slamming it, you still have a choice. (())
Me-44 (45) H- 50 (51) M-'96
S-18(20)D-15(17)D-12(14)
BD Feb 2014 (he works overseas) home Oct(sep rooms) (EAs possible Pa's unconfirmed) insists wants D through July 2015 no more talk of D since
Um, I'm going to take a slightly different view...
This: I brought up whether it was appropriate to spend money on extra-marital activities. "Would you be ok if I spent joint money on an expensive gift for my boyfriend?" He said, "Sure, that's fine. I know you aren't the type of person to go crazy with spending. I trust you."
makes me laugh.
You know why?
It shows he hasn't even thought you could possibly have a boyfriend. He can't fathom you would have a boyfriend and so he answered that question glibly because he does trust you. You've absorbed thirteen months of separation and absolutely no feeding of your love tank and you're still outright asking him to come back and fix things with you. You've given him all the power. In his mind, he can stay gone as long as he wants and come back any time and you'll be glad to have him. There doesn't even seem to be any expectation of him doing any self-examination.
He was answering whether he thought it was ok for him to spend money extramaritally because he's very very aware that he hasn't really lost you. You've urged him to come back to the M every chance you've had. You haven't looked like a woman who's made changes and moved on. You've looked like someone who made changes for him and has been patiently waiting in the window for him to notice you.
I'm not trying to kick you while you're down. I'm really not. I hope my saying this so bluntly will open the possibility of a different tunnel to you. You see what I just posted on my own thread a few minutes ago (and writing this to you now confirms that I'm on the right track in my own situation, in spite of my wobble), so you know I understand how you're feeling.
I mentioned to you not too long ago that you seem to have lost your power. Find it! Where is that awesome sassy voice you were using to clobber foolish fellas a few months ago??? Do NOT give your H the ability to kick you in front of a bus. You are worth a LOT more than that.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
I don't know what possessed me to talk about that. Someone here at some point when I was talking about bank accounts (all our finances are still joint, but I don't have access to all his spending info) put the idea into my head that I had to set a boundary that he couldn't spend communal property on OW.
I really went off the deep end in that meeting, and as Maybell pointed out, looked so f'ing weak and desperate.
I am not pining for him. I am not jealous of OW. (at least I don't want to be). But I don't want him spending my settlement money on others.
Anyway, as if my behavior at the meeting, and afterwards wasn't bad enough, I also sent this email to him when I got home. Like I said, I snapped a bit:
I acknowledge and respect that you feel how you feel. I know what you feel (or don't feel, as the case may be) is real. In fact, my feelings are probably even quite similar to yours now. The marriage we had is dead and gone, and I would not want that marriage back. I may have sadness, but not fear and not really anger, except as it relates to how your choice affects our D.
What I don't agree with is your belief that feelings can't change, or that hopelessness about a relationship can't change.
We feel how we feel; maybe we can't control that. But we can control our thoughts and actions...and changes in thoughts and actions are what lead to changes in feelings.
I know our perspectives are different and I have no expectations that telling you this or sharing a video with you would change your perspective. But in light of tonight's conversation, I felt the desire to clarify (or reiterate) my perspective.
(and I shared a video from a pro-marriage couple who blog and FB marital advice).
Today he told me that our D mentioned to her friend that "my daddy is bad. he's mean to me." D was with her nanny... the mother of the friend asked the nanny if it was true! H was upset. What could I say? I told him that she has said those things to me (about me, and also about him). I've told her that we can be upset with people, and being might make us feel mad, but that doesn't mean they are "bad"... and I also told him that I never know how/if to mention it... but she is affected by all this. I broached the idea of getting her counseling. He didn't outright reject it, but thought she was a bit young still.
What a fool.
Maybell, I'm on it. All the churning of the last few weeks will (hopefully) lead me to finally drop the f'ing rope.
I'm not necessarily saying drop the rope. I'm saying quit trying to talk him into coming back. Explore yourself as you are, as if you intend to be happy REGARDLESS of his choices. That every part of your life can be great whether or not that one part is. That you give as much weight to the parts of your life that work as you do to this one part that isn't. That knowing and believing in your other blessings gives you strength to deal with your H whatever he throws at you. Or your D.
Tomorrow is another day. The first day of the rest of your life, your very own, one and only life. What will you do to make it good for yourself?
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
I would say drop the rope. Doesn't mean you can't pick it back up but you don't want to be with him right now, he doesn't want to be with you. Allow that. It's OK.
Resisting the reality of your situation keeps you stuck.
Why do you think you're holding on so tightly?
I'm going to point this out, not as a 2x4 but as something to think about. Several times you've sent emails or had emotional discussions with H and then come here and "apologize" for the action. I know with discussions it's sometimes difficult but with emails, even texts, you can apply the 72 hr rule and come here for input if needed.
See your emotions for what they are and be aware that you're reacting to the emotion. When you feel emotion rise, it's your cue to slow down and let it pass, then respond, if needed.
Been there, got the T-shirt. It wasn't worth the price of admission. I would send out emails filled with subtext of pleading, blame and guilt. Ugly. I had never learned to communicate honestly, authentically, with anyone, it was all done under the surface by intonation, body language, code, phrasing.
I had learned as a child to fear anything uncertain. I had to control to say safe. When I wasn't in control, I was an anxious mess trying frantically through word and deed to get back in control. Sometimes I hurt people in the same way a scared animal backed into a corner can inflict damage.
Learning to accept the uncertainty of life has been such a gift. And guess what, it's really not scary at all.
Slow down, sweetie. Take the time you need. Figure you out.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
OMG--Labug you're so right! Can I take that advice even though it's not on my thread? I have the same T-shirt, several of them in fact, and yes, they weren't worth the price. I too learned to be controlling as a child in order to stay safe, then brought that into adulthood, where it doesn't work.
Me: 38 H: 43 Kids: 2,4 T10 M6 BD: 1/14 11/14: H moves out
Hmmm. That is such a good question. I've been thinking about it all day.
I have to be honest that in many many ways I have 'dropped the rope', at least on the outside: I don't wear my rings; I've taken ALL pics of him and his family out of all parts of my home except D's room; I've taken down my ketubah; i stopped following him on twitter; I've moved most of the things he's still storing here to an out of sight area; i rarely if ever contact him for anything except D related stuff (and even then, rarely); I don't (always) respond right away-- maybe 25% of the time I respond quickly; I do my best to keep up my PMA when I see him-- I say hello in a friendly way, even when he barely will look at me. I try not to act awkward or strange around him. I go days without crying or even thinking of him too much. I don't look through old photos, and very rarely do I even think back to happier times.
Labug, you are right that I don't want to be with him. My friends don't think too highly of him, and even some wives of H's friends imply that they think he's pretty difficult to be with (he's been called "grumpy", "crusty", "doesn't show much emotion" "isn't open with his feelings" etc. Even his own mother admitted he can be difficult!)
So, why do I hold on? I think I know that deep down he is not the right person for me. I just don't think he's capable of changing, or looking inward, or being the kind of person I want to be with. But I guess I've wanted to hold out a tiny bit of hope that he would be. I think that if I let myself let go completely, that will be it. If I start letting myself think of other men, or even meeting and dating other men, I will (god-willing) find someone who is more sensitive, generous, brave, strong, secure and compassionate.
Even 13 months later, after I've been so graceful and dignified and strong, he still showed contempt for me during the mediation-- smirking, letting out loud sighs. What a d-bag.
I should never have married him. I had doubts from the very beginning, but I didn't think I could do any better. I thought I was just so lucky that someone wanted to marry me. Is that the saddest thing you ever read?
My D is amazing, and yes, I would do it again to have her.
But it's time to move forward.
I don't care if he thinks the house is messy. If I want to keep it clean for me, or for my D or our guests, I will. But not to prove anything to him.
I don't care if he thinks I look good. If I want to put myself together for ME, I will, but not to prove anything to him or to try to win him back.
I will not use "what would H think?" as part of my decision-making process any longer. His judgement of me does not matter.
I'm proud of who I am, even if my house isn't spotless, even if I'm not an amazing cook, even if I'm 10 pounds overweight and even if I'm not the life of the party. I will have a happy, fulfilling, blessed life without him, without his friends, without his family. My happiness will come from within me and my outlook and strength will draw positivity to me.
thank you, labug and Maybell, and everyone else, for helping me get to this point. I am so grateful for the support I've received here.
Thinking through plans for xmas week. reached out to some (married) friends. (Don't have too many single or divorced ones). And I realized what may be the worst part of this. As an introvert who likes to be alone sometimes, but certainly not all the time, I don't have a huge circle of friends. And losing my marriage means that I've lost my built-in activity partner. D likes to hang out with other kids-- I don't blame her. I like to have another grown up around, too. But holiday time means family time, and that means nearly everyone I know (including my single friends) are spending most of their time with their families. I can never just look at my H, and say, "What do you want to do today?" and have a built-in SOMEONE to share the day with.
Feeling a bit sorry for myself right now. I can't find anyone to go away with over New Year's, and the thought of taking D somewhere alone just doesn't seem fun enough for either of us to justify the cost and effort.
I know I have to get involved in meetups and stuff. I've tried a bit. But not enough. It's incredibly difficult for me, as an introvert. So, I guess that would be a 180. (I have made a couple of new friends.. but they will be away over New Year's)...
I can relate to much of what you say. I'm a bit of a loner and try to branch out a bit socially. It is a stretch for me often as well.
If you were close, I would totally invite you to hang out with me and my bf for NYE. We will act silly while our kids play, talk about uncomfortable subjects and make inappropriate comments to each other because we have a crazy sense of humor. All while her husband walks around, shakes his head and laughs.
Please don't put too much pressure on yourself-particularly regarding holidays. We make a *big* deal about stuff (IMHO ) about stuff and it overall increase anxiety unnecessarily.
Hang in there:-)
Last edited by Georgiabelle; 12/08/1412:30 AM.
3 kids BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. ) Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style D final 9-9-14 "Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
claire, hate to be devil's advocate but here goes. you don't think he could change. get it, understand. but do you realize that he thought the same thing about you? in regards to the friend's not liking him, were they married to him? so who cares what they think. my wife's friend's think i'm a scumbag. why? cause that is how she painted me. were they there when i would bring lunch to her at her job? nope. were they there when i held her hair when she was sick and throwing up? no. were they there when i would open the garage door and wait for her in the driveway to carry all the groceries inside? you guessed it. not many people will tell the good things along with the bad. why is that usually the case? because i think most people inherently reach out for sympathy-not to be told to suck it up. i think a lot of us LBS sometimes cling to the poor behavior of now (and the past) to force ourselves to detach. but this is the same thing a WAS does. kinda puts things in perspective for me.
please keep in mind that this is what i have to remind myself everyday so i don't become bitter and resentful. that would do me and my kids no favor and it would bring me right back to the person i used to be. but admittedly i struggle.
all that said, he probly is truly an a+hole. but we don't really know what he is thinking, feeling.
as always, i'll be praying for you.
M40 XW35 M11 T15 S9 D5 Bomb 6/3/14 Papers del 10/3/14 D final 12/5/14
I wish I could love you and make you believe it 'Cause that's all you ever wanted From me
I'm also feeling the loss lately of that "built in activity partner" (even though H didn't really like to get out and do things that often - there were many times where he'd say he was already in his sweatpants and didn't want to change his clothes!) - I don't really miss H but I do miss that "partner" aspect of things. You nailed it all in your longer "dropping the rope" post - you've got this! Over the past year I've pushed myself to go out and do things on my own if it's something I really want to do and can't find anyone to go with, instead of just staying home and being resentful, and it's really helped. Re: New Year's, some of my fondest memories as a kid were staying up "late" with my parents, wearing silly hats, throwing confetti, playing with noisemakers, and drinking sparkling juice out of fancy glasses. I bet you and your D could have a really great time at home without going anywhere. I don't know that I have many plans for X-mas week, either, but that doesn't mean that I can't enjoy things on my own (play holiday music, watch as many sappy cheesy holiday movies as possible, bake, enjoy decorations). I'm also thinking about throwing a party for friends and co-workers a little later in December, sort of a post-Xmas party when people are more likely to be around and done with family activities.
Me:30 H:29, no kids T:12, M:4 (when D was final) 12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore" 6/14: Separated (I move) 1/15: H filed for D 5/15: D final
Hey Claire, I'll echo GB, don't push yourself right now. Do some quiet things that make you happy. Do things introverts like, book clubs, quiet coffee dates, small classes in things that interest you.
About NYE, your D is 3. Plan some 3yr old fun activities for the holiday, things you might not normally do. 3yos don't have to go anywhere to have fun, they ARE fun.
Quote:
I should never have married him. I had doubts from the very beginning, but I didn't think I could do any better. I thought I was just so lucky that someone wanted to marry me. Is that the saddest thing you ever read?
No, it's the building block for the rest of your life.
Figure you out, the rest will take care of itself.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Today he told me that our D mentioned to her friend that "my daddy is bad. he's mean to me." D was with her nanny... the mother of the friend asked the nanny if it was true! H was upset. What could I say? I told him that she has said those things to me (about me, and also about him). I've told her that we can be upset with people, and being might make us feel mad, but that doesn't mean they are "bad"... and I also told him that I never know how/if to mention it... but she is affected by all this. I broached the idea of getting her counseling. He didn't outright reject it, but thought she was a bit young still.
I also have girls, who are now 20 and 17. They were 8 and 5 when their dad left, and my youngest is a special needs kiddo who was very medically challenged from the get go. My oldest was 3 and had a difficult time labeling emotions (many people do), so we put her into some counseling so that she learned new coping mechanisms and had a safe place to share her negative feelings without getting scolded from me or her dad. It laid the ground work for periodic "check ups" with this same child counselor, who she grew to really trust and respect. Dr. Lesley did all sorts of activities with her in the office under the guise of play that got her to open up.
To this day, whenever I know she needs to get something out, we pull out the coloring books or drive in the car somewhere. I think it really taught her that asking for help is a good thing. Your D is really young and this kind of black and white labeling is pretty normal. It's just that you are in an uncomfortable situation that seems to be amplifying the negative in a different way. Does this make sense?
I'm also a firm believer and follower of the 24 hour rule. I had to put it into place because I was one of those people who simply *had* to react immediately and I also *had* to have the last word. When I started doing this, all my relationships improved. Funny, that!
BTW, my girls and I made sure we did fun stuff every NYE. Sometimes we'd go to mass and then out to dinner and a movie. Or I'd buy tickets to the theatre. Or I'd let the oldest invite friends over and let them eat crap and drink soda and talk all night. Or we'd have a camp out in the family room. All of those things make me look back with bittersweet fondness. I'd choose that over rocking out somewhere else with a dude any day of the week. I really miss those times. So celebrate that while you've got her, sweetie. You never get these days back.
Maybe a craft and game night? Beads, jewelry making, paint by number, puzzles? I'd totally come over and do that with you. Build good memories.
Hang in there- Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Ok people... this terrible planner has some good news to report! 1) got my bro to buy awesome concert tix for my birthday 6 months from now! And already know who is coming with me! 2) reached out to old friend who lives far away... she is excited for me and D to come visit. Convo with H at mediation made me realize that I can decide, all by myself, to use community $ to pay for a vacation for me and D. So, that is in the works for feb. 3) nearly ready to buy plane tix for girls weekend, also in feb. 4) tentative plan to co-host party with new single mom friend. 5) started brainstorming ideas for our staycation over new year's: to include new adventures in our area, cookie decorating, Ice skating, craft projects..
Thank you all for the pep talk and great advice. I feel a whole lot better.
Also.. I have done my PT exercises every night except one. ..and am feeling stronger! Onward!! Lots of good stuff in the works.
Wanted to respond to what you said about my love tank not being filled for a long time. That is so so true. (And not even by my parents). It's been far longer than the 13 months he's been gone. I used to cry myself to sleep with my husband laying in bed next to me because I felt so lonely and unloved.
I'm so curious how it will be to have someone interested in me and attracted to me again. It's been so long. Most of my colleagues are women-- there are no eligible men at my place of work, and it's not like I frequent bars with single friends... so I don't even know where I would meet someone. But somehow I will, I'm sure.
Ok team. I'm trying to follow the advice to post here first before responding to H. Feeling really annoyed. Here's the context: 1. He's pushed back every time we've tried to set a regular schedule. 2. Our draft parenting agreement, which we went over for an hour with the mediator on friday, says that we will split christmas vacation in half-- this year he gets first half, I get second. 3. I had requested 12/27--it's my dads bday. 4. He proposed a schedule for this vacation which would give him 3 nights (12/24, 12/25, 12/28), and me the rest (12/26-27 and 12/28-1/1). 5. I responded (with no emotion or judgement) a different schedule, saying I thought it made sense for us to "test" whether what we plan to agree to will actually work. The plan I proposed gave him evenings of 12/23-25, 12/28-29. Then I had 5 nights as well. 6. Here is his response. I don't know how to respond to this without flipping out. Please help:
Generally, I'm fine with all of your revisions with two caveats.
1) 12/23. I have tickets to a game that evening and cannot take D. I would ask that you take that and I will pick her up from you at 10am on 12/24. I just didn't plan for the mid-week Wednesday when we both still have work.
2) As I had thought you were planning to take D for a more extended period of time, I want to leave the option open for things to fall into place for me to be away the evening of 12/29. I will commit to taking her til at least 4pm that day (I do have work, but will take the day to spend it with her). And I would say it is highly unlikely that anything comes together, in which case, I will commit to the evening of 12/29, too. But I want that possible flexibility that I thought I had in the first place.
Let me know your thoughts. Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Help. The thought of 15 more years of this is really upsetting. How can I get out of this back and forth routine. What would a reasonable compromise look like, and should I propose that? (He gave a proposal, I gave another one, his response is basically back to his original position, claiming that I misled him on the flexibility he thought he would have. I feel stuck and I have spent too much time on this today...
If you think of the 15 years in front of you it will be impossible to solve this dilemma. So I recommend you think only about this year.
So if I understand this correctly... he wants you to cover the 23rd and the 29th (tentatively) AND ALSO your entire schedule? Is that accurate?
What is your aim in saying no to this? Just to see the original plan actually followed?
I'm not pushing back... just want to be sure I understand the issues.
My initial thought is... (given what you know about my parenting issues with my H) if you feel like you're being taken advantage of, get it set in writing. If he's not taking his 50%, then request a bigger share of child support, to compensate for the disparity in care. Then keep your D. But most likely you'll have to have a log of changes to document the disparity.
Last edited by Maybell; 12/09/1411:43 PM.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
Hmm... so you spent Friday hammering out an agreement. Are these all exceptions to the agreement? What were the dates where he was going to have her the "first half of vacation" and you the "second half"?
Me:30 H:29, no kids T:12, M:4 (when D was final) 12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore" 6/14: Separated (I move) 1/15: H filed for D 5/15: D final
Thanks for responding K-girl. We never set actual dates. I requested one change from the agreement (12/27), to accommodate my parents... but i can change that if necessary.
Did I mention the part where I took our D for most of my two vacation days so far this fall, And Friday morning to Sunday 4:00 of thanksgiving weekend? And now he basically wants me to take nearly another whole week. (He said he could do Monday until 4:00. I guess that is his compromise).
I thought i was a quick learner but I feel so dense...still asking the same questions going around and around with the same issues all these months later.
I think the first question is - do you want D for more time, or do you really want a break and therefore something closer to 50/50 time over vacation?
If you want to/would like to have D for more time (and this is more about the principle of it or what's "supposed" to happen), why not just say OK?
If you need a break/you have already agreed to 50% shared time on holidays, you could say something like "Thank you for your suggestions, I'm glad we can talk about this together. I really need some more time without D during those two weeks to get some things done. If I will take her the 23, 27, and 29, that leaves me two more nights to take her - perhaps the 28 and X would make the most sense so they're back to back. That would leave you with [these five nights]." He mentioned he thought you were taking her for an extended period.. not sure what that's about. Have you said things that indicated you wanted her for more time or more than 50%? Or perhaps, have not complained much in the past when you've taken her for more time (like the Thanksgiving you mention?)
I guess I'm still confused (and maybe I just don't get it because I don't have kids and haven't gone through this) about the purpose of the mediation if no dates were set and none of it matters, anyway. I think you had expressed frustration in the past about not having a more set schedule...but it also seems like you would like some flexibility. It seems like it's hard to have it both ways, so what matters most to you? I feel like if I were in that situation and someone told me "we need to follow a schedule and get it set" and then said "but I would like this day changed," it would totally leave the door open for me to suggest changes of my own, too, because that means it's not really set, just a suggested schedule.
Me:30 H:29, no kids T:12, M:4 (when D was final) 12/13: "Don't think I want to be M anymore" 6/14: Separated (I move) 1/15: H filed for D 5/15: D final
Claire, if you can stand a couple more questions about this all: how is the holiday schedule different from your regular sharing schedule? And why? Is it because it's the holidays, or because D is off school and needs day-time care? I'm not understanding why your regular schedule is getting changed, sorry if you spelled that out somewhere, I'm just trying to brainstorm a little, but wanted the background if you don't mind.
Yes-- d is off from school and her babysitter (who is only part time nowadays anyway) will also be on vacation.
KGirl-- I see your point about flexibility a slippery slope. There will always have to be room for flexibility. I don't think that having a default schedule precludes that. It does give us something to work from.. and it gives us the right to say, calmly, "I'm sorry, that doesn't work for me".
What is so frustrating right now is that the communication and conflict resolution skills we still need to improve in order to have a good co-parenting relationship are the same ones we'd need to have a happy marriage. I'm annoyed that I have to do that work (with H) anyway without the benefit of feeling like it was leading to a repaired marriage. I have some resentment about that I think. Why? It makes perfect sense to me why I have resentment, and also makes perfect sense why I need to let it go.
Back to square one and a beginner's mindset I guess
More happened this morning but I just dont have time to write now.
What is so frustrating right now is that the communication and conflict resolution skills we still need to improve in order to have a good co-parenting relationship are the same ones we'd need to have a happy marriage. I'm annoyed that I have to do that work (with H) anyway without the benefit of feeling like it was leading to a repaired marriage.
Claire, what if you re-framed this? These conflict resolution skills will benefit you in your co-parenting, and they'll benefit you in a new R. That R might be with your H and it might not be. So what? You get the benefit either way, yay for you.
I felt pretty detached, actually. I said what I've had to say and there will be no more R talks initiated by me. He started to get worked up over a date we had in conflict. I said, calmly, "it looks like we both made assumptions about when vacation started and how we would split the time. I don't want to impede your life, but I want to have mine, too." He didn't argue with that.
And then we were talking about our D's birthday, coming up soon, and how we will split up the weekend. He asked me if I thought it better for him to have a celebration with his family the day before her birthday, during lunchtime OR a dinner celebration on her actual birthday, after she spends the bulk of the day celebrating with my family.
I said, "that's your call. I'm sure you'll figure it out."
H responds, "I know I'll figure it out, but I'm asking her mother for an opinion".
Oh. I didn't take the bait, stayed detached and said, I'm sure either would be fine. He left. I called out, "'night!" He couldn't even look at me when he left.
I'm not doing the pick me dance anymore.
Booked tix for two weekends away with girlfriends, have tentative plans to co-host a super bowl party, working on the GAL.
Claire, you sound great! Good job giving up the pick me dance, and major props on the GAL. I'd like to go out of town after the new year, too. I didn't have much of a life the past 10 years and it's hard to rebuild, but I'm trying. You are inspiring me.
rppfl, that's really nice of you to say! it's taken me a lonnnnng time to get here...and I am still very much a work in progress.
But, this week I'm certainly being tested. H and I are trying to plan our D's birthday party together. Historically, H was always the planner of the family. (not that I never did anything, but he planned vacations and bigger events). This year, I offered to take on the bulk of the planning. But, I'm not proud to admit that time got away from me (I've changed in a lot of positive ways, but multi-tasking and managing big projects is still difficult for me. I'm working on it.)
Anyway, in the past, this would have led to H sounding annoyed and frustrated at me, and me feeling defensive and ashamed that I had disappointed him yet again. But this time, the interaction was totally different. We've communicated about it in a really positive way. He offered to help, in a gentle way, and I responded without getting defensive.
Our entire lives together would have been so different if we had known how to communicate this way while we were together.
But I'm not going to reach out to him to tell him that. I've let him go. If he thinks I want to get a divorce, he's wrong. If he thinks I've come to terms with it--that I'm "ok" with it... he's right.
Our entire lives together would have been so different if we had known how to communicate this way while we were together.
Claire, good job on the interaction with H. Maybe learning these skills would have changed the M, maybe the outcome would have been the same, who knows. But your D is going to be the one to benefit from this. And that's gold.
You sound like you are getting stronger with every interaction. I am in awe and hope to get there myself soon. Hang in and keep on keeping on! Wishing you the best.
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
Thanks rpp and Dawn. I have to say I felt really stuck and in turmoil for most of late oct/Nov...but feeling much stronger and more at peace the last few days..
Yes, corner turning is good, although the corners are not so smooth. Had a text msg exchange today that's left me tearing up and tight-chested. Bringing up a lot of anger and fear:
H: Have you paid home insurance. If not, I can call and pay via credit. Due this weekend.
Me: No I haven't paid. I'm sorry. I guess I thought it was automatic. Thank you for checking that. Can I ask your help some time in making a list of household related things that i'll have to take over if I keep the house? That would be really helpful. Thanks.
H: Car is auto(matic) but annual homeowner's policy isn't. Keep in mind, you can alter that cost. We can discuss that.
-------- So, he makes a little pun (car/"auto") and I'm sitting here reeling over the prospect of what single-life means for me.
F him. He is a f'ing jerk to walk out on me. F him F him F him.
And then my mind wanders to my MIL who emailed me to ask for bday gift ideas for my D. And I want to say to her that I don't think I can have a relationship with her that is friendly and normal like that, because unless you think I'm someone who deserved to be walked out on by your son, how do you not get involved? And if you think i deserved to be walked out on, why are you emailing me in this normal friendly way. Ask your f'ing son--you know, the one who walked out on his wife-- for gift ideas.
That's where my non-detached mind is right now.
I'm wondering where my cool, calm, confident self went to.
And then my mind wanders to my MIL who emailed me to ask for bday gift ideas for my D. And I want to say to her that I don't think I can have a relationship with her that is friendly and normal like that, because unless you think I'm someone who deserved to be walked out on by your son, how do you not get involved? And if you think I deserved to be walked out on, why are you emailing me in this normal friendly way. Ask your f'ing son--you know, the one who walked out on his wife-- for gift ideas.
Claire, don't do this. You know your MIL can't desert your H. But clearly she likes you too. Don't make her choose sides, because you will always lose that. This isn't easy for her either. I know my MIL still roots for me, she hopes that we will R, she has often told me over the years that I have been very good to/for W. She thinks my W is nuts to go, and she thinks I should have full custody of kids (!). And yet she sends Bcard to W saying she loves her and is proud of her. What else can she do? She is very troubled by all of this. I like my MIL and I will treasure that R regardless of what happens with W.
Claire, I agree with Zew on this. Don't go there. I had a lovely conversation with my MIL this afternoon asking what the kids wanted for Christmas. She has waited so late that I'll most likely be the one doing the shopping for her because she can't get it shipped in time. She loves me and she loves her grandchildren. And she loves her son - the one who walked out on his wife. There's no reason to make her choose between us, it's not her fault.
It's so hard to seem them act so cavalierly about disentangling our shared lives, isn't it? I'm so sorry he upset you.
But you know what? You asked for his help and he responded in a light-hearted, friendly manner. That's not all bad. Also (and I know it's easier to say this from the outside looking in), he may have been following your lead -- assuming that you were comfortable with the conversation since you brought it up.
I agree with zew -- no reason to cut ties with MIL just yet. Chances are she thinks her son is a fool too but doesn't feel comfortable saying that to you because of her loyalty to him.
I agree with what the other posters said. My MIL and I are very close and I have had the opportunity to tell her how I feel about my situation with her son, though I don't believe it's helped much. She's said she wants to express her feelings about the separation but she wants to wait until "after the holidays" which I understand, but my H's family has a tendency to sweep problems under the rug big time and would rather ignore issues than face them head on, whereas my family is the total opposite. And then, as I've mentioned before in my own thread, there's the issue of Christmas Eve dinner, and H has said he wants to bring the children without me, so this will be the first Christmas Eve dinner in almost 10 years I haven't attended and it makes me sad to think of everyone watching my kids open their gifts and interacting with them without me. There's a small part of me who thinks such an event could help wake H up to the reality of this whole thing. This will be the first family function he's attended without me since we started seriously dating and I think it will be awkward to be there with the kids and not me... but that's a big assumption. Sorry to ramble on your thread but I've followed your posts for a while and can relate to so much of what you've written—in fact my H just called as I was typing this to talk about a schedule change for tomorrow and I was very casual and we were both just like "Ok, sounds good, talk to you later, bye!" and to me it feels like this is all so easy for him and I'm going along with the program, when in reality the idea of D and separate holidays, vacations, lives, etc. still makes me queasy. My H's father also divorced his mom when he was very small, but he doesn't think it's the same.
Reading your threads has helped me a lot. You are doing so well. With or without your H I can tell you've got a fabulous life ahead of you. Hang in there.
Last edited by Lorelai; 12/18/1403:12 AM.
Me: 38 H: 43 Kids: 2,4 T10 M6 BD: 1/14 11/14: H moves out
ME: 38 BF: 40 T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice) BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R. 10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW 12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
Claire - way too many "F him"'s in the last few days. Gotta work on that PMA and not wasting energy on him.
Instead of this:
Quote:
D: starts crying. "I want baby doll!" H: "well, she's not here.. She's at our house" D cries more.
I had already said goodbye so I just left.
F him.
How about something more like this:
Quote:
D: starts crying. "I want baby doll!" H: "well, she's not here.. She's at our house" D cries more.
I had already said goodbye so I left.
I knew my D was in good hands and that my H would figure it out. I was really happy to have the day entirely to myself and eagerly headed off to do ...
Even though I agreed with Elsa's sentiment, I have to say zew is right. Try got get that PMA and self-confidence we've all admired back on track, but the holidays do make it difficult. I'm feeling sooooo similar today for so many reasons. Going to go post on my own thread.
Me: 38 H: 43 Kids: 2,4 T10 M6 BD: 1/14 11/14: H moves out
Thanks, everyone. Today was a tough, intense day. Big, important day at work, and I felt so anxious and off all day.
My anger this morning was mostly about what he's putting our D through. To see my sweet girl crying because a favorite toy was left at her other home was heart-breaking.
As for the fear? I don't know. Taking over all the financial stuff, being alone, a combination of a ton of stuff.
As for the fear? I don't know. Taking over all the financial stuff, being alone, a combination of a ton of stuff.
Claire, for me, figuring out my fears was critical. I was afraid of the finances. I went to see a L. Two, actually. And I dug up account statements and opened mail that I normally wouldn't. And after that I wasn't afraid. I still haven't actually taken over the finances, but at least I understand things now. And I know I'll be OK.
I was afraid that my kids lives would be ruined. And my IC made me spell out exactly how their lives would be different and what was going to be so terrible. And most of what I spelled out was really petty and easily overcome. Yes, D12 spends the night at two different places. And it's not going to scar her. She has two parents who love her and who cooperate fully in raising her. Still.
I was afraid of being alone. But you know what? I was alone a lot anyway. H travels on business a great deal, he had business dinners out, and he had what he told me were business dinners out. He wasn't home that much, ever. I got up at 5:30am every day, sometimes he was up before I left at 7:00am, sometimes he wasn't. He got home at 8:00pm or later if he was in town. On and on and on about RPP being alone. I'm good at it. I have friends. I have kids. I have cats. I'm fine.
The one thing I really miss is sex, I'll be honest about that. But the sex in the last year had not been stellar and certainly not enough of it. So even that wasn't some utopia I gave up.
Bottom line is, Claire, take some time to really think through this. Identify your fears. Look at them. What's the truth? We can build up the monster under the bed to be some terrible beast, but when we shine the flashlight, it's a dust bunny. Face your dust bunnies.
my IC made me spell out exactly how their lives would be different and what was going to be so terrible. And most of what I spelled out was really petty and easily overcome.
This is a great practice.
Once we allow ourselves to face the fear we find that it's not nearly as devastating as we allowed our mind to make it.
Look it right in the eye, Claire.
I loved reading the original Winnie the Pooh books with my kids. A favorite quote: You are braver than you believe, stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think.
Last edited by labug; 12/19/1404:19 PM.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Had a great day GAL with friends celebrating a friend's birthday.. but D was sick today, and on top of that, I was over an hour late to pick her up from H's house (long story)... AND tomorrow is her birthday.
On the long car ride to H's house, I started thinking about her. This time 4 years ago I was already counting minutes between contractions.
She was not even 3 when H left. That is such a short amount of time.
I have such a flood of emotion. Remembering the night she was born. It was a tough night-- I was in so much pain, stuck in the triage room for most of my active labor because there were no rooms available. And, there was no anesthesiologist available. And, because it was so late at night, my parents were not allowed to stay in the maternity ward waiting room-- they were far away in the emergency room waiting area. My dad kept pestering the nurses, to the point where they asked my H to step in.
My H was trying to shield me from that, and also so unsure of how to help me. All I wanted was for him to be calm and reassuring... and he was too anxious and stressed to do that. In some ways that was the beginning of the end for me. He snapped at me, he got defensive. I was in labor and in excruciating pain and was getting snapped at by my H. I remember feeling like, "I can't believe this is how this is happening". It was such a stressful time.
There was so much more, in just a few short weeks: We closed on our house the very same day that D was born (H left us in the hospital most of that first day to sleep and then go to the closing by himself). Then, one of the biggest blizzards in NYC history hit. Then, we moved 2 weeks after D was born. Then, more storms that left me trapped at home.
Oh, and H was just 6 weeks into a new job at a high profile company with super high expectations. So, on top of everything else at home, he was trying to establish himself at work.
And, I was a mess--physically, emotionally, mentally.
As my IC said, the deck was so stacked against us.
Today triggers a lot of those memories and feelings. I think it's reasonable to feel a bit sad tonight.
Honor your experience and its impact on you. Not allowing your support system to be with you is hideous and inhumane. Birth is a time when we are at our most vulnerable and things that happen around that time can affect is in lasting ways. We try to put a brave face on and say it doesn't matter, but it does. Hugs to you. You're a survivor.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Great way to counter the negative thinking, Claire! I have a lot to learn from you! The birth of my first child was rather unpleasant as well. My H also started a new job a week before he was born and it was all he was focused on. As we were walking into the delivery room, he took a call on his cell from one of his new co-workers and ended the call with, "OK, I gotta go take care of something." I remember the nurse looking at me like my husband was crazy and she even said "Who is he talking to?" Rather inappropriate for the nurse to add her own "commentary" like that. But my H was not focused on the situation at hand. To make matters worse, my OB had me convinced I'd gone too far past my due date and insisted on an induction. So I had 14 hours of pitocin-induced labor, an epidural that wore off three times and then finally, a c-section, all of which probably would have been unnecessary if we had waited for the baby to come on his own. Meanwhile H was glued to his laptop constantly even though his new job told him not to worry about work and to just focus on me. If he had stayed at his old job, which I wish he had b/c I'm pretty sure his new job is where he met OW or at least the idea than an OW could be better (this has not officially been confirmed but there definitely was an emotional affair). He had enough seniority at his old job that he was going to be given four to six weeks off just to be home with us. We were both looking forward to that time together, but he also wanted to change companies, so when an opportunity came up, he took it without getting a raise and ending up with a lot more work and stress for both of us at such a critical time.
A friend of mine on the other hand has a great and very attentive H who she said was extremely irritable and rude during the birth of their second child. So I guess it's a stressful time for everyone.
Me: 38 H: 43 Kids: 2,4 T10 M6 BD: 1/14 11/14: H moves out
I just want to jump in on this to give a H viewpoint. Please please please don't think I'm comparing the H and W parts of child birth though just want to explain it from my perspective.
For both my kids my W labour was over 40 he's. I was there the whole time. For me the whole experience was massively emotional and I had a couple of short naps in an uncomfortable chair while the painkillers were at their best.
Now through this I also had a bunch of fears to contend with, what if something happens to my wife, what if the baby isn't OK, what if Im made to choose.
At the same time a woman in labour can be a fairly fraught roommate so I got some serious grump directed at me. All perfectly understandable and fine but makes the experience a but stressful for us guys to - and we react in different ways to stress.
When my second was safely born and everyone was ok , I nearly feinted at the sense of relief - I had to get some fresh air. I was gone 3 minutes. My wife has since said that at this point she felt like I'd abandoned her.
I suppose what I'm saying is that the whole situation is stressful on us guys too and we don't always do a great job of dealing with that but it doesn't me we don't care or that we aren't incredibly proud.
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
Jim-- at the moment, and for a while after I couldn't understand. But I get it--i really do.
Apparently my father was becoming really belligerent with the nurses who were not allowing any of our parents to stay in the maternity ward. My H was embarrassed and was trying to manage that situation-- by this point it was probably midnight. It was a long day for everyone.
And... after D was born,, H stayed with me for a couple of hours (till 6 am...then went home to get some rest before closing on our home later that afternoon all by himself. Then, he came back to the hospital 12 hours after he left. We looked at each other and said, "it's still today! How can that be?!" It was really crazy. What a stressful time for everyone.
I wish he had been able to say something like, "I know I was a little short with you--this was a super stressful day, and I am so so so proud of you! You did amazing under tough circumstances." Some words of affirmation would have erased everything I think. But I don't remember those. Does that mean he never said it? Who knows. I remember other things he said and did (or didn't say and didn't do).
We never really talked about it.
Doesn't look like we ever will. I'm accepting that, but this day still brings up strong emotions.
The words of affirmation came up from my wife too but only recently. She said 'you never told me you were proud of me'
I couldn't believe this when she said it, I couldn't understand how she could have doubted it. I can't remember exactly what I said but there was certainly a lot of affirmation.
I was so happy to have a beautiful little boy with this amazing woman. I was happy, grateful, relieved, shattered and starting to think of what comes next, and I'll be honest a little bit grimmed out (theres a lot of fluid involved) all at the same time.
At the same time childbirth took so much out of her I think a herd if unicorns could have sacheted through the hospital and I'm not convinced she would have noticed.
I was and still am so very proud and it saddens me to think she doubted it. I'd be willing to bet that'd be true of most husbands.
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
I know I'm guilty of it to but its amazing how often I read on these boards about long held resentments over things which fundamentally seem to be a basic misunderstanding or miscommunication.
This conversation just reminded me of that
I clearly don't know your H other than what you've written about him but I will say something on his behalf in relation to his feelings that day because I'm 99.9% certain its true.
'Claire, the day D3 was born was one of the happiest and at the same time most stressful days I've experienced. There was so much going on that I wasn't able to focus on you in the way I wanted to, but please don't doubt how incredibly proud I was of you and grateful I was for the beautiful daughter you gave me. You were amazing. Thank you'
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
You didn't offend me, if that is what you are worried about, but that is a bit of mindreading you are doing! I mean, it's possible he felt that way, sure.
I don't think it matters much now. At this point, I think I'm willing to wipe the slate clean and start anew-- to forgive him and let go of resentments and rebuild. He's not.
No of course not. Did I write something that implied that? Just meant that we both were harboring resentments... perhaps he resented me for not being able to appreciate the stress he was under. My point is that there's not much i can do about our R if he's not willing to forgive me.
That is not his entire measure of a person but he does have some underdeveloped R skills.
I remembered that I used to tell him that things weren't working for us and that we needed help. He dismissed my feelings and refused. He and I seem to have different notions of what it takes to make a relationship work. That doesn't make him evil.
I'm going to add something to this discussion-maybe for future reference. Childbirth is my area of expertise.
The father of the baby is not always the best birth support. They're thrown into a monumental, life-changing situation for which they have absolutely no experience or frame of reference. Doesn't make them bad Hs or dads, anyone might flounder when faced with a scary, unfamiliar process over which they have no control that goes on for hours. It's grueling and can be detrimental to the R.
Having a great woman friend or relative who can be a support and strength to the whole family can make all the difference. It probably shouldn't be the mother who stands around with a worried expression on her face. There are also doulas, not the goofy type you see on sitcoms, who do amazing work and take the pressure off the H and the mama.
About being "grumpy" and "rude" during labor, most women are at some point in labor more scared than they've ever been, so an H who can't handle a bit of grumpiness definitely should excuse himself to regroup and not bring it up later. Relationship difficulties that are already existing can be intensified during labor but so can strengths.
Childbirth is so much more than the physical process. We don't give it its due.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Is your entire measure of him as a person based on his willingness to return to the marriage?
Maybell, this is a fascinating question. The obvious answer, is no, we don't judge people by such narrow criteria. But there's something there I need to think about, it's hitting me too hard not to explore. Thanks for throwing it out there.
Labug: Re childbirth: if I had to do it again there is so much I would do differently. And a Doula during and after birth would be at the top of my list, as would paying for a private room. I mean, the fact that we had so much else going on that was occupying our minds (home-buying, moving) should have made it a no Brainer.
There is so much I would do differently, but hindsight is 20/20.
Several of us are struggling with the card it seems. I didn't know how to sign ours. I ended up with all five names, most people don't know anyway. But I gave H enough blank cards to send to his business partners, that was something I did for him as his wife. This year he can do that himself!
You know, two years ago, I didn't have the energy to open the cards either, and that was before OW even started. I think I knew things were on a thread even then. Last year I was in full rescue mode and heroically made GORGEOUS cards, photo plates for MIL and FIL (which I never even saw; D11 told me this summer they look great) and a year-in-review Shutterfly book AND one of the history of H and I. This year, I'm all crickets.
I think after this year I'd like to rethink my holiday expectations. Less stuff, more life. Less pressure to do great cards and more mindfulness in letting the people I care about know how much they matter. All the effort I mustered last year amounted to tears and exhaustion on one of my favorite holidays of the year. That's not what a holiday should be.
A few years ago when one of my friends was getting divorced, I told her I wanted to give her the gift of a family portrait of her and her kids to celebrate her revamped family. We spent a LOT of time moving her furniture around too. Things to think about.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
Labug: Re childbirth: if I had to do it again there is so much I would do differently. And a Doula during and after birth would be at the top of my list, as would paying for a private room. I mean, the fact that we had so much else going on that was occupying our minds (home-buying, moving) should have made it a no Brainer.
There is so much I would do differently, but hindsight is 20/20.
This getting what we need, not just accepting wwhat we're handed is true of many areas in life.
There's usually always a different option and often a better option. We just have to know our needs and be willing to do some research.
Where we are now is a result of choices we've made all along the way.
We can start making better choices for ourselves. That's the beauty of this.
Me 57/H 58 M36 S 2.5yrs R 12/13
Let me give up the need to know why things happen as they do. I will never know and constant wondering is constant suffering. Caroline Myss
Holidays were always "just another day" for me until I got together with BF. One of the huge things in our life when we first shacked up was how holidays would be full of joy and light again, now that I had someone to share it with.
Now it's back to "just another day", because OW is now going to BF's family for Christmas eve festivities and he'll be doing things with her and her daughter the day of.
Depressing.
ME: 38 BF: 40 T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice) BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R. 10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW 12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
You make a great point about being in the moment of the holidays. Yes, the portraits would be for me and D, and maybe for my family.
I've been thinking a lot about your question about how I measure H's character. Your comment stung a lot at the time. And the obvious answer is of course there is more to his value as a person than whether he returns to our M.
But there are other, complicated sides to it. His choice to abandon the marriage without any REAL effort to improve it (he says he tried hard and did 'everything'-- but I'm sorry, that is just a load of BS)... that choice feels so incredibly selfish when I think about the pain that his choice has brought to so many of the people he cares about-- his D, his parents, his family and friends.
Some day I know I'll be past it. But I'm not there yet. I'm just not. Maybe it's because I don't feel very close to my family--though they are emotional terrorists to me-- and that I don't have a large group of very close friends (and right now during the holidays, most of the people I would want to spend time with are away, or spending time with their own families-- while H and my D are spending the next two days with his friends and their kids.
It's so incredibly hard right now to not have anger in my heart towards him for snatching a life away from me. I want to be a family. I don't want to be a part-time mom. I don't want to have to go over the calendar with my D and say, "You're going to spend the next two night with Daddy, and then after that two nights with Mommy".
FOR WHAT? Because he is too immature or emotionally stunted or weak to be willing to put in ANY effort to explore or change feelings about our M? Because he has this infantile idea that feelings can't change (well, I guess he believes they can only change in a negative direction), and that people can't change, and that you either love someone or you don't?
How do I not feel betrayed and angry about that?
I've had a couple of vivid dreams the past week where H and I ended up in a R discussion, and I was able to really articulate how this felt, and he was actually able to hear it and understand, and there was some hope that we'd be able to work on our R. And then I woke up and realized it was a dream, and felt hurt all over again.
How does a man of integrity do this to a family? Not just me-- his D, his parents, his family and friends. How does NONE of that impact encourage a person to be willing to choose to have some hope?
labug has asked me what my fear is. Maybe it's that I'll never trust someone again. I'd need to know that someone has a realistic expectation of what marriage and relationships are like-- and that someone would be willing to do the work. And I don't know how I would find that out before it's too late.
Maybe it's just because it's a holiday, maybe it's because it's raining out, but my heart is really hurting right now. I guess it helps to just share that. I don't really have anyone else to share it with. Sometimes I want to just let myself feel this hurt-- it is a legitimate hurt to have to miss out on huge chunks of your child's life, and to miss out on other relationships that came with the marriage. Right now I don't want someone telling me that I'll be ok. (I know I will). I just want someone to hug me and say, "I'm so so sorry you are going through this. I know it really [censored]."
I know I won't feel like this forever, I don't feel like this all the time, but I feel like this right now. And that's ok.
Claire, I'm so sorry you are going through this. I know it really sukks. It's OK to be sad, to feel betrayed, to be angry, to be afraid. I'd say it's even critical to feel all those emotions and understand where they came from and be able to process those feelings. And I know you'll move past them when the time is right. Hugs to you (((Claire)))
But there are other, complicated sides to it. His choice to abandon the marriage without any REAL effort to improve it (he says he tried hard and did 'everything'-- but I'm sorry, that is just a load of BS)... that choice feels so incredibly selfish when I think about the pain that his choice has brought to so many of the people he cares about-- his D, his parents, his family and friends.
I like what Betsey says: her XH gave it his best effort. It was a lousy effort, but it was the best he had to give.
Happy holidays, dear. I hope you find peace and joy in the new year.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
So, it's not that he lacks integrity, per se, it's just that he's kind of 'meh' as a person, in terms of the effort he is able to put forth into a marriage and family?
(though I think one could argue that [i]strength[\i] is part of integrity)...
Sounds like his dad.
So... I'm better off without him and there are still a few other men out there who do have more strength of character, and have more realistic expectations of relationships, and are not as afraid to express emotions or actually recognize that there are relationship skills that can be developed?
That's kind of what I've been thinking when I've seen him lately. I felt emotionally detached at our hand-off today. I'm not pining for him, because I don't see him as the great catch I used to. Yet, I'm still sad about this situation. Can I be detached from HIM, yet still be very sad about losing time with my D, and being pushed to the sidelines among his family and friends, and about not being part of an intact family? I think I can, today, for sure.
I like what Betsey says: her XH gave it his best effort. It was a lousy effort, but it was the best he had to give.
Claire, I know this is hard to understand, but there's some validity to what MB says here. From our viewpoint, they didn't try at all. From theirs, they did everything.
I dated a guy in college who just wasn't capable of loving anyone the way I wanted to be loved. He just couldn't. And I know he was trying, he was giving me his very best effort. I recognized it at the time. It still wasn't enough.
Maybe it's not that your H (and mine) didn't try. Maybe they just aren't capable.
FOR WHAT? Because he is too immature or emotionally stunted or weak to be willing to put in ANY effort to explore or change feelings about our M? Because he has this infantile idea that feelings can't change (well, I guess he believes they can only change in a negative direction), and that people can't change, and that you either love someone or you don't?
How do I not feel betrayed and angry about that?
You do feel betrayed and angry. It's normal and natural.You have to feel it to get past it.
But you can't change any of it.
Your H's actions are/were deplorable in terms of how one treats another human being. They were/are selfish, narcissistic, and frankly doing this to you and your kids proves he's probably an a$$hole.
Now what? What's next for Claire?
You cannot dwell on this forever. You cannot sit in this place of seething anger long term, because all you're doing is stymieing YOUR life and what you deserve.
HE doesn't give two chits; he's primordial ooze when it comes to other people's wants and needs and his only focus is on himself. He's going to be in WAS la-la land while you fester and seethe and miss out on your blessings (they're numerous if you open your eyes to count them).
It's like holding a burning rock and expecting someone else to get burned. But that's not how it works. YOU get burned, YOU get hurt even more and YOU are the one affected negatively.
This crap BLOWS. It hurts so freaking badly it hurts to breathe and existing is agony.
But you can stay there or you can say "F!@#$% YOU, H" and try to grab happiness in the little things (for now) and the bigger things when you're more healed.
Happiness is within YOU, not within your H. Take your power back. Explore what makes Claire smile.
((HUG))
ME: 38 BF: 40 T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice) BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R. 10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW 12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
Sit with that anger. Feel it. Work through it. If you don't it will keep coming back and thats not healthy. Personally, I pounded a lot of nails and tossed a lot of hay bales around. All in anger. Curse, cry, punch (soft things, carefully), throw things. Whatever it takes to release it.
M42 W40 T17 M15 S13 S11 BD 7-14 A discovered 7-14 WAW moved out 10-3-14 D final 2-23-15
For what it's worth though, I think you're doing really well and are showing excellent strength through all of this. 