Just keeping things real here. I can only trust what you post here and hope you do have the humility to ask what you can do to improve your situation. Take Vertex's situation for example...he's opened up and admitted to doing some really not nice things. He's genuinely asking for assistance on some of the ways he can turn around his situation.
What I appreciate Vertex the most is that he's been very open from the very beginning and is not hiding the fact that he's done some really awful things. Vertex has outlined some things that he's taking ownership of and we all see that.
Sometimes with you, we cannot always be sure which is why we sometimes ask the hard questions. Some posters leave out crucial information that we discover later and then go "bang! that's the real problem." Then the real work begins.
Mozza, I have nothing against you. You have a lot going for you. It is the omissions or not fully acknowledging some things that gets one in trouble here in the DB forums.
We are hard at times because we do key in on specific areas that are painful and make you look at it with open eyes...not flinching away or avoiding it just simple because it's too much or too painful.
We do this to SUPPORT you in making the necessary self-improvement changes to become a better person, better father, better spouse...
I want nothing but the best for you, your kiddos and W. I do want to see your family restored. Ayep...I do very much so.
Wonka - I really hope we can get past this. I see that you're very helpful to others on this forum and I need the help. I don't know what I can do to convince you that I'm not hiding anything, that I'm keen on learning from this. Look at posts like this one where I lay out what my W said when she left, or, even better, this one where I translated an entire email from six months pre-BD where she described her issues in the M. I've explained that I have not once critized my W since BD, I've shared sample conversations showing how I dealt with her anger without reciprocating. I don't know why you think that I'm less open than Vertex. But the length you went with that prank really hurt me, in real life. I had told you of the pain at the time, asked you to stop, yet you kept at it. To discover after the fact that you didn't mean what you said, that it was a prank to teach me a lesson... Well, I'm still reeling from it. I lost sleep and I cried a good deal, if you want to know. I know you feel justified because you think it was tough love, but I seriously encourage you never to do this again with someone else. There are other, more efficient ways. I believe it was an honest mistake and I want to get past it. In these darkest times of my life, I have little energy, PMA and time and I want to devote it to the right things. I'd be very, truly grateful for your help in this. I like what you write on other threads.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
I am so sorry for the hurt I've inflicted on you...my intent to was to demonstrate to you how your criticisms have hurt your W and kiddos deeply. Sometimes the best teachers show up to mirror back to you what needed to be addressed. That was my whole point and I do think you've had an awakening. Please know that it was not a prank or never was. I don't do pranks at all.
We will get past this because I am here to support you and do feel that you are more self-aware as you have grown quite bit over the past week or so. You may not always like my methods or approaches. However, your input has been noted and I will be respectful of it going forward.
We're good. Thank you, Mozza, for your willingness to open up and telling me what you need from me going forward. There may be times that some difficult questions may be asked and others will also do the same as a way to spur you on a path of personal growth.
Well, I want to talk about my sitch, but I just don't know what to say. I've entered a plateau in terms of interactions with my W. She moved out in September, I see her one minute per 2 weeks, it's been over a month I've known for sure for OM (suspected since the beginning), I've learnt last week that he's planning to move in with her in January. It looks like they'll be making it real. I'm fine with it: it will be a make or break for their R.
The only pending thing is: What do I do with her random emails? Right now, I respond to them because I want to be a positive presence in her life, something that will slowly replace the memory of our M that she took when she left. She seeks my presence through these emails, and I never initiate. I was too aloof during our R, so I make the effort (easy, now!) to be responsive.
I also have a good idea of what happened, what lead to BD. On my end, I was too critical of my W and she felt uncomfortable and undervalued around me. She voiced that several times to me and I failed to change. As for her, she openly dreams of everlasting romantic love that the daily grind can't deliver. My analysis isn't over, but it has matured in the last couple of months and I feel less urge to explore the reasons, the causes of my S.
I guess it's time to focus on myself. I've been fairly good at it so far. I see an IC ever since she used the S word, before the BD, and I find it helpful (though slow). I read books like T5LL and DR. I GAL a lot: I see a lot of friends, I accept every invitation, I took a cooking class, I started working out, I learn to cook new stuff, I'm a single dad every second week, etc. Maybe I need some more down time to think about what I want for myself. I don't even know where to start with this question.
My challenge is detaching. My moods are still pegged to my W's every (perceived) move. I feel I'm getting better over time though, but not all that much. I guess less than 3 months, with all the shocks, is still a short time.
Thoughts welcome...
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
I think many times we make simple things more complicated than they really are.
Women are attracted to happy, confident and emotionally strong men who seem to be going somewhere with their life. A man who lets a woman be who she is. A man who loves life.
Be that man. I would let her wonder what is going on and not show her all my cards. Set her emotionally free. Let her see emotional strength.
Absence is to love as wind is to fire...
It blows out the weak and kindles the strong.....
Keep it simple...... You're doing fine. Seek peace in your life.
It blows that your W is involved with OM. While in the initial stages of their A, the focus will be on each other. They will block out all other stuff around them...even you as the H.
Originally Posted By: Mozza
I also have a good idea of what happened, what lead to BD. On my end, I was too critical of my W and she felt uncomfortable and undervalued around me. She voiced that several times to me and I failed to change. As for her, she openly dreams of everlasting romantic love that the daily grind can't deliver. My analysis isn't over, but it has matured in the last couple of months and I feel less urge to explore the reasons, the causes of my S.
Then you can do 180s on them when you interact with W. Speak softly and look W in the eye. Try to be supportive of her when appropriate such as boosting her (i.e., she gives a presentation..just say "I know you'll knock it out of the park! You're very good at this."). Be sincere when you do this. When it veers into OM territory, look past the OM and don't even acknowledge him. I never did until recently with Ms. Wonka. Grrrrrr...fingernails on a chalkboard!
Do you know what W's possible LL are? Most of the time our LL are in pairs. Mine are QT and PT. What I mean by this is that when I receive them--QT & PT, my love tank is very full. There's a difference in giving and receiving LLs.
Thanks a lot Wonka. I really appreciate your thoughts. I feel a certain sense of withdrawal, now that there's much less to say about my sitch, yet I still think about it almost all the time.
I do feel better overall. Through my pain, I feel strangely optimistic. I realize that from the outside, my sitch must look like it's getting worse, but to me it's following the arc that I imagined at BD and the one that many successful reconciliations followed. I thought there was an OM to explain why W was in such a rush to leave (a repeat of 2009) and I think she found someone with whom it can't last (too little in common). Of course, it will start strong and they'll feel they're made for each other for a little while. Moving in together is going to normalize their love, according to the research I read. High expectations won't be met. Then she'll either settle with him nevertheless, rich of a new maturity, or realize that there are better options, including the new and improved Mozza.
Also, the more I read around here, the more I think that as much as I hurt my W and that I need to become a better man and H, I've much less to be forgiven for than some. It's doable. I give my couple a ridiculously high chance of reconciliation of 7/10 and I made the choice to be optimistic. It's a marathon.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
It blows that your W is involved with OM. While in the initial stages of their A, the focus will be on each other. They will block out all other stuff around them...even you as the H.
That's why I'm puzzled by her random emails. Why would she try to make me laugh, to get my reaction, to send me useful stuff, if she's so involved with her OM? Where does she find the interest for me? One thing to note is that she's not from this country and her network has been reduced by 95% now that she left me. All she has left are her colleagues (20-something who go out together) and a couple of older friends. She was (is?) upset that my friends and family are not really contacting her.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Originally Posted By: Mozza
I also have a good idea of what happened, what lead to BD. On my end, I was too critical of my W and she felt uncomfortable and undervalued around me. She voiced that several times to me and I failed to change. As for her, she openly dreams of everlasting romantic love that the daily grind can't deliver. My analysis isn't over, but it has matured in the last couple of months and I feel less urge to explore the reasons, the causes of my S.
Then you can do 180s on them when you interact with W. Speak softly and look W in the eye. Try to be supportive of her when appropriate such as boosting her (i.e., she gives a presentation..just say "I know you'll knock it out of the park! You're very good at this."). Be sincere when you do this. When it veers into OM territory, look past the OM and don't even acknowledge him. I never did until recently with Ms. Wonka. Grrrrrr...fingernails on a chalkboard!
That's encouraging because that's what I've been doing. When she initiates, I'm supportive. I even check my sense of humor to make sure it never diminishes her (I'm self-deprecating and it can extend to others...). She's in a "girl power" phase and is very assertive. She's in charge and doesn't give an inch. I accept that and never get in the way. In fact, I'm happy about that and would have welcomed it in our R. It also seems to be very typical of WAWs, from what I read around here, especially as she felt she was walking on eggshells around me. Really, if she wants to justify her departure on my behavior, she has to rely on the past, because I haven't given her much to chew on since she left. In fact, she seems to be enthusiastic about our contacts, even calling my parents to tell her how well we get along. My fear: she thinks this is evidence we're fantastic co-parents and not meant to be in a couple.
I have never acknowledged the OM, apart from two exceptions. When she announced their R by email, I replied simply "Thanks for telling me." Also, before being the offical OM, he came to help her move her remaining stuff. I said "Hi", walked past him and didn't talk to him for the rest of the hour. I noticed she's also careful never to mention him and they don't seem to have appeared together on social networks.
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Do you know what W's possible LL are? Most of the time our LL are in pairs. Mine are QT and PT. What I mean by this is that when I receive them--QT & PT, my love tank is very full. There's a difference in giving and receiving LLs.
Yes, I read T5LL and it's clear to me that her principal receiving LL is Words of Affirmation. I now recall the many times she told me "You need to TELL me X". She'd sit on my lap and ask "Do you love me?" and I'd dismiss her with a quick "Of course". Her second receiving LL would be physical touch. We had desire and frequent sex until the end, but mostly she's the kind of girl always seeking a hug. She'd tell me: "Why do you hug the kids and not me?" and I had no response (working on it with IC -- he thinks maybe I didn't love her after all?!). Her giving LLs were probably PT and Gifts, but it's less clear to me.
My principal receiving LL is Quality Time. Sometimes I need complete and undivided attention, which she would rarely give me towards the end, leading to arguments, in part because I didn't realize I'm special in that regard. As for the LL I give, I believe it's Acts of Service: I'm a very involved father (50% of childcare, cooking, cleaning...), I give her the freedom to go out, including holidays alone, I'd spend much time helping her find a job, etc.
As you can probably tell, we spoke of love past each other a lot...
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
Can you please give me a quick run-down on the timeline of BD, your discovery of the OM, your current status, etc? This will help me give me some ideas on the next steps for your sitch.
Oh thanks, that's exciting. DB really starts in 2014, but here's some context.
Feb 2005: We meet in her country, at our workplace. Start dating in 3 weeks (check for patterns!). Sept 2005: We moved to the US (neither our country). It's the first time she lives with a BF.
May 2007: We decide to have a baby. March 2008: Our first daughter is born. 5 months maternity leave. W happy to go back to work.
May 2009: W has an A with a sweet-talking, married colleague. EA first, then PA during business trip. He disappoints and she wakes up, preferring to keep our family together. She confesses A to me, I forgive her, we move on. Not much is done for lasting changes.
May 2010: We get married, mostly for visa reasons, at 3 weeks notice. We have a small ceremony at city court, matching outfits, pictures, 7-8 friends, meal, etc. W insist it's a M for love, not for papers (I agree!). Pictures go up in the house.
Jan 2011: We decide to start paperwork to move to my country (she initiated the idea). Painful bureaucratic process takes its toll. Sept 2011: Second daughter is born. W very very attached to her. 4 months maternity leave. She develops some anxiety not long after. Gets some medication.
June 2013: We move to my country. I start my company, she's jobseeking and freelancing. It's a career change for her, I'm supportive. She spends over a year mostly at home and discovering this new city, which she prefers to the previous one. She develops an adaptation trouble and takes anti-depressants for it, but says she's happy with the move. We argue more often and intensely, sometimes in front of kids, which she dislikes a lot. Love tanks empty.
Aug 2014: W finds a job in an exciting startup full of people in their 20s. They go out several times a week, drink at work, have chess games and Playstations, etc. True startup. Sept 2014: W announces she wants S. Wants to be alone, not in a couple. Acknowledges that "work" has made her see a better life. Two weeks after first mention of S, she's in her own apartment (move paid by well-off parents) a quarter-mile from my apartment. Colleagues, including OM, do the heavy lifting. I'm not involved. Oct 2014: OM is confirmed when D6 tells me at Halloween that OM is there 4-5 days a week including in the morning. He was giving gifts, invitation, compliments from day 1. He's handsome, athletic and 10 years my junior. I'm not surprised. I say nothing. A week later, W emails me the announcement saying she "owed me the truth" and I should do the same if I meet someone, because of the kids. Nov 2014: D6 announces that OM will move in with W in January. I suspect love but also financial reasons.
The separation arrangement is not in writing: we agree on just about everything: kids 50/50, alternating week, we don't have a car or house, we always kept separate accounts, etc. Kids continue to go to the same school and daycare. We now have separate wardrobes for them. Barely need to communicate and when we do, it's cordial (Thanks! You're welcome!). W will go to her country for Holidays and I keep the kids for 2.5 weeks.
We had some tensions in the first weeks because she was dealing with S and also issues at work (too much work, nasty boss). I never argued back and she calmed down. She invited me for lunch twice: first one (Sept 30) we were a mess, second (Nov 5) just after OM announcement is the near-perfect DB lunch with chit chat and laughs. She contacted my parents to say she missed them and that she and I get along so well. She sends me those random emails and engages in banter. She told me and other people have told me that she doesn't really talk about the S and when she does, it's a somewhat "official version" about us being incompatible. She says she doesn't want to look back because she's going forward.
Anything else might be useful? I'm very grateful for your attention.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
