On one hand, she's telling you she doesn't love you. On the other hand, she's telling you that she wants to remain friends with the OM and also still married to you. Do you see where her conflicting emotions are? She probably has no idea what's going on in her head.
Create a script. Learn it. Memorize it. It should go something like this: "I admit to my part in our troubles, and I'd do a lot differently if I could. I'm willing to work on our marriage and rebuild to a place of loving trust again, if you are. We can't do that when you have any contact with the OM; it's disrespectful to our marriage. The choice is yours on this."
Then maybe also work in "It's your call, but I don't want to divorce; I want to fix our marriage." as appropriate when D talk comes up, too.
There's no need to get into anything else at this juncture; the D will only happen if she files (classic DB advice -- if they want the D, let them do the work) and it doesn't sound like she's in a place she wants to do that.
Your job is to state the facts (wording is so important) and then carry on with your life AS THOUGH she's welcome to come along, but you're not holding up your healthy existence for her.
That's actually how I presented it. She saw it as a "him or me" ultimatum. But that's her problem, if she chooses to see things that way. It's not my intent.
Oh, I know she's deeply conflicted. She was telling me how she didn't love me, and an hour later she was suggesting things I could do to make the patio entertainment-friendly next summer. I know better than to hang on things like that, but the conflict is self-evident.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Here's one: "I have not yet decided what I want to do about -----. When I do, I"ll let you know." "I am not willing to talk about this under the current circumstances." (She knows what those circumstances are.)
Show her with your ACTIONS. Get busy doing other things. Stop making her the focus of your thoughts and plans. Take your time responding to her, as long as you need to make your point short and sweet. The more words involved, the more you run into the possibility of the convo getting away from you.
Clint Eastwood's character is a man of few words. His actions speak for him. Be THAT guy! -----------------------------------------------
Amen to that. Talking about what to do with the house is one of those cross-that-bridge-when-we-come-to-it things. When she asked me that question, I was reminded that this may NOT be my home in the next year or so. It went all over me.
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But here's one for you:
Why indeed ARE you ordering prints and painting accents walls with your wife in a house you might be selling after divorce?
Whose idea was this and why is this important right now?
Like many of the WAW on this board, she seems to have an idea of what she wants (the kids to stay in the house) and that if you do not make those wishes come true, you are the bad guy.
Also, why are you working on this project with her when you're supposed to be detaching and GALing and not feeding into this fantasy world of hers?
Think about those and get back to me. -------------------------------------------------------------------
The house is one of those areas I'm struggling with. I'm OK with the children finishing out their public school years in their house with W. I know the advice is to NOT move out if you don't want to D, but per my attorney, whoever moves out first doesn't have any bearing on things like custody in my state. My W is a great mom, so right now I don't have any concerns in that area. To be honest, by the time she finally does decide she wants to D, I may be just as ready for it as she is.
That is still step 85, and we're on step...6.
My thought was that engaging with her on things that were not specifically R-related (being with the kids, home improvement projects), would help us reconnect. I think Starsky pointed out that I'm trying to piece too early.
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Now, as we say there is no magic bullet to fix your marriage, neither is there a magic bullet that blows all chances for R if you screw up.
We ALL screw up, big time. I have done so many times.
Things are going to happen. So she knows about this board. She changed her password on the phone. So it goes. Now you can't snoop the phone AND you know that she wants to hide certain things from you. (Been there, done that.)
It's probably a good thing that I can't snoop anymore. The temptation has been too great. She wasn't angry about me being on DB boards, she was supportive of me finding people to talk to. I just don't need to keep looking over her shoulder. That does neither of us any good. --------------------------------------------------------------------
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Your W knows how to play you like a fiddle, pluck on your heartstrings and play on your emotions.
You need to find a way to be something more formidable--a big old upright bass, for example, that throws her off.
Something Clint Eastwood might play.
Damn straight. She knows my buttons very well. And she hit a big one last night. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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IF I were you, and clearly I'm not, I would make myself scarce around her. If you can't control your emotions/actions (almost impossible at this point for the mere mortals among us) then don't be around her!
Sometimes some separation is a good thing to get away from all the insanity.
Can you take a trip or something? Go to a cabin in the woods with some fishing buddies? Go sight-seeing in NYC? Whatever floats your boat.
You've got to put some emotional distance in here for your well-being. Sometimes that requires a physical distancing for a time for you to get your head straight and get stronger.
One thing you can do while under the same roof is enforce your "No OM" boundaries by only dealing with her about necessary day-to-day operations. Period.
You can be friendly and kind about it, but you won't be helping her paint the house she doesn't want you living in. (Do I have that right?)
It's in the books... Make yourself scarce. Be too busy for her.
You are going to make things worse by continuing to engage and hang on her every word.
You've got to work on this. You have the info, now--as Vanilla said--there is no "TRY". Just DO it.
If you need to walk away--go to the bathroom, whatever, to get a break, do it. Just say: "I am not willing to discuss this with you now." And WALK AWAY.
Be strong. You can do it.
---(G)GGG
A trip is a little much right now due to work schedules, but I can certainly get busier than I have been.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
If you presented that script and she thought "It's him or me", isn't that pretty much what you stated?
Sounds like she got it just right. You're not going to be her H/BFF if she's with OM, right?
Sure, she's conflicted. They all are. On some level they know what they're doing is wrong, but they want to do it anyway, so they provide themselves with "reasons" why it's the right thing to do. Most notably is our massive failing as their spouses!
Of course, it's got to be that you drove her to this.
Because if you didn't, it means she is just a horrible person dragging her husband through the mud in pursuit of her own desires. Can't have that---so you've got to be the bad guy.
How does someone who thinks of themselves as a good person do horrible things to other people?
They convince themselves that person is their enemy, that they deserved it, that they were the catalyst, and drove the WAS to this course of action because they had no other choice.
Make sense?
Don't read anything into what she SAYS, remember? She's going to say and do things in complete opposition. They all do. You cling to hope with some of it, and fall into despair at the rest.
That's why they say not to believe anything she says, and only half of what you see her do.
The only thing to give you an indication of how things are going is to observe her consistent behavior over time, what the trends are.
After all, that's how she is going to measure YOUR progress as well.
Some of us on here have started logs where we track how we're doing, and the responses (observable, objective) from our spouses.
Like: Your goals for today are: Eat well, get exercise, do something social. Note how many times you end up spinning emotionally, that sort of thing. Over time, you'll see it gets better.
As for your W, you can track things like: She called just to say hi. She brought me dinner. She was out all night.
(Without the mind reading part. )
You can then decipher what your "trigger" situations are and plan how to handle those. You can see your progress, and you WILL progress at this.
My triggers were: Anytime I drank alcohol If I was really tired or hungry If I was upset about something else If H was texting on his phone, on his computer Grocery shopping for one Snooping Anything to do with OW....
I learned how to handle these situations better over time and now I'm about 90% under control around H, and 60% under control when I'm alone. That's a real improvement!
You can do it.
Oh, and if YOU don't want to move out of the house, then DON'T DO IT. You don't need to help her get rid of you! And we advocate not doing so because: A. it's not your choice to break up, and B. she should feel the sting of her choices, not just have you conveniently remove yourself from her reality as she wants. (My H wanted the same thing. Tough noogies. I'm still here!)
-Try reading "Co-Dependent No More" by Melody Beattie if you haven't. Might be helpful.
Thanks Okabe. I'm only 90 pages in and it's scary how much that book has spoken to me.
I did the checklist about 40 pages in. There's 230 items on the checklist, and probably 75% applied to me at least somewhat. I see that I'm classically codependent on her and have been for much of our marriage. It looks that she's more than a little codependent on me. I'm wondering if some of her current behavior is a reaction to that. I see a lot of my toxic parents described here too, especially my mother.
I should have read this book before DR, in my opinion
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
If you presented that script and she thought "It's him or me", isn't that pretty much what you stated?
Sounds like she got it just right. You're not going to be her H/BFF if she's with OM, right?
I guess it ultimately is a "him or me" thing, I was trying to present it as, "if he's around it will make our getting our relationship pieced together that much harder", instead of a simplistic "kick him to the curb or I'm leaving."
Quote:
Sure, she's conflicted. They all are. On some level they know what they're doing is wrong, but they want to do it anyway, so they provide themselves with "reasons" why it's the right thing to do. Most notably is our massive failing as their spouses!
Of course, it's got to be that you drove her to this.
Because if you didn't, it means she is just a horrible person dragging her husband through the mud in pursuit of her own desires. Can't have that---so you've got to be the bad guy.
How does someone who thinks of themselves as a good person do horrible things to other people?
They convince themselves that person is their enemy, that they deserved it, that they were the catalyst, and drove the WAS to this course of action because they had no other choice.
Make sense?
Are you SURE you're not the fly on the wall in our living room? That's her basic script. She feels bad about what she's doing and she talks vaguely about her contributions to the state of our M, but if I had been the better husband she deserved, she wouldn't have been vulnerable to OM.
Quote:
Don't read anything into what she SAYS, remember? She's going to say and do things in complete opposition. They all do. You cling to hope with some of it, and fall into despair at the rest.
That's why they say not to believe anything she says, and only half of what you see her do.
The only thing to give you an indication of how things are going is to observe her consistent behavior over time, what the trends are.
After all, that's how she is going to measure YOUR progress as well.
Some of us on here have started logs where we track how we're doing, and the responses (observable, objective) from our spouses.
Like: Your goals for today are: Eat well, get exercise, do something social. Note how many times you end up spinning emotionally, that sort of thing. Over time, you'll see it gets better.
As for your W, you can track things like: She called just to say hi. She brought me dinner. She was out all night.
(Without the mind reading part. )
A log's a good idea. I have a vague notion of trends, but I didn't think about being so systematic with it. I intellectually know not to believe what they say, but when she's looking me in the eye and telling how much I screwed HER up, it's hard to remember in the moment. Getting better, but that's a hump for me.
Quote:
You can then decipher what your "trigger" situations are and plan how to handle those. You can see your progress, and you WILL progress at this.
My triggers were: Anytime I drank alcohol If I was really tired or hungry If I was upset about something else If H was texting on his phone, on his computer Grocery shopping for one Snooping Anything to do with OW....
I learned how to handle these situations better over time and now I'm about 90% under control around H, and 60% under control when I'm alone. That's a real improvement!
You can do it.
Thanks, this is helpful. I can already pick a few of my triggers
Fatigue, sleepiness (last night's blowup happened about 11 PM)
W texting. I can tell by the look on her face when it's with OM.
Snooping. The conversations that I have read have all been pretty PG-rated. But I feel bad about me that I do it and that translates into anger at her. I also don't need to give her another reason to mistrust me.
-(G)GGG [/quote]
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
She feels bad about what she's doing and she talks vaguely about her contributions to the state of our M, but if I had been the better husband she deserved, she wouldn't have been vulnerable to OM.
That is whack logic! What I am hearing is that she's trying to absolve herself of responsibility by pinning the blame for OM on your shoulders. I hope you called her out on this.
She feels bad about what she's doing and she talks vaguely about her contributions to the state of our M, but if I had been the better husband she deserved, she wouldn't have been vulnerable to OM.
That is whack logic! What I am hearing is that she's trying to absolve herself of responsibility by pinning the blame for OM on your shoulders. I hope you called her out on this.
Oh you bet I did. I pointed out that yes I made mistakes with her that I regret but ultimately she's the one who wants to run from the M and get herself entangled with OM. She was actually at a loss for words after that so I knew I struck home.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
