Confusion is getting better, I think...

[Okabe]

I know you're right. It's not that I don't understand it. It is just hard to let go.
I have mostly been trying to detach. I admittedly have had a few lapses of judgement which I won't deny. I have stopped saying ILY, giving her hugs or kisses (with the exception of yesterday), and don't cuddle with her when she comes to bed. We are mostly co-parenting now and like roommates.
I appreciate you framing her as "not your wife nor lover", etc. While hard to hear it gives it a new perspective.
I guess I think I am starting to "get" detaching, but really need to work harder at it. I have to start watching closer as well to see what makes for positive interactions with her.

[sandi2]

Maybe this has already been posted, but I am going to copy & paste it. It explains about detaching.



Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.

[BigMac]

Sandi2 Thanks for posting those. They are golden.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks. It was impulsive.
I was thinking about it. While it was tolerated it is still not what I need. I need her to want that from me, not it to be tolerated by her for my sake.

The way I read the situation about affection and intimacy was that she wanted affection AND foreplay (before/during sex) but the two are not the same.

I have the feeling you did not show her affection UNLESS it was a prelude to sex which means it was not really just affection, and even that was lacking b/c you said you wanted to pretty much go at it when you wanted to ml, whereas she needed to warm up more (like almost every woman over the age of 25 does, btw...)

That's my .02 on that part of this. The other thing is that these "sandi's rules" you refer to are NOT "rules" but guidelines that are based on the principles of DBing and when she assembled those one afternoon, Sandi also mentioned that "not all apply"

and of course if your main issue in terms of intimacy s that you did NOT show her real affection - then is withdrawal from her such a great idea?

And make no mistake, the affection you are offering her is NOT a gift from you.

It's a request you are making OF her...for HER to GIVE YOU more affection, which is ironic, don't you think?




I am so (lots of emphasis on so) used to being the person who takes charge and makes things move forward in our home, relationship, etc, that it becomes hard for me to let that go.

Yes, well that is Often confused with OR properly labeled as "controlling". Don't scoff, it may be seen that way, like you pretty much take over & blame her for it.

It's coming across that way to ME and the other part is that it's clear you "do it all" with the expectation you'll be admired and thanked for it, and if not, you resent it.

I think the "low conflict" marriage was simply a repressed one. What do you think?


She often is very passive in doing things. People ask what she want (it can be anything): "I don't know" or "I don't care. Anything is fine" are her stock answers.

she sounds very depressed and apathetic, imo. Has she ever been treated or seen for that?

She is good at telling you if she doesn't want something, but being proactive in life: not so much. This is not just with me either, this is with family and friends. That is probably why I end up doing most of the stuff around the house.
In light of that I get fearful that she'll never tell me what she wants and she'll drag out this holding pattern indefinitely.
I know I need to let that go. Be proactive with myself. I am looking at some ACOA books to read for myself. My family has been in recovery for over 30 years, but who knows if there are some issues that are coming into play that I wasn't conscious of.

Been there, done that. I got something out of a few meetings but after awhile the stories sounded rehearsed and the participants like "victims" who were sort of into that.

I went back once, a few Christmases later after my dad died. And I heard a man tell a familiar story and I recognized him as a man who told the SAME story 5 years earlier as if it had happened the day before.

Turned me off to an extent. But please, by all means DO go if that helps you. Especially since you saw no affection at home and seem to think you are destined to repeat that.

You CAN break a cycle, you know?

Why not Start now?

[Okabe]

Thanks sandi2 for the list. I have read similar things, but the more I read, the more gets through eventually.
25yearsmic: sorry I cannot read half of what you wrote (the kindle fire is not the best for web browsing) .
In regards to what you did write:
You are not wrong about your assessment about me tying affection to intimacy too much. I definitely have done that throughout our M. I would try to not do that and be affectionate randomly as well, but I am sure not as often as she needed me to be.
I felt she isolated herself in many ways as well. But, who knows? Perhaps that was a reaction to me.
And I get the irony only too well about me asking for affection from her. It was a conversation I brought up with her (about wanting a hug from her more often) that brought everything out in to the open.
As far as withdrawal goes.. I am not hugging, kissing, or telling her that I love her. Otherwise I am friendly. I talk to her (as much as she wants to), but I am not isolating myself or brooding.
I couldn't see anything else that you posted aside from stuff I think was about AA or Alanon. I don't plan on going to meetings. My family does and have found benefit. I just wondered if I might have some codependecy issues that are at play.

[Okabe]

As far as repeating a family cycle of low affection. I am by no means good at it, but I have improved over my parents.
I will read more of the post when I have access to a regular computer.

[Okabe]

Finally got on a computer.
"Yes, well that is Often confused with OR properly labeled as "controlling". Don't scoff, it may be seen that way, like you pretty much take over & blame her for it.

It's coming across that way to ME and the other part is that it's clear you "do it all" with the expectation you'll be admired and thanked for it, and if not, you resent it.

I think the "low conflict" marriage was simply a repressed one. What do you think? "

You may have a point. I never thought of myself that way, but it's possible.
This is what I meant by my statement. I do the cooking (always have. I like it and work in a grocery store), shopping, cleaning, laundry, pay bills, yardwork, help with the kids etc.
It was divided, but skewed to me doing more things. Everyone saw this and commented at one time or another on it. I didn't mind. I defended her saying she did things as well (which she did).
After her shoulder injury there became less she could do, so I picked up what she couldn't do in support. Now she is taking classes (2 classes 2x a week and 1 online class). So I told her I would support her by helping more. I do the laundry (which she used to do pre-shoulder injury), vacuuming, taking the compost out, cleaning up after the dog when he messes in house (and she has gotten home before me and said she didn't see it. Maybe she didn't).
Right now she does her school work, helps with the boys (which she does a great job),takes care of her fish, and online games.
Here are some examples of what she doesn't take care of (they are strange to me): Often won't order a pizza for dinner (asks me to do it from work since she doesn't want to give out her card #). Doesn't call the doctor to make appointments or ask questions in regards to the boys half the time (says it is because of my work schedule, but I have worked the same schedule for years). I have picked up and mailed out her Dad and Step-mom'sX-mas gift for years.
I don't tell her what to do, or what to believe, or how to think. She is much too strong for that. She is stubborn. If you push her one way, she goes the the opposite or digs in (these are her words). She can be "hyper-rational" and always have a clear reason why to not do something.
She complained about not having adult friends and conversation besides myself through the years. I encouraged her to get a part-time job or find a club to join (she said it wasn't practical because of childcare issues). She wanted to go to school for years. I encouraged her. She said no. No money to do it, and wouldn't take out a loan and didn't think her Dad would help (come to find he would have).
If I had an issue with something in our M. I'd bring it up. She doesn't. I would have to pry things out of her when I could tell there was something wrong ( I eventually told her long ago that I couldn't keep guessing and that she'd have to let me know when something was bothering her because otherwise I couldn't address it).
As far as depression goes:
I'm not sure. It seems like she has always been like this. Her: "I don't know" or "I don't care" when people ask her things about what she wants seem to be just how she is rather than being something related to depression.
However, in the last 5 years she lost her Mother and her best friend. She lost her social outlet doing martial arts with me last fall after her injury. Her only social outlet is her online gaming friends (she plays 3-5 hours a night minimum). So is she depressed in light of that? Maybe. She has said she is lonely. I know that is in reference to me, but it could be exacerbated that she has very little social life. I don't know.
I don't write all this to blame her or abdicate responsibility for my own problems. Just to give an additional picture of our R. I think at times that maybe I have taken on too much and has made some unhealthy co-dependency in our R. And that I need to stop taking care of her so much. Perhaps she resents it? I don't know.

[Okabe]

A "repressed" M? Perhaps. I feel like a lot hasn't been said. By myself at times and I wonder if she hasn't said things as well (although I have asked).

[25yearsmlc]

Hi Okabe,

I'm posting and quoting b/c I find it easier to address specifics that way. But I"m not sure how it prints out or how hard it is for you to read, so do let me know, ok?
And my words are in blue.

I'll start first by saying she DOES sound depressed to me. Whether she's always been this way is another point but you'd have to tell me why you married her if she's always been this way AND IF it bothers you.

I can't tell, frankly. However, a woman who says she is "lonely" is a woman who sounds depressed; certainly not happy. Also I'm picking up a lot of "I'm Stuck" from her. Seems like it's by choice but I can't tell what role you played in that, if any.

The "I want to do 'x' BUT I can't..." is usually a road to resentment. Beware of it in yourself and in her & those around you. It's a trait you don't want to pass on.

Finally got on a computer.
"Yes, well that is Often confused with OR properly labeled as "controlling". Don't scoff, it may be seen that way, like you pretty much take over & blame her for it.

It's coming across that way to ME and the other part is that it's clear you "do it all" with the expectation you'll be admired and thanked for it, and if not, you resent it.

I think"low conflict" marriage was simply a repressed one. What do you think?" ---

You may have a point. I never thought of myself that way, but it's possible.
This is what I meant by my statement. I do the cooking (always have. I like it and work in a grocery store), shopping, cleaning, laundry, pay bills, yardwork, help with the kids etc.
It was divided, but [b]skewed to me doing more things. Everyone saw this and commented at one time or another on it. I didn't mind. I defended her saying she did things as well (which she did).[/b]

How do you think it made HER feel, to hear those^^^ comments? If she heard you defending her and if you did it well, it still would have gotten to her. IMO, It'd be a hard thing to hear a h complimented for helping around the house he shares with me...and FWIW,
I think almost no one would have said a word to HER, if the roles were reversed.

Seems like when a man does a fairly normal thing (like vacuuming or picking up after a dog mess OR just calling a house cleaner), it's seen as some act of service AND OR a bit of a failure on her end...

And when a home is not well kept, it's usually seen as a reflection of her. Far more on her than on her h, for sure.

Regardless, she sounds depressed and part of it is either reflected by AND OR Caused by, the activities she's doing/not doing.


After her shoulder injury there became less she could do, so I picked up what she couldn't do in support.


Well, "in support" of, or b/c it's just what needs to be done? I don't mean to quibble with semantics here, but that phrasing was a bit...IDK, "self serving" perhaps?

Just See if it might indicate an attitude in you, perhaps underscoring your apparent view that you are the "Giver" in the R (so who is the "taker" if not her?). In her eyes it might not be seen that way at all.

For instance, I do all the maintenance of our cars & if I can't do it myself I take the car(s) in to our mechanics and see to it.

My h knows a lot more than I do about cars, but they frustrate/bore him at times. I get a feeling of security and maybe even "empowerment" from knowing the cars are well maintained, & that we are Not going to have an unpleasant "surprise!" break down. It really means a lot to me. Too many bad memories of breakdowns in college I guess.

Anyhow, I don't see this as something I'm doing "FOR" him or "in support" of, b/c it HAS to be done by someone. So, Why not me? To be clear, I do Not resent this at all. I don't "count" it either.

Make sense?



Now she is taking classes (2 classes 2x a week and 1 online class). So I told her I would support her by helping more. I do the laundry (which she used to do pre-shoulder injury), vacuuming, taking the compost out, cleaning up after the dog when he messes in house (and she has gotten home before me and said she didn't see it. Maybe she didn't).

Except for the last part, ( which you clearly resented), it sounds like you are picking up the slack b/c she's either too busy or she can't do it physically anyhow.
Do you believe ^^this?

May I assume your beef with all this, is that when the kids are at school, she has a lot more "free" time than you, yes?

At some level, do you feel she's being lazy at home? I'm not judging you for that but I am asking if it's how you feel, deep down? Or a part of you?

B/C I sense it but I also get the feeling you won't admit it, yet you want it known. Do you know what I'm asking you?

Also, what is her recovery plan for her shoulder? is she in physical therapy to regain the full use of it? If not, then she's probably sentencing herself to being an invalid of sorts - long before her time for that. That can be very depressing (as can experiencing pain.)
I had a major surgery on my leg about a year ago. I can attest that it's very easy to give up and give in, and just not DO much with that appendage ---b/c it hurts! Plus you are afraid of re-injurying it.

But if you don't do the physical therapy, you'll never get your range of motion back. I really mean that. It's a big deal.


Right now she does her school work, helps with the boys (which she does a great job),takes care of her fish, and online games.

The online games are a little bit foreign to me & I'm not sure I understand it.

I do play a video game with my h now & then. We have played our adult son when he was in NYC. That was pretty cool, b/c we could hear him on our TV and it felt like we really were playing with our kids OR we heard our youngest playing online with her brother and that was pretty cool.

So, is your w on a computer playing and thus not interacting with anyone else in the room, or does she go off somewhere to play or are all of you sort of there, either participating or watching?

Can you explain it a bit more so I can visualize what you mean?


Here are some examples of what she doesn't take care of (they are strange to me): Often won't order a pizza for dinner (asks me to do it from work since she doesn't want to give out her card #).

Hmm, her reason sounds legit. So, not weird. What else about that?

Doesn't call the doctor to make appointments or ask questions in regards to the boys half the time (says it is because of my work schedule, but I have worked the same schedule for years).


I am not clear here^^. Does she work during the day? If not, are you saying she won't make a phone call for the boys, and if so, why not?

I don't get what does your work schedule (or you having the same schedule) has to do with it. Can you elaborate?


I have picked up and mailed out her Dad and Step-mom'sX-mas gift for years.

Scorecards are never helpful or healthy or constructive in a marriage. IMO, they are always destructive forces that erode loving emotions and foster resentment.

So I'd say to stop the measuring^^^ (you are keeping score) and ditch the scorecard, and don't pick it up again. I've had a scorecard myself so I know what it can do and what we tell ourselves it's doing. But man, you have to let it go. Newsflash, THE spouse has their own scorecard and on theirs, we are way behind...


I don't tell her what to do, or what to believe, or how to think. She is much too strong for that. She is stubborn. If you push her one way, she goes the the opposite or digs in (these are her words). She can be "hyper-rational" and always have a clear reason why to not do something.

Never heard the term "Hyper-rational", but having a clear reason for doing or not doing something sounds like a good thing.

I guess what you are making the case for here^^, is how you are NOT controlling, correct?


She complained about not having adult friends and conversation besides myself through the years. I encouraged her to get a part-time job or find a club to join (she said it wasn't practical because of childcare issues). She wanted to go to school for years. I encouraged her. She said no. No money to do it, and wouldn't take out a loan and didn't think her Dad would help (come to find he would have).


So she feels STUCK in a big way. Does she blame you for it?

Why are you bringing up all this history?

If you go to MC and do this, it'll get you nowhere fast. That's why a lot of mc's are unhelpful. We rehash the past and then get mad all over again.

Div Busting is solution based, which simply means we want to know how to help matters NOW, not so much about how we got here.

The history or "how we got here" ONLY helps if you are going to stop the pattern you see. Which you could also do by simply working on it, now.

The risk you take when you go over your marital history is that 1) one or both of you will get mad again and NOT be interested in repairing things;
AND OR 2) there will be a ton of BLAME to go around, which makes both feel defensive and solutions harder to see

AND OR 3) you discover the history is NOT seen the same way and that bothers you a lot, so much so that one or both of you wants the other to see it their way and begins to discuss/argue about the past.

Just remember the main thing - that you agree on your future...not so much the past.




If I had an issue with something in our M. I'd bring it up. She doesn't. I would have to pry things out of her when I could tell there was something wrong ( I eventually told her long ago that I couldn't keep guessing and that she'd have to let me know when something was bothering her because otherwise I couldn't address it).
As far as depression goes:
I'm not sure. It seems like she has always been like this. Her: "I don't know" or "I don't care" when people ask her things about what she wants seem to be just how she is rather than being something related to depression.


Why did you marry her? (Yes I'm seriously asking you). Also, what does she feel passion for or about? What is really important to HER? How do you know that?

However, in the last 5 years she lost her Mother and her best friend. She lost her social outlet doing martial arts with me last fall after her injury. Her only social outlet is her online gaming friends (she plays 3-5 hours a night minimum). So is she depressed in light of that? Maybe. She has said she is lonely. I know that is in reference to me, but it could be exacerbated that she has very little social life. I don't know.


2 significant deaths/losses, losing a social outlet, acting stuck, AND outright telling you that she's lonely - are all pretty classic factors in depression. Plus she has a physical injury that is morphing into a painful disability...

What strikes me now, is how you resist admitting it. But yes, it's my opinion that she IS depressed. That doesn't fix anything, but it sure seems clear to me that it's a factor here.

I don't write all this to blame her or abdicate responsibility for my own problems. Just to give an additional picture of our R. I think at times that maybe I have taken on too much and has made some unhealthy co-dependency in our R. And that I need to stop taking care of her so much. Perhaps she resents it? I don't know.

Perhaps doing the things you list, (and you do LIST them) undermines her self esteem or seems like a tactic of yours to guilt or shame her, (not saying it is)
and maybe she senses that and resents it OR maybe it makes her feel lousy about herself or her life...

All I can say at this point, is that your wife needs help. Is she getting some counseling AND is she doing anything to help her shoulder? Supporting her in those efforts might be the best thing you can do for her AND for the m.

What do you think?

[claire7]

It would show a lot of strength and compassion and integrity to help your wife get help, which she will have a very hard time doing on her own-- one of the effects of depression is feeling stuck. I know this first hand. I needed help desperately and getting it seemed impossible. She will need help to get help. Find a therapist, offer child care solutions, etc etc. It is scary to begin therapy.

My H blamed me for not addressing my mental health issues. He kept urging me to see a counselor, but didn't actually help me overcome the obstacles I felt in getting it (finding a good counselor, paying for it, child care issues).

I wish someone had advised him not to resent me for being ill and instructed him to be more proactive in getting me help. That would have been a very loving, strong thing for him to do.