One thing that drives me bonkers (yeah, so maybe this is about ME more than it is about YOU, Razr) is the impatience of people who are sitting relatively pretty in their positions around here.
Dude, chill. Take a deep breath. And count your blessings.
Marathon. Not a sprint.
Marathon. Not a sprint.
Marathon. Not s sprint.
Memorize that. Make it your mantra.
A "beta" male would say, "Hey, Honey, Darling, Lover. Go do what you need to do! I understand! I've been a terrible H. Go get what you need from OM, and I'll be here, waiting for you if/when you change your mind and want me ... or even while you're making up your mind IF you want me! Need a backrub? Wanna snuggle after you've been with OM? That's what I'm here for!"
An "alpha" male might tell his W to take a hike while he goes out looking for a piece of, well, you know, himself ...
A strong, noble, loving, honorable man doesn't classify himself as either "alpha" or "beta" ... because he's BOTH.
Allow her time to process and figure things out. Listen to her when she's respectfully sharing her feelings. Validate those feelings when warranted. But if she's speaking nonsense? Ignore it. Or outright tell her you won't listen to nonsense. If she criticizes you for something, and it STINGS you to hear it, take note of what she said ... take it to heart. And work to change it.
Meanwhile, don't.be.a.doormat. Don't be her whipping post. That's the worst choice a man could make. It is soooooooo weak and unattractive, even - in fact, ESPECIALLY - for a woman who is trying to tear you down (to lift herself up). Continue to GAL. MAKE fun for yourself. Demand that of - and FOR - yourself.
I know it's easier on "this" side for me to offer that advice. But all I can say is if I knew then what I know now (while my H is sleeping soundly beside me on the couch), I would have made even MORE sure I was taking care of me ... and caring EVEN LESS about the final-outcome of my M. I would realize, even more than I did then, that I have little-to-no control over my then-WAH. I would realize that *I* am the cake. And he is the frosting. Cake is better with frosting. But cake, alone, is pretty freaking awesome.
Serve papers schmerve schmapers. You're not ready to do that. Don't be silly. Don't be REACTIVE. Take the "C" out of that word, and put it at the front of the word. All a sudden, you have "CREATIVE."
Being reactive only digs your hole deeper.
Don't try to control your W. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Simmer down, buddy. Simmmmmmmmer down.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
Train, this is why I post on here now before I make any decisions. Thank you. I couldn't sleep and was up at 1:30am. Some decent sleep, some coffee, and the cold light of day (and your reply) made all the difference.
I know it's a marathon. And I know we are months away from either one of us making any decisions about our M, and I know that she's engaged in MC. If she's lying about giving us a few months, then nothing will happen until January at the earliest, because she doesn't want to ruin Christmas for our Ds.
I feel like in general I'm doing good at detaching, but it could always be better. Need to beef up the GAL a bit, but I'm doing a good job at pulling back from her while keeping things light and friendly. She's noticed the changes, she's told me. If there's any affection, she reaches out to me now. A spontaneous stroke of my beard last night; during which I joked about petting a cat backwards. She gives me a quick kiss when she leaves for work (she leaves before me in the morning), a quick kiss and an ILY when we lay down at night. (Which she initiates). I know that she's not physically seeing the OM, since he lives so far away, so I don't worry about that.
I've heard and recounted in this thread her stated reasons for why she doesn't trust me and is no longer attracted to me. They're not out of left field. The bottom line though is that she's 43 and feels her sexual value slipping away (she's still very attractive). She wants to trade up to a "better" mate while she can still get one. It's as cold as that. She may not even consciously think of it that way, but that's what this is really about. She "knows" intellectually that this particular OM is not really available to her, but intellectualism is not her strong suit, especially right now. I just know that not drawing a harder line on this will erode whatever respect she still has for me. Left unaddressed there will be another OM somewhere down the line, and that one won't live 800 miles away.
But that cuts both ways. I've been gaining my alpha back for the last few months, physically and emotionally. As she feels her sexual value slipping away, I feel mine returning. I know I can go out and find a better mate than what I have right now. When I think about that, it makes me want to go ahead and draw a hard line. If she gets mad and wants to D, so be it. She'll be giving up someone awesome if she leaves, but she hasn't realized that yet. I'm at the point now where I'm no longer afraid to lose her, even though it's not what I want. That said, I know I'm still trying to control the outcome too much
But ultimately, I want us to rediscover each other. And I do know for that to happen, I need to give her time to handle OM her way.
Last edited by Rzrback; 11/27/1402:58 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Train gives you some really good advice. As one of those who is in a relatively good position compared to many here: I get your impatience. I really do. I want to fix and have it fixed now, but I can't. Reading Train's advice to you reminds me of that as well. Don't worry about Alpha and Beta labels. Just worry about being a good man. That does not mean you need to listen to her talk or support her in anyway about the OM. Draw your boundaries there and stick up for yourself. It is going to be a long journey (something that I am trying to come to terms with myself) . So work on yourself. Be someone you want to be. Hope you have a good Turkey day.
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
Basically when she mentions OM, my stock answer is, "you'll figure things out". I'm not dismissing her, but I'm not going to be drawn into a discussion about him. I've stopped mentioning him myself, which is something I have a very hard time doing. Wonka pointed out something which hit home with me; My W and I get along fabulously until I allow myself to get worked up about OM and then things go downhill.
Still working on myself. I know you are too.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Yeah here you Rzr. But I think you'll need a stronger stock response when your W mentions OM to you. Don't let her treat you like a friend. She must know you decided that she cannot disrespect you by seeing or talking about OM. You are standing up for your family... That's how you support her. Show her. There is a great post from sandi near the end if my thread about the level if support you should give her now.
Me: 44 W: 45 S: 11 Married: 15 Together: 18 BD: 9/29/2014 OM discovered: 10/16/2014 I left her behind: 12/14/2014
Rzr ... yeah .. Train is spot on. As bad as your sitch is ... you still get the ILY??!!! Dude ... like she said .. chill.
Thing is, Keep your focus on YOU. work the Trifecta PMA, 180, Detach. She is currently chasing OM in that fog she has found herself in.... you need to flip that around and get that fish to chase a different lure. Pointing that lure out, talking about that other lure ... well .. you get where I am going here. It does nothing but keep her mind on that lure. There will come a time you can share how much hurt you are in, as a man ... a man that your W would want .. you have to swallow that one for now. I was where you are... well maybe worse. my W left .. still gone.. I found this place late, but think I would have still made the same mistakes before the light went on a little dimly.
The past month I discovered something .. maybe it will help you here. This Alpha Beta thing .. its similar. For me to get a grip, I basically realized I have two personalities ... in a way created them to deal. I have the hurt little boy, and I have the man I want to be, the one I am working on, one who was lost with I recieved the BD. This man is Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, whoever you want. So ... before I react I ask myself .. who is reacting here... that hurt snotty little boy, or Clint, I allow them to react and respond internally, but I only allow Clint to speak for me. Is this crazy, am I crazy .. you damn right it is and I am ... but I can not tell you the change that happened when I embraced this, the peace I have achieved.
You can not do a thing about what your W is doing with OM, you can however create a better lure ... do that ... GAL 180 Detach .. allow your hurt little boy to speak, here, in your head .. but only for a time when you know John Wayne would tell him to STFU. Then .. let it go, and walk tall.
Thing is, Keep your focus on YOU. work the Trifecta PMA, 180, Detach. She is currently chasing OM in that fog she has found herself in.... you need to flip that around and get that fish to chase a different lure. Pointing that lure out, talking about that other lure ... well .. you get where I am going here. It does nothing but keep her mind on that lure. There will come a time you can share how much hurt you are in, as a man ... a man that your W would want .. you have to swallow that one for now. I was where you are... well maybe worse. my W left .. still gone.. I found this place late, but think I would have still made the same mistakes before the light went on a little dimly.
The past month I discovered something .. maybe it will help you here. This Alpha Beta thing .. its similar. For me to get a grip, I basically realized I have two personalities ... in a way created them to deal. I have the hurt little boy, and I have the man I want to be, the one I am working on, one who was lost with I recieved the BD. This man is Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, whoever you want. So ... before I react I ask myself .. who is reacting here... that hurt snotty little boy, or Clint, I allow them to react and respond internally, but I only allow Clint to speak for me. Is this crazy, am I crazy .. you damn right it is and I am ... but I can not tell you the change that happened when I embraced this, the peace I have achieved.
You can not do a thing about what your W is doing with OM, you can however create a better lure ... do that ... GAL 180 Detach .. allow your hurt little boy to speak, here, in your head .. but only for a time when you know John Wayne would tell him to STFU. Then .. let it go, and walk tall.
Yeah, I still get ILY, and some occasional spontaneous touch from her, so I guess I'm better off than a lot of folks.
Thanks CaliGuy. I let sleep deprivation and despair get the better of me last night. That's why I post on here before I say anything to my W. As long as she keeps the talk away from OM I'll be upbeat and friendly with her (but not initiate affection or ILY). I just need to get better at telling her to go call her girlfriend if she wants to talk about OM. She will s**t test me, but she always has, from the beginning of our marriage. It's about time to start passing some of those again.
Interesting that you mentioned Clint Eastwood. I may need to go re-watch "Heartbreak Ridge" to renew some purpose :-)
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Thing is, Keep your focus on YOU. work the Trifecta PMA, 180, Detach. She is currently chasing OM in that fog she has found herself in.... you need to flip that around and get that fish to chase a different lure. Pointing that lure out, talking about that other lure ... well .. you get where I am going here. It does nothing but keep her mind on that lure. There will come a time you can share how much hurt you are in, as a man ... a man that your W would want .. you have to swallow that one for now. I was where you are... well maybe worse. my W left .. still gone.. I found this place late, but think I would have still made the same mistakes before the light went on a little dimly.
The past month I discovered something .. maybe it will help you here. This Alpha Beta thing .. its similar. For me to get a grip, I basically realized I have two personalities ... in a way created them to deal. I have the hurt little boy, and I have the man I want to be, the one I am working on, one who was lost with I recieved the BD. This man is Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, whoever you want. So ... before I react I ask myself .. who is reacting here... that hurt snotty little boy, or Clint, I allow them to react and respond internally, but I only allow Clint to speak for me. Is this crazy, am I crazy .. you damn right it is and I am ... but I can not tell you the change that happened when I embraced this, the peace I have achieved.
You can not do a thing about what your W is doing with OM, you can however create a better lure ... do that ... GAL 180 Detach .. allow your hurt little boy to speak, here, in your head .. but only for a time when you know John Wayne would tell him to STFU. Then .. let it go, and walk tall.
Yeah, I still get ILY, and some occasional spontaneous touch from her, so I guess I'm better off than a lot of folks.
Thanks CaliGuy. I let sleep deprivation and despair get the better of me last night. That's why I post on here before I say anything to my W. As long as she keeps the talk away from OM I'll be upbeat and friendly with her (but not initiate affection or ILY). I just need to get better at telling her to go call her girlfriend if she wants to talk about OM. She will s**t test me, but she always has, from the beginning of our marriage. It's about time to start passing some of those again.
Interesting that you mentioned Clint Eastwood. I may need to go re-watch "Heartbreak Ridge" to renew some purpose :-)
You are doing well ... and yeah ...MUCH better to go off in here and vent than it ever is to do that towards your W.
Ohhhh good call on HB-Ridge .. I may have to watch that one with S !!
I am in a better situation than many, but I don't get ILY or any physical contact unless I put my hand on her shoulder. One could see that as a good thing.. And they are right in that being more firm about not wanting to hear about the OM is good (don't have to be rude or yelling, just firm and clear).
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
Yeah, in some ways it would be easier to detach if we were physically separated or if she were more cold with me. I let my guard down too easily. I've been way too beta with her for way too long, even before BD.
I keep having to remind myself that it is my consistent behavior that can turn things around, and it'll be little by little. She won't wake up one day with and just jump into my arms.
Last edited by Rzrback; 11/27/1408:02 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Heading out to Tgiving with my family. W's family tomorrow. Everyone have a safe and happy Thanksgiving. I'll be back on the boards this evening I'm sure.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Rzr I am mulling and observing your thread. I am not entirely sure who is more involved with OM, you or W?
this dominates your posts!
As a newbie (vets please interrupt), then from my perspective unless you see rzr and W as two separate individuals, then any actions taken won't work. All of the manly man stuff won't stick because you are merely inflicting this on yourself.
My vision of rzr and W is one of Siamese Twins joined at the groin, running around in endless circles head butting each other, trying to gain an advantage.
Separate
Vanilla
Last edited by Vanilla; 11/28/1401:13 AM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Had Thanksgving with my family tonight. Went OK. I had a batch of cousins in town that my W and I both really enjoy seeing. My parents are really the only members of my family that W doesn't like. They were pretty much on their best behavior tonight. I was able to get us packed up and out of there by the time W and I agreed on. One of those leadership things she and I have been discussing. W was warm to me...it almost felt "normal".
Thanksgving with her family tomorrow, but that's pretty low pressure.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Absolutely. OM is a symptom not a cause,. This particular brand of moral bankrupt is distracting you from dealing with you.
I counted the number of times he was mentioned against a couple of other threads, try this yourself. What we think about gets bigger and this is occupying your time and mind and growing bigger and bigger.
Concentrate on you instead and detaching from W. Where are your discussions about your children, what GAL do you do with them? There two precious daughters who need a loving detached dad.
What are your current goals , are you moving forward?
There are very important ,matters to think about including boundary setting and discovering if you are codependent.
Pause, clear your mind and reflect in a calm way on your priority. Peace of mind will begin Be at ease
Vanilla
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Hmmm it appears as if someone from the MB site has been lurking in the shadows here reading my situation and rather than ask about it here mrwondering's gone back to MB to attack me there.
Some people just don't have anything better to do with their lives.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
Absolutely. OM is a symptom not a cause,. This particular brand of moral bankrupt is distracting you from dealing with you.
I counted the number of times he was mentioned against a couple of other threads, try this yourself. What we think about gets bigger and this is occupying your time and mind and growing bigger and bigger.
Concentrate on you instead and detaching from W. Where are your discussions about your children, what GAL do you do with them? There two precious daughters who need a loving detached dad.
What are your current goals , are you moving forward?
There are very important ,matters to think about including boundary setting and discovering if you are codependent.
Pause, clear your mind and reflect in a calm way on your priority. Peace of mind will begin Be at ease
Vanilla
I'm sure I'm overly obsessed with OM. I'm making progress with detaching, but I'm still dealing with the ego hit of knowing that my wife finds another man more desirable than me.
My relationship with my kids is better. I need to do more with them, but even D15, who complains about everything :), has noticed I'm a lot more fun to be around. That has gotten back to my W. Actually doing more with them is something I need to work on.
I have no doubt I'm codependent.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
-Try reading "Co-Dependent No More" by Melody Beattie if you haven't. Might be helpful.
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
She tried to talk about OM again....about how confused she is. I simply said I won't share her and I don't think about OM. She asked me how I could be so calm when she's so nervous. I just said that he was her mess to clean up, not mine. Just keeping things calm and strong. I control my own life and my own actions. My mantra is "I got this". Just projecting to her that I can handle anything life throws at me.
She's nervous...I'm not
She's confused...I'm not.
She's all over the place...I keep things straight and level
Last edited by Rzrback; 11/28/1404:17 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Keep on avoiding talk with W about issues which are her concern to deal with. I love your response last time, it is her mess.
Acceptance that there may be a codependency issue is the first step in beginning to detach. This is BIG crossroad issue, it is very encouraging for you to acknowledge it. Your DB friends are celebrating for you.
Sadly when you live with a compulsive then detachment is absolutely essential. You will see that from my thread.
My understanding is that attachment is about the past, beliefs, and a desire to hold on to dreams which can't or won't work. It can also mean that hanging on to dreams of the future prevent living in the present. This does not mean not have goals, inspiration or aims, instead letting go of the outcome allows relaxation response. Ease and acceptance of the present meaning self control will give the best chance for your M.
Love to know more about your GAL plans for the holidays.
Vanilla
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
She tried to talk about OM again....about how confused she is. I simply said I won't share her and I don't think about OM. She asked me how I could be so calm when she's so nervous. I just said that he was her mess to clean up, not mine. Just keeping things calm and strong. I control my own life and my own actions. My mantra is "I got this". Just projecting to her that I can handle anything life throws at me.
She's nervous...I'm not
She's confused...I'm not.
She's all over the place...I keep things straight and level
Thanks Wonka, she seemed to react well. I was happy with that exchange. I know what I want in life, I have direction and purpose, and while I hope she signs on for my ride, I don't need her to. That's the image I'm projecting to her, and more important, it's my new truth.
She's been warm to me today. Some spontaneous affection, all initiated by her.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I have a few minutes of peace before the day begins...perfect time for some DB journaling.
Thanksgiving went fine. Visiting my family (since my parents are toxic to us) ended up not being a big deal. They were on their best behavior and we had a lot of fun with a group of cousins we both really like. We had a previously agreed-upon time to get out of there and go over to her family. I took the lead on getting us packed up and on our way on time. Family leadership has been a legitimate complaint of hers so I count that as a win. Thanksgiving at her family's was no big deal, but her family has never presented a challenge to us.
We got back home yesterday, watched the Arkansas game (not pretty, but oh well), and worked on some home improvement projects together. I know that's ironic, since this may not be my home this time next year, but I think that doing things like this together will help reestablish our connection.
We had a productive R talk last night. You know, the kind where we respectfully talk about our issues and share feelings. OM got mentioned, but she speaks about him more dispassionately than she used to. She was trying to analyze why he had made her feel the way she did. I can handle that kind of OM talk, it's when she starts gushing like a teenager that I draw the line. She did say that she was attracted to us both. That's the first time since BD that I heard her say that she was attracted to me. I'm probably overanalyzing that one statement, but considering she used to tell me she felt no attraction to me at all, I'll take it. I didn't point out to her what she said. She asked me how I felt about things, since we seem to talk too much about how she feels. I said I was crystal clear on where I wanted us to go, but I was ready for whatever life threw at me. I did tell her that I would not settle for being her plan B, so she needed to either recommit to me for real, or not at all. She said she envied my clarity.
She was warm, initiated spontaneous affection and ILY. During the day, our interactions were almost normal, if it hadn't been for the elephant sleeping in the corner. We were in bed last night before going to sleep, and I caught her staring at me more than once. It felt like she wanted closer contact, but was holding herself back. Again, maybe my imagination/wishful thinking, but I can't help but think that what I'm doing is helping her open up slowly. Maybe the wall has a couple of fewer bricks than it did before. I did break my DBing rules to initiate a kiss and an ILY before going to sleep, but considering how warm she's been to me this weekend, I figured I'd throw her a bone :-)
One poster asked me about my holiday GAL plans. I hadn't really thought about GAL in terms of the holidays. We'll probably still do a lot together, since we're still warm towards each other. We're planning to make the holidays about us and our children. We're making things simpler this year, both for financial reasons, and also to avoid the over scheduling we tend to get roped into this time of year. Given what all has gone on, a simpler Christmas would be best. My standard GAL activities remain in place. Exercise, flying, church, friends, kids.
Sandi2 put out a great post on what detachment really means. That helped me refine my detachment so I can detach from expectations without making her feel like I'm being cold to her. Thanks, Sandi!
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I just started into a codependency book recommended by another poster. I'm not far in, but I'm starting to wonder if she's not as codependent on me as I am on her.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
What part of "NO R TALKS" and "NO ILY/PURSUIT" don't you understand? Or do you understand it and don't have the will to follow it?
You can't possibly hope to have DB work for you if you don't follow its precepts.
You're trying to do "piecing" before you've even completed the "DBing" stage. You've got it backwards, and you're setting yourself up for a crash in my opinion.
As you well know, we cannot always avoid R talks ALL the time. That is not realistic and not healthy either. They will happen and do need to happen at some point. I think Rzr did well there.
Rzr has never STOPPED having them, nor do I believe he has stopped the pursuit. I think his WORDS tell his wayward wife thing ("I won't be your Plan B") while his ACTIONS say otherwise.
Rzr has never STOPPED having them, nor do I believe he has stopped the pursuit. I think his WORDS tell his wayward wife thing ("I won't be your Plan B") while his ACTIONS say otherwise.
OK, I'll cop to my initiated ILY last night as pursuing, but what exactly are my other actions saying? I had an R talk, but she initiated and kept it within bounds IMHO. That was the first R talk in almost a week. Any other affection between us was initiated by her.
We're doing home projects together, but we still have a house to run for the time being, regardless of our marriage sitch.
Last edited by Rzrback; 11/29/1405:43 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
"In almost a week. " You should have no more than one or two of these in 6 mos, in my opinion and experience. DB teaches to monitor results, which should NOT be "is she being nicer to me?" but rather is she making demonstrable moves away from OM and back towards the marriage.
I think you're way too close to "gay boyfriend" territory to successfully re attract her. That's just my opinion.
The thing about "R talks" is they should not be initiated by the LBS. You are to avoid them UNLESS the WAS brings them up. This includes "temperature checks".
When they do bring up the R, your job is to VALIDATE UNTIL YOUR EYEBALLS FALL OUT.
That said, it's easy to do temp checks and justify them, so you have to be super honest and transparent with yourself.
ME: 38 BF: 40 T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice) BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R. 10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW 12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
If a walkaway spouse (no active affair) initiates, I would advise the LBS to listen very carefully for clues as to her feelings, what his contributions to the marital dysfunction were, etc, so long as it doesn't turn into disrespectful bashing. I wouldn't advise tolerating outright deceit or rudeness, but validate otherwise.
If it's waywardness the LBS is facing -- esp a continued, unrepentant affair -- I do think the rules need to be a little different. I usually advise a "I understand that you feel ______; end your affair and come back and work on the marriage with me, and I think you will find that I am ready to work on any and all issues, including my own contributions to our prior marital problems" stance.
I do NOT think it is at ALL emotionally healthy -- especially for a man -- to sit and listen to their wayward wife's conversations about her OM, and to her contrasting her OM relationship with her marriage.
If a walkaway spouse (no active affair) initiates, I would advise the LBS to listen very carefully for clues as to her feelings, what his contributions to the marital dysfunction were, etc, so long as it doesn't turn into disrespectful bashing. I wouldn't advise tolerating outright deceit or rudeness, but validate otherwise.
If it's waywardness the LBS is facing -- esp a continued, unrepentant affair -- I do think the rules need to be a little different. I usually advise a "I understand that you feel ______; end your affair and come back and work on the marriage with me, and I think you will find that I am ready to work on any and all issues, including my own contributions to our prior marital problems" stance.
I do NOT think it is at ALL emotionally healthy -- especially for a man -- to sit and listen to their wayward wife's conversations about her OM, and to her contrasting her OM relationship with her marriage.
Starsky
I do see what you're saying. I never initiate R talks with her. She's the one who's constantly temp-checking. When she was talking about OM last night, she was trying to analyze how she got in this insane (her words) situation. The tone on her part was fairly dispassionate when it comes to him. I hear in her words a thinning of the fog, but probably not enough. I simply try to listen and see what she's saying. Last night's R talk was not all about him, and it stayed aboveboard and respectful, at least in tone.
I had a good start telling her that OM was her mess to clean up, but it's obvious I need to turn the screws a little harder.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Yeah...back off on OM. Your W heard you and knows what your preferences are. She's going have to figure it out one way or another. Meanwhile, continue doing what you've been doing so far. And that Austin trip? When are you going to DO it?
I suggest that the next time W brings up OM, you'd firmly tell her that you will no longer tolerate hearing her talk about him because you are not her gay boyfriend, you are her H, and it is extremely disrespectful to talk about OM. Then w-a-l-k away if she continues to persist in this.
However, stress that you're willing to discuss some ideas and solutions on how to improve your M as a H and W team. Discuss your dreams and aspirations. That would be a good starting point. That can be done in the safety of MC and perhaps continue on outside of those sessions. Doesn't your MC give you homework assignments on how to re-connect?
I know it is. It's like we have the flu, and all I worry about is the fever.
I don't have any problem not talking about OM, I just have problems shutting her down when she wants to. It's like all she ever wants to talk about is the R sometimes, and the OM is part of that.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I do follow along on your thread and you receive great advice. Please do not think I'm being Debbie Downer, although I want to point something out. You have many positives in your sitch and seem to be doing rather well. However, for your own sanity, do NOT put much stock into what they say. My xh talked about is buying furniture, family vacation, etc and we are D'd. Please know I'm not trying to be hurtful. I see many sitches where the WAS talks about the future and things change. That's why detachment is so important.
Focus on you and the now. I know it's difficult not to think "see, they think x now." The WAS will flip on a dime. Hang in there!
Last edited by Georgiabelle; 11/30/1412:49 AM.
3 kids BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. ) Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style D final 9-9-14 "Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
I do follow along on your thread and you receive great advice. Please do not think I'm being Debbie Downer, although I want to point something out. You have many positives in your sitch and seem to be doing rather well. However, for your own sanity, do NOT put much stock into what they say. My xh talked about is buying furniture, family vacation, etc and we are D'd. Please know I'm not trying to be hurtful. I see many sitches where the WAS talks about the future and things change. That's why detachment is so important.
Focus on you and the now. I know it's difficult not to think "see, they think x now." The WAS will flip on a dime. Hang in there!
No worries, GB. The Seaworld comment was not out of left field. Before BD, we were planning on sending D10 to San Antonio for a SeaWorld camp. I didn't take W's statement tonight as a sign of anything other than the absurd fantasy world she's living in. If she eventually wants to D I'll try to be fair and keep things as amicable as possible, but she's smoking crack if she thinks she can divorce me and we'll still take family vacations together. That camp is not cheap. She doesn't realize the financial hit she will take, as she does not have a good alimony case per my attorney.
A few weeks ago she was talking about OM and actually said the following words (this was before I learned not to discuss the OM) "Maybe he and I can just be good friends and we can help each other out with our marriage issues". It was all I could do not to choke when she said that. I think her fog has thinned some since then, but she's still harboring a lot of fantasies.
Bear in mind she is not explicitly talking about S or D right now. She keeps just saying that she feels "lost".
Last edited by Rzrback; 11/30/1401:08 AM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Just curious. I remember you said your wife worked in the hotel industry, I believe. Catering? Has she had many male friends in the past? I realize this has crossed a line, however, I was also wondering if having a make "friend" is new for her. The way you describe her sounds like this almost takes her to a different time if that makes sense. The gushing..
3 kids BD 12/15/13 (IDKIILY. ) Rope dropped Cirque du Soleil style D final 9-9-14 "Some people are born on 3rd base and go through life thinking they hit a triple." Barry Switzer
She's a front desk clerk. Been at the same hotel for 20 years. Part time job, perfect mom hours. She's always had male friends. That in and of itself was not surprising. I've never had reason to mistrust her before.
Her story (for what it's worth): Things in our M have been off for a while for other reasons (that's true). This current male "friend" got her motor running sexually. (I still believe there's been no physical contact) Suddenly she decided our M has been out of sorts for most of the time we've been together, and she started thinking maybe she should start life over w/o me. That idea didn't even necessarily involve OM.
She used to fantasize that they were soulmates and she should move off to Georgia to be with him, if it just wasn't for that pesky wife of his. She doesn't talk that way anymore, but I don't believe that the fantasy isn't somewhere in the back of her mind.
Last edited by Rzrback; 11/30/1401:23 AM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I worked from the hurt little boy again. Damn, why do I keep doing that. We had been getting along so well. I don't know what to do anymore. I allowed myself to get angry and tried to lay down the law when it came to OM. I meant to just say that I'm not willing to discuss OM any more. God, I am such an idiot. I'm sure I set us back.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
We've had a good few days until last night. W was ordering prints for the house and we had been painting a couple of accent walls. At one point she turned to me and asked if I felt weird about doing all this given our situation. I did say that it did feel strange to be doing all this work for a house we might be selling in the future. She didn't know that I would push to sell the house if we D. She doesn't want to do that until the kids go to college, so they can continue living in their home. It was a far down the road detail of D that we had just never discussed. It devolved into a fight really quick. During the fight she looked me straight in the eye and told me she felt no love for me anymore. That's when Clint Eastwood took a coffee break and scared, frightened, lonely little boy came out.
After that had calmed down I tried to tell her again (why do I do this?) that she needed to cut off OM for the health of our relationship. She's still holding on to this fantasy that she can be "friends" with him and still potentially remain married to me. I didn't present it as a "cut him off or I'm leaving" thing, but she took it that way. Of course it devolved into everything else, and she still blames me for how she feels. She looked at me at one point and told me that she "used to love me, and that I had it all and threw it away". She found my perfect button, because that's the one thing that I keep playing in my mind over and over. I reacted to that much more calmly than I felt. Things calmed down, as they always do. I did apologize for losing my temper; that was a legitimate mistake on my part. We ended the evening on relatively friendly speaking terms, but I just feel like I cut myself off at the knees all the time.
It seems like every time I feel like I have this DBing thing down, I screw up. While I've done a good job of remaining friendly, PMA, etc. I'm still too attached to outcomes. I haven't yet learned to let go and stop trying to control things. I stopped working on being a better man regardless of my M outcome. That's what last night was about, me trying to control outcomes again. I ruined several days of good feeling in one fell swoop.
To make it worse, D15 found this forum on my laptop and told W. Specifically she saw my post about W putting OM's pics back on her phone after deleting them. I passed it off as a thread I was simply reading, not one that I was posted to. W may or may not believed me, but I noticed she changed her phone passcode last night.
I just hope I haven't made that one mistake that pushes her away for good.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
The old adage stop thinking about green elephants wearing yellow tutus.
What is the first image in your mind?
You know this so, when W starts triggering the green elephant think about purple sheep.
Trigger......response Pavlov Do a pattern interrupt think about purple sheep, Charlie Chaplin, frozen the movie, your lovely children, the Xmas tree, your favourite steak.
In order to remind yourself you can use a rubber band on your wrist, ping it.
I have a 30 minute alarm on my laptop and I think something positive when I flood with pain. It works most of the time and some days I don't need it and on others every time.
When OM comes into your head do something with the image, make it small, swish it away, or my very favourite trick turn it into a cartoon. It is called reframing and my IC taught it to me when I could not detach from an image of H gambling all our cash. Took me a while to master and I started on small images, i imagined my favourites cake full of maggots to avoid eating it. (Sorry about that!) An IC may help you with this. Regards Vanilla
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
That's something I haven't thought about before, vanilla. that makes sense. Something to break through the hurt I feel at the moment. I'll give that a try the next time I get tested.
I'm really thinking about starting with an IC after the first of the year.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
We've had a good few days until last night. W was ordering prints for the house and we had been painting a couple of accent walls. At one point she turned to me and asked if I felt weird about doing all this given our situation. I did say that it did feel strange to be doing all this work for a house we might be selling in the future. She didn't know that I would push to sell the house if we D. She doesn't want to do that until the kids go to college, so they can continue living in their home. It was a far down the road detail of D that we had just never discussed. It devolved into a fight really quick. During the fight she looked me straight in the eye and told me she felt no love for me anymore. That's when Clint Eastwood took a coffee break and scared, frightened, lonely little boy came out.
After that had calmed down I tried to tell her again (why do I do this?) that she needed to cut off OM for the health of our relationship. She's still holding on to this fantasy that she can be "friends" with him and still potentially remain married to me. I didn't present it as a "cut him off or I'm leaving" thing, but she took it that way. Of course it devolved into everything else, and she still blames me for how she feels. She looked at me at one point and told me that she "used to love me, and that I had it all and threw it away". She found my perfect button, because that's the one thing that I keep playing in my mind over and over. I reacted to that much more calmly than I felt. Things calmed down, as they always do. I did apologize for losing my temper; that was a legitimate mistake on my part. We ended the evening on relatively friendly speaking terms, but I just feel like I cut myself off at the knees all the time.
It seems like every time I feel like I have this DBing thing down, I screw up. While I've done a good job of remaining friendly, PMA, etc. I'm still too attached to outcomes. I haven't yet learned to let go and stop trying to control things. I stopped working on being a better man regardless of my M outcome. That's what last night was about, me trying to control outcomes again. I ruined several days of good feeling in one fell swoop.
To make it worse, D15 found this forum on my laptop and told W. Specifically she saw my post about W putting OM's pics back on her phone after deleting them. I passed it off as a thread I was simply reading, not one that I was posted to. W may or may not believed me, but I noticed she changed her phone passcode last night.
I just hope I haven't made that one mistake that pushes her away for good.
On one hand, she's telling you she doesn't love you. On the other hand, she's telling you that she wants to remain friends with the OM and also still married to you. Do you see where her conflicting emotions are? She probably has no idea what's going on in her head.
Create a script. Learn it. Memorize it. It should go something like this: "I admit to my part in our troubles, and I'd do a lot differently if I could. I'm willing to work on our marriage and rebuild to a place of loving trust again, if you are. We can't do that when you have any contact with the OM; it's disrespectful to our marriage. The choice is yours on this."
Then maybe also work in "It's your call, but I don't want to divorce; I want to fix our marriage." as appropriate when D talk comes up, too.
Every time she tries to goad you into an argument like the one above, repeat the lines above.
There's no need to get into anything else at this juncture; the D will only happen if she files (classic DB advice -- if they want the D, let them do the work) and it doesn't sound like she's in a place she wants to do that.
Your job is to state the facts (wording is so important) and then carry on with your life AS THOUGH she's welcome to come along, but you're not holding up your healthy existence for her.
ME: 38 BF: 40 T: 10y, no kids, no M (by choice) BD: 7/14/14, BF admits to PA, wants out, lies about new R. 10/1/14: I move out, BF lies about move in with OW 12/4/14: OW confronted, reveals all the lies
You can snap it really hard! I've used that a few times. I had some red welts on my wrist. But I sure felt better in the noggin!
And while I agree with Little's advice above about the "script", it's best said once, maybe twice. You don't need to keep repeating yourself or it weakens your position.
All she will hear is "Blah..blah...blah..." (He's saying the same old thing.)
But scripts are great.
Here's one: "I have not yet decided what I want to do about -----. When I do, I"ll let you know." "I am not willing to talk about this under the current circumstances." (She knows what those circumstances are.)
Show her with your ACTIONS. Get busy doing other things. Stop making her the focus of your thoughts and plans. Take your time responding to her, as long as you need to make your point short and sweet. The more words involved, the more you run into the possibility of the convo getting away from you.
Clint Eastwood's character is a man of few words. His actions speak for him. Be THAT guy! -----------------------------------------------
But here's one for you:
Why indeed ARE you ordering prints and painting accents walls with your wife in a house you might be selling after divorce?
Whose idea was this and why is this important right now?
Like many of the WAW on this board, she seems to have an idea of what she wants (the kids to stay in the house) and that if you do not make those wishes come true, you are the bad guy.
Also, why are you working on this project with her when you're supposed to be detaching and GALing and not feeding into this fantasy world of hers?
Think about those and get back to me. -------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, as we say there is no magic bullet to fix your marriage, neither is there a magic bullet that blows all chances for R if you screw up.
We ALL screw up, big time. I have done so many times.
Things are going to happen. So she knows about this board. She changed her password on the phone. So it goes. Now you can't snoop the phone AND you know that she wants to hide certain things from you. (Been there, done that.)
IF I were you, and clearly I'm not, I would make myself scarce around her. If you can't control your emotions/actions (almost impossible at this point for the mere mortals among us) then don't be around her!
Sometimes some separation is a good thing to get away from all the insanity.
Can you take a trip or something? Go to a cabin in the woods with some fishing buddies? Go sight-seeing in NYC? Whatever floats your boat.
You've got to put some emotional distance in here for your well-being. Sometimes that requires a physical distancing for a time for you to get your head straight and get stronger.
One thing you can do while under the same roof is enforce your "No OM" boundaries by only dealing with her about necessary day-to-day operations. Period.
You can be friendly and kind about it, but you won't be helping her paint the house she doesn't want you living in. (Do I have that right?)
It's in the books... Make yourself scarce. Be too busy for her.
You are going to make things worse by continuing to engage and hang on her every word.
You've got to work on this. You have the info, now--as Vanilla said--there is no "TRY". Just DO it.
If you need to walk away--go to the bathroom, whatever, to get a break, do it. Just say: "I am not willing to discuss this with you now." And WALK AWAY.
Be strong. You can do it.
---(G)GGG
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
On one hand, she's telling you she doesn't love you. On the other hand, she's telling you that she wants to remain friends with the OM and also still married to you. Do you see where her conflicting emotions are? She probably has no idea what's going on in her head.
Create a script. Learn it. Memorize it. It should go something like this: "I admit to my part in our troubles, and I'd do a lot differently if I could. I'm willing to work on our marriage and rebuild to a place of loving trust again, if you are. We can't do that when you have any contact with the OM; it's disrespectful to our marriage. The choice is yours on this."
Then maybe also work in "It's your call, but I don't want to divorce; I want to fix our marriage." as appropriate when D talk comes up, too.
There's no need to get into anything else at this juncture; the D will only happen if she files (classic DB advice -- if they want the D, let them do the work) and it doesn't sound like she's in a place she wants to do that.
Your job is to state the facts (wording is so important) and then carry on with your life AS THOUGH she's welcome to come along, but you're not holding up your healthy existence for her.
That's actually how I presented it. She saw it as a "him or me" ultimatum. But that's her problem, if she chooses to see things that way. It's not my intent.
Oh, I know she's deeply conflicted. She was telling me how she didn't love me, and an hour later she was suggesting things I could do to make the patio entertainment-friendly next summer. I know better than to hang on things like that, but the conflict is self-evident.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Here's one: "I have not yet decided what I want to do about -----. When I do, I"ll let you know." "I am not willing to talk about this under the current circumstances." (She knows what those circumstances are.)
Show her with your ACTIONS. Get busy doing other things. Stop making her the focus of your thoughts and plans. Take your time responding to her, as long as you need to make your point short and sweet. The more words involved, the more you run into the possibility of the convo getting away from you.
Clint Eastwood's character is a man of few words. His actions speak for him. Be THAT guy! -----------------------------------------------
Amen to that. Talking about what to do with the house is one of those cross-that-bridge-when-we-come-to-it things. When she asked me that question, I was reminded that this may NOT be my home in the next year or so. It went all over me.
Quote:
But here's one for you:
Why indeed ARE you ordering prints and painting accents walls with your wife in a house you might be selling after divorce?
Whose idea was this and why is this important right now?
Like many of the WAW on this board, she seems to have an idea of what she wants (the kids to stay in the house) and that if you do not make those wishes come true, you are the bad guy.
Also, why are you working on this project with her when you're supposed to be detaching and GALing and not feeding into this fantasy world of hers?
Think about those and get back to me. -------------------------------------------------------------------
The house is one of those areas I'm struggling with. I'm OK with the children finishing out their public school years in their house with W. I know the advice is to NOT move out if you don't want to D, but per my attorney, whoever moves out first doesn't have any bearing on things like custody in my state. My W is a great mom, so right now I don't have any concerns in that area. To be honest, by the time she finally does decide she wants to D, I may be just as ready for it as she is.
That is still step 85, and we're on step...6.
My thought was that engaging with her on things that were not specifically R-related (being with the kids, home improvement projects), would help us reconnect. I think Starsky pointed out that I'm trying to piece too early.
Quote:
Now, as we say there is no magic bullet to fix your marriage, neither is there a magic bullet that blows all chances for R if you screw up.
We ALL screw up, big time. I have done so many times.
Things are going to happen. So she knows about this board. She changed her password on the phone. So it goes. Now you can't snoop the phone AND you know that she wants to hide certain things from you. (Been there, done that.)
It's probably a good thing that I can't snoop anymore. The temptation has been too great. She wasn't angry about me being on DB boards, she was supportive of me finding people to talk to. I just don't need to keep looking over her shoulder. That does neither of us any good. --------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Your W knows how to play you like a fiddle, pluck on your heartstrings and play on your emotions.
You need to find a way to be something more formidable--a big old upright bass, for example, that throws her off.
Something Clint Eastwood might play.
Damn straight. She knows my buttons very well. And she hit a big one last night. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
IF I were you, and clearly I'm not, I would make myself scarce around her. If you can't control your emotions/actions (almost impossible at this point for the mere mortals among us) then don't be around her!
Sometimes some separation is a good thing to get away from all the insanity.
Can you take a trip or something? Go to a cabin in the woods with some fishing buddies? Go sight-seeing in NYC? Whatever floats your boat.
You've got to put some emotional distance in here for your well-being. Sometimes that requires a physical distancing for a time for you to get your head straight and get stronger.
One thing you can do while under the same roof is enforce your "No OM" boundaries by only dealing with her about necessary day-to-day operations. Period.
You can be friendly and kind about it, but you won't be helping her paint the house she doesn't want you living in. (Do I have that right?)
It's in the books... Make yourself scarce. Be too busy for her.
You are going to make things worse by continuing to engage and hang on her every word.
You've got to work on this. You have the info, now--as Vanilla said--there is no "TRY". Just DO it.
If you need to walk away--go to the bathroom, whatever, to get a break, do it. Just say: "I am not willing to discuss this with you now." And WALK AWAY.
Be strong. You can do it.
---(G)GGG
A trip is a little much right now due to work schedules, but I can certainly get busier than I have been.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
If you presented that script and she thought "It's him or me", isn't that pretty much what you stated?
Sounds like she got it just right. You're not going to be her H/BFF if she's with OM, right?
Sure, she's conflicted. They all are. On some level they know what they're doing is wrong, but they want to do it anyway, so they provide themselves with "reasons" why it's the right thing to do. Most notably is our massive failing as their spouses!
Of course, it's got to be that you drove her to this.
Because if you didn't, it means she is just a horrible person dragging her husband through the mud in pursuit of her own desires. Can't have that---so you've got to be the bad guy.
How does someone who thinks of themselves as a good person do horrible things to other people?
They convince themselves that person is their enemy, that they deserved it, that they were the catalyst, and drove the WAS to this course of action because they had no other choice.
Make sense?
Don't read anything into what she SAYS, remember? She's going to say and do things in complete opposition. They all do. You cling to hope with some of it, and fall into despair at the rest.
That's why they say not to believe anything she says, and only half of what you see her do.
The only thing to give you an indication of how things are going is to observe her consistent behavior over time, what the trends are.
After all, that's how she is going to measure YOUR progress as well.
Some of us on here have started logs where we track how we're doing, and the responses (observable, objective) from our spouses.
Like: Your goals for today are: Eat well, get exercise, do something social. Note how many times you end up spinning emotionally, that sort of thing. Over time, you'll see it gets better.
As for your W, you can track things like: She called just to say hi. She brought me dinner. She was out all night.
(Without the mind reading part. )
You can then decipher what your "trigger" situations are and plan how to handle those. You can see your progress, and you WILL progress at this.
My triggers were: Anytime I drank alcohol If I was really tired or hungry If I was upset about something else If H was texting on his phone, on his computer Grocery shopping for one Snooping Anything to do with OW....
I learned how to handle these situations better over time and now I'm about 90% under control around H, and 60% under control when I'm alone. That's a real improvement!
You can do it.
Oh, and if YOU don't want to move out of the house, then DON'T DO IT. You don't need to help her get rid of you! And we advocate not doing so because: A. it's not your choice to break up, and B. she should feel the sting of her choices, not just have you conveniently remove yourself from her reality as she wants. (My H wanted the same thing. Tough noogies. I'm still here!)
-Try reading "Co-Dependent No More" by Melody Beattie if you haven't. Might be helpful.
Thanks Okabe. I'm only 90 pages in and it's scary how much that book has spoken to me.
I did the checklist about 40 pages in. There's 230 items on the checklist, and probably 75% applied to me at least somewhat. I see that I'm classically codependent on her and have been for much of our marriage. It looks that she's more than a little codependent on me. I'm wondering if some of her current behavior is a reaction to that. I see a lot of my toxic parents described here too, especially my mother.
I should have read this book before DR, in my opinion
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
If you presented that script and she thought "It's him or me", isn't that pretty much what you stated?
Sounds like she got it just right. You're not going to be her H/BFF if she's with OM, right?
I guess it ultimately is a "him or me" thing, I was trying to present it as, "if he's around it will make our getting our relationship pieced together that much harder", instead of a simplistic "kick him to the curb or I'm leaving."
Quote:
Sure, she's conflicted. They all are. On some level they know what they're doing is wrong, but they want to do it anyway, so they provide themselves with "reasons" why it's the right thing to do. Most notably is our massive failing as their spouses!
Of course, it's got to be that you drove her to this.
Because if you didn't, it means she is just a horrible person dragging her husband through the mud in pursuit of her own desires. Can't have that---so you've got to be the bad guy.
How does someone who thinks of themselves as a good person do horrible things to other people?
They convince themselves that person is their enemy, that they deserved it, that they were the catalyst, and drove the WAS to this course of action because they had no other choice.
Make sense?
Are you SURE you're not the fly on the wall in our living room? That's her basic script. She feels bad about what she's doing and she talks vaguely about her contributions to the state of our M, but if I had been the better husband she deserved, she wouldn't have been vulnerable to OM.
Quote:
Don't read anything into what she SAYS, remember? She's going to say and do things in complete opposition. They all do. You cling to hope with some of it, and fall into despair at the rest.
That's why they say not to believe anything she says, and only half of what you see her do.
The only thing to give you an indication of how things are going is to observe her consistent behavior over time, what the trends are.
After all, that's how she is going to measure YOUR progress as well.
Some of us on here have started logs where we track how we're doing, and the responses (observable, objective) from our spouses.
Like: Your goals for today are: Eat well, get exercise, do something social. Note how many times you end up spinning emotionally, that sort of thing. Over time, you'll see it gets better.
As for your W, you can track things like: She called just to say hi. She brought me dinner. She was out all night.
(Without the mind reading part. )
A log's a good idea. I have a vague notion of trends, but I didn't think about being so systematic with it. I intellectually know not to believe what they say, but when she's looking me in the eye and telling how much I screwed HER up, it's hard to remember in the moment. Getting better, but that's a hump for me.
Quote:
You can then decipher what your "trigger" situations are and plan how to handle those. You can see your progress, and you WILL progress at this.
My triggers were: Anytime I drank alcohol If I was really tired or hungry If I was upset about something else If H was texting on his phone, on his computer Grocery shopping for one Snooping Anything to do with OW....
I learned how to handle these situations better over time and now I'm about 90% under control around H, and 60% under control when I'm alone. That's a real improvement!
You can do it.
Thanks, this is helpful. I can already pick a few of my triggers
Fatigue, sleepiness (last night's blowup happened about 11 PM)
W texting. I can tell by the look on her face when it's with OM.
Snooping. The conversations that I have read have all been pretty PG-rated. But I feel bad about me that I do it and that translates into anger at her. I also don't need to give her another reason to mistrust me.
-(G)GGG [/quote]
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
She feels bad about what she's doing and she talks vaguely about her contributions to the state of our M, but if I had been the better husband she deserved, she wouldn't have been vulnerable to OM.
That is whack logic! What I am hearing is that she's trying to absolve herself of responsibility by pinning the blame for OM on your shoulders. I hope you called her out on this.
She feels bad about what she's doing and she talks vaguely about her contributions to the state of our M, but if I had been the better husband she deserved, she wouldn't have been vulnerable to OM.
That is whack logic! What I am hearing is that she's trying to absolve herself of responsibility by pinning the blame for OM on your shoulders. I hope you called her out on this.
Oh you bet I did. I pointed out that yes I made mistakes with her that I regret but ultimately she's the one who wants to run from the M and get herself entangled with OM. She was actually at a loss for words after that so I knew I struck home.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Assuming you're showing your W positive change in yourself and putting in the hard work to the point she can actually see and believe it, there will come a time that the OM must go. I don't mean just not talking about the OM or OM and her are just friends helping each other. That is all BS and will never work if you two stand a chance at saving this M. It took me awhile to build up the courage to make that stand. I knew when I could no longer live a lie. My sitch was a little different than yours, but the OM factor is still the same. At work and don't really have time to go into detail. Hang in there, we all know how hard this is.
separated since 9/01/13 M-31 W-36 D-4 Move back home 12/26/13 3 months of tough times Finally in a happy M
I don't believe for a second that the OM and our marriage are compatible. I know that now is not the time to push for that. She knows where I and our C stand on him. I'm going to need to build a positive track record with her first before I can push harder for NC. I have the advantage of time and distance since they can't just see each other at the drop of a hat. I'm giving her space and time to work this out right now.
Last edited by Rzrback; 11/30/1410:09 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Since Vanilla is going to ride me like Zorro until I stop talking about OM and start talking about GAL, here's what I've done so far today. I'm working on making my posts more about Rzr and less about W or OM.
Worked this morning. Not my idea of fun, but had a project to finish. Since I'll be out part of Monday for MC, this takes some stress off.
D10 was hassling W about decorating the Christmas tree. W was tired after we finished painting the bedroom wall. After I got back from running (4 miles at 8:20/mile, not too shabby), I grabbed D10 and we strung the lights on the tree ourselves.
I'm going to sneak off to a coffee shop later this afternoon to work on a project. Namely, finishing Codependent No More.
Working on scheduling a night cross-country flight with one of my students, if the weather will ever cooperate.
Really going to hit some of my work projects hard this week. I'm shooting for a promotion by March 2015. That is, if one of my multiple job applications I have in with another company doesn't pan out by then.
I'm taking D10 and D15 for sushi next weekend.
I don't have any specific GAL plans yet for the holidays that are just me and the girls, but I'll be coming up with more, soon.
Is this better Vanilla? :-)
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
The OM is Voldemort? That is disturbing. A perspective that sandi2 gave me (while more unique to my sitch perhaps) is this: She no longer sees you as her H, lover, boyfriend, etc. If you detach, GAL, and work on yourself maybe she'll see you that way again. And while your sitch is different than mine, it (while harsh and something I didn't like hearing) helped me to think about me detaching in a new way. It forces me to try to see her differently (think beginner's mind) and not stay in the clinging mode. Maybe that perspective will help you in thinking about detaching and GAL as well. It is not easy I know. Best of luck.
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
It does feel like she's under the control of some sorcery :-)
I have gained a much broader perspective on my life and on my M in the last couple of months. I find problems are a lot easier to handle when I look down on them from the air rather than facing them at ground level (or from a hole).
My reading on codependency has really resonated with me. I realize now how codependent we both are on each other. I've lost a lot of fear of not only losing her, but life challenges in general, in the last few months. That can only be a good development, regardless of how my M turns out.
Last edited by Rzrback; 12/01/1402:00 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Been so busy today, hardly had time to look at DB. Time for a little journaling.
MC session today. W seems to be enjoying the sessions, felt good afterwards. She talked a lot about my changes and she notices how much closer she feels to me right now. Still says she's afraid she won't regain her sexual attraction. C told her that sexual attraction often comes back after the emotional connection gets reestablished. She's still afraid to recommit fully and then have me slide back into old habit patterns. That's not an unreasonable concern. C said that it would take about 3 - 6 months before W could reliably know if my new approach to life is permanent. No mention of OM by me, her or the C during the session.
MC homework for the week is to go out on a date. I'm making an exception to the 37 rules for this one, since the C recommended it. I'm going to give W her choice of evenings, but I'm handling everything else. More alpha male/leadership stuff in action.
W has noticed my detachment. Before I headed off to Panera to "work" last night, she said she felt like I was avoiding her. I just smiled and said that there was just a lot that I needed to get caught up on, which is true. Just keeping it upbeat.
Codependent No More is resonating so loudly with me. It's amazing how much comfort I'm finding reading these books and especially spending time on this forum. I feel like I'll be ready for anything that happens thanks to what I'm learning.
More GAL activities.
I started working on my Flight Instructor continuing education course that I need to finish by end of January.
I've been in a purging mood. I want to simplify and declutter my life.
I officially withdrew from an online course I no longer needed to complete.
I've been giving away junk to Goodwill, putting things on eBay, etc. I'm accomplishing three things here. Simple GAL, decluttering the house, and, if necessary, cut down on the amount of stuff I'd need to pack in the event of an S.
I even pared down my Facebook friends list. Got rid of people that I had no actual relationship with, mainly. Kept the cute single women, though. Just in case :-)
Last edited by Rzrback; 12/01/1411:27 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
But I'm also starting a new chapter in life. For me part of that is getting rid of possessions that are no longer useful or meaningful. My only question is whether my marriage is one of them.
My bassett hound just bolted out of the garage. I'm applying the 180 and not chasing her....maybe she'll come back!!
Last edited by Rzrback; 12/02/1402:37 AM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
Do you plan on reading the partner book to CNM? Curious? I ordered both today. Apparently one is supposed to help you identify the co-dependency. The other to help fix it?
I dunno. We shall see what the post man brings.
Good job decluttering, GAL and sounds like a good MC session.
Do you plan on reading the partner book to CNM? Curious? I ordered both today. Apparently one is supposed to help you identify the co-dependency. The other to help fix it?
I dunno. We shall see what the post man brings.
Good job decluttering, GAL and sounds like a good MC session.
yay!
The copy I got from the library had both books in one.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I'm a little stunned that your marriage counselor would just sweep the infidelity under the rug, and then ask you to DATE her. What do you know about this MC's stance on infidelity?
I'm a little stunned that your marriage counselor would just sweep the infidelity under the rug, and then ask you to DATE her. What do you know about this MC's stance on infidelity?
Starsky
She's been pretty clear that W will need to break contact with OM in order to reconnect with me. We didn't talk about OM today, but there's more to come.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I know that I need to see W making positive moves away from OM. How can you see things like that when there's not that much contact between them? I figured out her passcode and took a quick peek. No text messages between them for a week. The last conversation was pretty pedestrian. She's got several pics of him on her phone, but it looks like they were taken from his Facebook page. Obviously she can't just tell me he's done with him and have me believe it.
I can't help but wonder if he's getting tired of the game himself. Wouldn't that be something? I'm also starting to wonder if the EA was fairly one-sided.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
This is hard to say and I hold this in my sitch, but W relationship with OM is her concern. The existence of it is important to know, so you can have your boundaries.
Great passion or dishwater crush? Irrelevant.
No doubt others here would have you know in detail. My view is that it is unimportant. You and W and your M are your main goal without an open marriage. That is what you say you want and DB is about a happy marriage between two committed parties.
Whilst you focus on W and OM, it's blocking rzr. By your growth, your change, your improved GAL then you have the best chance of building the best relationships including W. The change is in progress, keep going. Vanilla
Last edited by Vanilla; 12/02/1402:59 PM.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
This is hard to say and I hold this in my sitch, but W relationship with OM is her concern. The existence of it is important to know, so you can have your boundaries.
Great passion or dishwater crush? Irrelevant.
No doubt others here would have you know in detail. My view is that it is unimportant. You and W and your M are your main goal without an open marriage. That is what you say you want and DB is about a happy marriage between two committed parties.
Whilst you focus on W and OM, it's blocking rzr. By your growth, your change, your improved GAL then you have the best chance of building the best relationships including W. The change is in progress, keep going. Vanilla
I agree with you; I know it's ultimately their business. I'm just trying to figure out what to look for to see if she's moving back towards me. By her words and her actions right now that I can see, it looks as if she is. But, I know better than to hang anything on that. I also know better than to think that she's simply going to come home one day and say "whew, what was I thinking? Husband, you and I are going to be just fine." Just a question I had in my head when I woke up this morning. That's why I post those questions here.
And yes, you're right. My M has the best chance of getting rebuilt through my consistent growth and change.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
I know that I need to see W making positive moves away from OM. How can you see things like that when there's not that much contact between them?
It's one of those Potter Stewart things. You remember him, the old Supreme Court justice, who said -- about pornography -- "I can't define it, but I'll know what it is when I see it."
You will KNOW when your wife is moving back towards you. SHE will go no-contact with OM, and she will demonstrate to YOU that she has. SHE might ask you about MC'ing, or a Retrouvaille weekend or something. SHE will ask you "What would it take for us to get back together again, and work at this?" Those sorts of things.
It's NOT just about "being nice" to you, and in fact at the beginning it will most likely be the OPPOSITE. She will be at her "nicest" when having just gotten a rush from a "hit" from OM, and she may be at her most irritable when she's in hard withdrawal from TRULY going no-contact with him, and be angry towards you for "making me give up my affair," as sick as that sounds.
Trust me . . . you will just know. It will be unlike anything she's projected toward you through all of this.
It's one of those Potter Stewart things. You remember him, the old Supreme Court justice, who said -- about pornography -- "I can't define it, but I'll know what it is when I see it."
You will KNOW when your wife is moving back towards you. SHE will go no-contact with OM, and she will demonstrate to YOU that she has. SHE might ask you about MC'ing, or a Retrouvaille weekend or something. SHE will ask you "What would it take for us to get back together again, and work at this?" Those sorts of things.
It's NOT just about "being nice" to you, and in fact at the beginning it will most likely be the OPPOSITE. She will be at her "nicest" when having just gotten a rush from a "hit" from OM, and she may be at her most irritable when she's in hard withdrawal from TRULY going no-contact with him, and be angry towards you for "making me give up my affair," as sick as that sounds.
Trust me . . . you will just know. It will be unlike anything she's projected toward you through all of this.
Starsky
OK, makes sense. A "know it when I see it" thing. We're already in MC so that won't be a clue. She was mildly affectionate last night after we went to bed. I didn't really reciprocate. She's going to be in for a shock if she tries to initiate sex before OM is out of the picture. I don't think I've ever turned down sex with her before. That'll be a change!
I'm fully prepared for it to be ugly when she does cut off OM. The last time she did it (before Halloween) she went into a deep depression for about 2 days. She's terrified to go back there again. What she's forgetting is that it passed after less than 48 hours, and our relationship immediately improved, including her sexual attraction to me which she claims is gone. Not to be coarse, but if that was her when she wasn't attracted to me, then I'm in for some good times if/when that attraction comes back.
That lasted 4 days until she got drunk and contacted him. By Monday it was like nothing had changed between us. She's too foggy to see the pattern, but I know she'll have to get through that fog herself. That's why I persist with MC, perhaps the C can help her see that pattern and find the courage to do what she needs to do.
OK, enough OM talk. I'm trying to cut down.
New GAL news. I run a 4-man marathon relay with 3 of my oldest friends every Spring. We had to miss this year, but we've got the band back together for 2015. With my weight loss and the pace times I've been getting in training, it should be a sweet race next year. I'm stoked!
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
The date MC recommended that you guys plan out. I suggest that the date be centered on the woman as a way to re-attract your W to you. As for going to a movie, pick one that focuses on emotions not some action-oriented one like "Thor."
Then during the dinner date, pretend that you are a guy named Norman who works as an archaeologist and ask your W to pretend to be someone like a Jessica who works as a nurse (let her pick the name and occupation). I did this a few times with Ms. Wonka and they made for fun, entertaining date nights. Nothing like acting like someone else and get your imaginations going.
Oh and when you do actually go out on a date, be sure to have on some new clothes and a small dab of cologne on you.
She was mildly affectionate last night after we went to bed. I didn't really reciprocate. She's going to be in for a shock if she tries to initiate sex before OM is out of the picture. I don't think I've ever turned down sex with her before. That'll be a change!
Just say something like "As much as I always love making love with you, considering where our marriage is at right now, I really don't think it's a good idea."
We've settled on Friday night. We'll probably go to our favorite Teppanyaki place for dinner. I'm not telling her where we're going. I'm just going to text her that morning and tell her to be ready at 7:00 and to wear something I can show her off in. We guys always love arm candy!
Not sure about a movie. I thought about "The Best of Me" until I read the reviews. The reviews are bad, and a movie that romanticizes infidelity is probably not the best choice.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
She was mildly affectionate last night after we went to bed. I didn't really reciprocate. She's going to be in for a shock if she tries to initiate sex before OM is out of the picture. I don't think I've ever turned down sex with her before. That'll be a change!
Just say something like "As much as I always love making love with you, considering where our marriage is at right now, I really don't think it's a good idea."
That's my thought. As bad as I want to (she looked SO good getting dressed this morning), it's not a good idea until OM is resolved. The last thing I want her to think is that she can get me to be her doormat for occasional sexual crumbs. When she recommits I'll rock her world, but not beforehand.
Last edited by Rzrback; 12/02/1405:49 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
date night sounds like a plan. i think it would be a great idea to do something silly and fun. go play putt putt, roller skate, ice skate, something that shows you can just have fun with no pressure. if that goes well, you can always have a romantic plan for the second part of the date. a got to with me is "can i buy you and ice cream cone?" who doesn't love ice cream and that's not pressure packed like "do you wanna go park?". just some ideas.
M40 XW35 M11 T15 S9 D5 Bomb 6/3/14 Papers del 10/3/14 D final 12/5/14
I wish I could love you and make you believe it 'Cause that's all you ever wanted From me
date night sounds like a plan. i think it would be a great idea to do something silly and fun. go play putt putt, roller skate, ice skate, something that shows you can just have fun with no pressure. if that goes well, you can always have a romantic plan for the second part of the date. a got to with me is "can i buy you and ice cream cone?" who doesn't love ice cream and that's not pressure packed like "do you wanna go park?". just some ideas.
Silly and fun is good. One of her complaints about me is that we don't laugh enough anymore. I was thinking of some things that would be fun, but also not force us into too much conversation and run the risk of an R talk. Something original too. It's supposed to be rainy and chilly that night so it'll need to be indoors. She doesn't care for bowling. Maybe teppanyaki and then retire to a coffee shop and bring a board game.
It's been so long since I had to plan a date.
Last edited by Rzrback; 12/02/1408:43 PM.
Ex Rzrback Me 43 Her 44 D11, D15 T21, M19 BD 9/9/2014 Piecing
Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands - Clint Eastwood
This should only be the first of many dates in the years to come. So better become good at it. You know there are websites and books about how to do this right? Google it. bravo61's ideas are very good. She will associate any emotion with the person she's with. So fun is important -- movie is actually not so good (never really understood it as a date -- so little interactions for 2 hours). My favorite of all the above is mini-putt: it's always a good laugh.
M39 D6 D3 (at S) S 2014-09 D 2016-09
"You can't start a fire sitting around, crying over a broken heart" - Bruce Springsteen.
