Mozza (5)

[25yearsmlc]

I need advice. I'd have to send an email to W. Usually, it would be pretty plain, but in such a sitch... I think it's self-explanatory. It's about school pics and insurance.

Hi,

Thanks for the pic of D6. I thought I had ordered the full package, with the small and medium ones, but I might have made a mistake. Are there any left?

Also, for D3 I hadn't ordered any [she sent me tons] but I could keep a few. Do you want the rest?

For the insurance, there seems to be only 300$ available for IC. Have you used it already? [I think her sessions are covered elsewhere]

Instead of asking her something she could feel is none of your business, I suggest you just ask her if she'd mind you making the claim, and give her the receipts. In fact, maybe her use of IC is irrelevant (if they go by members), so instead of possibly being seen as prying, why not just ask if she'd let you get the claim if you bring her the receipt?


If not, would you mind putting in the claim if I bring you the receipt?

It seems to be a burdensome email full of requests and veiled criticism (you sent me the wrong pics! you'll have to deal with insurance forms for me). Is there a better way to say it or should I just drop it?


Well, yes this is a communication of a "TO DO" list that you're giving HER to do. It's not a huge "To Do" list, but I share your concern that it is one, nonetheless.

The insurance is important enough to clarify. You need to clarify it, but the way you asked her about HER IC or HER use of it, seemed weird. So drop that part but ask about the insurance/counseling sessions.

And the rest is not very important really, unless you truly need more pictures. How many more do you need? Must she actually mail them to you, b/c that'a hassle for photos. Pick your battles wisely, and don't have many battles OR REQUESTS b/c those will read as "hassles" to her.

None of these pictures and even the money are more important than R.

Great!! Problem solved....But oh, wait...Why is the NEXT sentence a reason for you to request the photos??

Either they're important enough to discuss OR not? One second You say a "normal healthy" thing, and the next sentence you seem to take it back, or backslide.

This is you "measuring" in a way. Like when you say you "own" a problem in the marriage and the next sentence you complain about your wife's flaws again, like you want to make sure we can "see" that she's more flawed than you OR you explain and defend the trait you just admitted is a flaw you are working on, only to praise yourself or it later.
And it reminded me of how you'll also say you are having success at being LESS critical...right after you cut her down again. Try to catch yourself doing it, and then it'll be easier to change. And when you replace the negative things you do NOT want to say or do, you will need to learn some new POSITIVE behaviors to replace the negatives one with...okay?

Wives sense the criticism in our h's words AND in their silence.

I'd like to have the pics for friends and family. For the insurance, we've been exchanging about it for a while -- she brought me the paperwork last week.

Some context. Today, she said she formally applied to her former boss' job. I replied "You go girl!" (in English) to which she said "Just don't call me girl - it makes me feel weird". Anyone else cringed at "You go girl!"? It seemed like a plain idiom, an encouragement. I'm not even sure why she was offended, but I didn't ask. It's possible even she doesn't know.

1) why say"cringed"? It didn't sound as if she cringed. She commented that it made her "Feel weird" probably b/c the term "girl" connotes something to her from her native tongue.

But 2) it's an idiom as YOU KNOW so, that' that.

She heard something else, b/c it's an idiom and thus carries different meaning for us than for her. I would not say she was "offended" based on her comment. And this is NOT something to spend time on. No biggie.

To me it does not sound as if She made a big deal out of it-- and even if she had, it is not a big deal. So YOU need to be clear on that and Don't make out as if it is. That just feeds the idea that you said something odd. You did not. Move on...


Her response stung,

she barely made a comment worth repeating, let alone spending this much mental energy on. No need to feel "Stung" by it. Really, let this go...


because to me it suggests that she still doesn't care one bit about me, that she'll crack the whip on me at will. No good will at all for me.

Mozza, really?

it "suggests...she STILL doesn't CARE ONE BIT" about you? SIGH

Here's a 2 x 4...LET IT GO. She said Nothing indicating that she does not care about you. This is just a huge over reaction on your part. I don't know if this is a trait of yours

or if you cannot see that the emotional state you are in again, colors your vision of the world. But the FACTS in the above scenario simple do NOT justify this type of reaction in you.

Get a grip. Don't spiral or sulk b/c you gave her a compliment and she didn't lap it up.

Just move on and speak in the language and way she is MOST LIKELY to respond to. Okay? Good....problem solved, let's move on now, shall we?

You can do this but you need to keep the big picture in mind AND the small stuff out of the way. Your world view has been tinted negatively and has colored things so much that it may well have been a factor in you guys getting here..

So change that trait, please.

No matter what SHE does or says or feels, you need to change your world view into a more positive one b/c YOU will be happier. Period.

Keep on keeping on

[Vanilla]

Mozza

I am not going to quote the large quote again. It is the same as 25 is giving 2x4s about.

Your WAWs requests seem very businesslike and ordinary about practical issues. From my perspective as a girl, it seems that you are mind reading. This is sort of message that I could be sending to H, a practical, there is x y and z.

Stop it!
Do ordinary things in an ordinary way without creating internal drama. Mole hills and mountains ring true.

Stillness
Vanilla

[Mozza]

25yearsmlc - First, thank you so much for "adopting" me. I appreciate that you stop by and care enough about my sitch to spend some of your precious time helping me figuring it out.

I've decided to drop the pictures. Asking for them would be like saying "You're still so disorganized!" I take tons of them and these school pictures are not that good anyway. I'll have my own session with the kids. I'm still conflicted about not voicing any of my needs, be it just the kids pictures I ordered and she's not giving me, for fear of provoking any negative feeling in her.

And it reminded me of how you'll also say you are having success at being LESS critical...right after you cut her down again. Try to catch yourself doing it, and then it'll be easier to change. And when you replace the negative things you do NOT want to say or do, you will need to learn some new POSITIVE behaviors to replace the negatives one with...okay?

Are you saying I should not be critical of her at all on these boards either? And in my heart? Honest question. I find it interesting.

That just feeds the idea that you said something odd. You did not. Move on...

Thanks for this. Moving on.

Here's a 2 x 4...LET IT GO. She said Nothing indicating that she does not care about you. This is just a huge over reaction on your part. I don't know if this is a trait of yours

I never thought about it before, but perhaps overreacting is one of my traits. I did get upset quickly and could calm down much faster than her -- this was an issue because she'd been upset that I got angry and I'd be upset she wouldn't try to resolve the fight. It makes me controlling of the fights: I decide when they start and when they end. I'll note that down on my list of issues.

[Mozza]

I can't recall ANY reconciliation that took less than several (9?) months. Most took over a year. More than half involved OM/OWs.

Thanks. I know I'm impatient. It wouldn't be good to be back together after only two months separated. I've a lot of work to do and I'm barely getting started. I feel a strong desire to change, I've figured out a lot of things, but I can't say that I feel like a new person, someone whom I trust would be different in the long run.

Just so I know, are you working on becoming a better, more active listener? And didn't you say you began an exercise program or you are getting in shape?

Yes, I'm exercising more and I can see the difference already. I've always been skinny, but now I'm slightly more fit (just one month into it). More importantly for me (and for her) is becoming a better listener. I'm learning to validate. I find it very instructive to have absolutely no choice but to listen and validate her. I can't grant myself any exception, so I really see its full impact. In a way, I'm happy we still have almost daily positive interactions, though she said she was hoping for that when she left, because of the kids.

But for You to say "doing nothing is easy for me -- b/c that's 'not pursuing' *** it is also more of the same old thing from you. It's exactly why YOU should Not apply the guideline of "no pursuit". Smothering her is the Opposite of Your problem.

THANK YOU! I'm glad you addressed this issue. I'm lost on this one. She just left me two months ago and she's with an OM. By all accounts, they seem to be very much in love. This suggests that I should clear out until things die out between them. In the meantime, I try to be a positive presence. I don't cause her trouble intentionally, I reply to her emails, be they about work or Kim Kardashian. I validate, I ask questions, I make her laugh. Should I go further and initiate communications? We had a good lunch 10 days ago, which she initiated. Should I extend the next invitation eventually?

First off, I didn't know how short your time line is. 2 months? Wow Mozz, you are too early to want to quit. This is a marathon, Not a sprint. Pace yourself! Don't push for so much clarity this early on, or at least get Your Own clarity first, & situational clarity will only come with TIME....[i]you'll fall apart if you don't become a lot more patient. A lot...

I'm not anywhere near quitting! Some people recommend taking one day at a time, but I admit that it gives me peace to think that this think will take months, a year, etc. It gives me space today, it puts any interaction in perspective. Still, I'm struggling to know what I'm supposed to be doing today vis-à-vis my W. For me, I know I need to GAL, work on my changes, etc. But in my interactions with her?

Thing is, even if you were not a very involved dad, your kids will always love you, AND You can develop a closer relationship with them anyhow, by spending time with them.

I'm a very involved dad. Always been doing my half, bathing, putting them to bed, and cooking half the time, etc. Also, we both traveled and left each other with the kids for a week or two at a time. It's in part why this all seems so natural to them. I've been taking care of them for years. The S has gotten us closer, especially D3 who's really cuddlier than she used to be with me. For that, I'm grateful.

[Mozza]

@25yearsmlc: By the way, I'm really curious of the differences you see between my WAW and that of MCS.

Thanks Vanilla. Yes, I need to decrease the drama.

[Hoju]

And it reminded me of how you'll also say you are having success at being LESS critical...right after you cut her down again. Try to catch yourself doing it, and then it'll be easier to change. And when you replace the negative things you do NOT want to say or do, you will need to learn some new POSITIVE behaviors to replace the negatives one with...okay?

Are you saying I should not be critical of her at all on these boards either? And in my heart? Honest question. I find it interesting.
[/quote]

Mozza the one thing I've learned from my short time on this earth is that an emotion will perpetuate more of the same emotion. Meaning if on these boards and in your heart you're critical of her actions it will be harder to fake it when game time comes. It's best to in all your walks of life think and act as if the person were listening. This goes for everything not just WAW, you need to truely forgive and understand and accept your WAW for who she is.

[Vanilla]

Please revisit Sandis guidelines. Let W initiate interactions and respond, if you don't know what to say you can delay or defer. "I need to think about it" or " can I check my diary, unsure if I have something booked"

Criticism embeds and leaks, try observation with compassion. " I'm disappointed you feel that way" . " you must tell me sometime how you reached that conclusion" .

You write about your loving and close relationship with your children, makes me smile and radiates from your posts.

Long haul winner

Vanilla

[25yearsmlc]

And it reminded me of how you'll also say you are having success at being LESS critical...right after you cut her down again. Try to catch yourself doing it, and then it'll be easier to change. And when you replace the negative things you do NOT want to say or do, you will need to learn some new POSITIVE behaviors to replace the negatives one with...okay?

Are you saying I should not be critical of her at all on these boards either? And in my heart? Honest question. I find it interesting.

Mozza the one thing I've learned from my short time on this earth is that an emotion will perpetuate more of the same emotion. Meaning if on these boards and in your heart you're critical of her actions it will be harder to fake it when game time comes.


BINGO^^^^....

Why would you "need" to be critical of her HERE?

The claim and the idea that we come here to "just vent" rings hollow to me. USUALLY (not always but way more often than not) people who "vent" here, stay stuck in their victimhood and anger, LONGER.

If you don't feel a lot calmer after you supposedly "vented," then it's NOT helping you at all. It's making your wounds fester and rot.

Avoid seeing her so negatively b/c it comes across HERE and I'd bet it has in your own life a lot more than you realize. Your description of how you two fight makes me think you let off steam faster but for HER, there are wounds you are not even aware of. And it wears on her. (Do you BULLY her in arguments, Not letting the matter drop when she retreats or wants to switch topics? If so, that's a lot like bullying to me. You don't have to hit someone to bludgeon them with your opinion).

When my h says a snotty thing and then drops the issue and "makes up" later, but does not SAY something to un-do his earlier comment, it still hurts me long after HE thinks "it's over"....a lot of us are that way. Don't think an apology means the comment has been rescinded AND forgotten; it has not.

Usually it's still stinging and what I mean to say is, there are many things that cannot be "unsaid", so don't say them at all. MOST criticisms are that way.

You seem to think you "SHOULD" tell her the negative things you feel as if they have value to her. They do Not.

You need to let that sink in. Unless there is an important boundary for you, (which is not about HER so much as about you)

there's NO "need" to tell her your negative opinions of her. Ever.

Why would there ever be? It's not your job to help her become her best self, that's for her church or parents, and their job ended years ago too. Giving her negative feedback will never make her feel loved. THAT is the spouses job, (not the "Oh but I'm helping her not be so flawed, you know, b/c I just want her to be her best", which is a lie that critical spouses tell themselves to justify their harping and negative focus.

Since you do tend to see things as half empty, I urge extra caution for you in this area.

Work on YOU.

It's best to in all your walks of life think and act as if the person were listening. This goes for everything not just WAW, you need to truely forgive and understand and accept your WAW for who she is. [/quote]


Mozz, I say all this^^ but not with the idea that you are "Way behind" where you are supposed to be. I say these things so you don't backslide, which is tempting and happens here, way too often. First and something you MUST get, is that forgiving her, is for YOU more than anyone else. It means letting go of the pain you feel from her, and it means that no matter what happens between you two, the Affair is not the indicator for you of happiness or feeling good about yourself, etc. IT's NOT a barometer of your self worth. Let it go.


IF you two reconcile, THEN there will be other aspects that need addressing such as her regaining your trust AND you regaining hers, and transparency, etc. For now, that's not applicable.

I want you to know that Your insights sound authentic, and you seem to be bravely looking within. I believe the most important journey in life is an inward one.


If you continue on this path, I think You will become a man that only a fool would leave.

And that matters a lot.

[jim0987]

Mozza, I know its a different relationship but the premise works I think so go with me on this.

Would you be critical of one of your Daughters in your heart? Would you vent? Frustrated maybe, looking for some changes in behaviour probably, but critical? I suspect not.

I keep getting the song stuck in my head but the message is clear, all the stuff that makes you want to criticise - 'let it go'

Actually (Just because I always hook into metaphors) and this is entirely off the cuff, think about the film frozen as a metaphor for your situation where you are Elsa and her magic is your influence on your relationship. act out of fear and try to control then you freeze the whole kingdom, but when you act out of love everyone can enjoy courtyard ice skating in summer. Love can thaw a frozen heart. (You have two young D's I don't believe for a second you haven't seen it)

[Mozza]

Avoid seeing her so negatively b/c it comes across HERE and I'd bet it has in your own life a lot more than you realize.

OK, I will try. I see how it can work. It's not going to be easy. When I think of all my faults and flaws, there's always a huge "YES BUT..." in my head and then a list of hers. I also see that I must give a negative image of her to the people around me because no matter how I try to explain that I have my own issues, they always seem to blame her in the end. All their information on the sitch comes from me, so it must be my fault. In short, my story is that she fell in love with a handsome colleague 10 years my junior who was hitting on her. He took advantage of issues in our M. I have to learn to STFU.

(Do you BULLY her in arguments, Not letting the matter drop when she retreats or wants to switch topics? If so, that's a lot like bullying to me. You don't have to hit someone to bludgeon them with your opinion).

I'll have to think about it because it appears to be the opposite at first sight. As I said, I drop the matter faster and then I try to get her to calm down, to reconcile -- she acknowledges this. Come to think of it, that's just what's happening now. On a related note, my IC suggested that this separation might just be the continuation of our R: the same dynamics.

You seem to think you "SHOULD" tell her the negative things you feel as if they have value to her. They do Not. (...) Giving her negative feedback will never make her feel loved. THAT is the spouses job, (not the "Oh but I'm helping her not be so flawed, you know, b/c I just want her to be her best", which is a lie that critical spouses tell themselves to justify their harping and negative focus.)

You hit very close to home here. It's been a big part of our R since the beginning. She was very damaged when I met her (suicide attempts among other things) and she rebuilt through our R, became a confident woman, a mom of two with a good career. I'm 5 years older and more mature, so that often gave me an advantage in assessing situations and solutions. That's how I became the "adult" in the couple, not necessarily because I liked it. But by the time she was 33, she was her own adult and there was no need for me to take charge of the final say as much as I did. As much as I wanted her success, it was always with my support. She needed to succeed by herself -- she'll probably need that to ever g out with me again confidently.

In any case, she's of the same opinion as you: she left saying she doesn't want to be under my influence anymore, even the positive one. It struck me as odd at the time, but you're shining a new light on this. Thank you.

I want you to know that Your insights sound authentic, and you seem to be bravely looking within. I believe the most important journey in life is an inward one. If you continue on this path, I think You will become a man that only a fool would leave. And that matters a lot.

THANK YOU! I much appreciate the positive encouragement. This is the worst time of my life, it forces me to doubt myself a lot when I'm already at my weakest. A little pick-me-up is very helpful every now and then. I'm glad to hear that you believe in me.