I thought everything was okay...

[sandi2]

We did go out on date nights, probably once a month. We had one scheduled the weekend after the BD. The issue in the marriage with dates, vacations, her own nights out and all was that we never got to the point that we both felt balanced. She felt we didn't do enough and I thought we did too many. This issue got worse once we had kids. I know that I didn't focus on us as a couple compared to us as a family. I actually wrote this in the letter to her during the week of BD.

When you say that the two of you were not "balanced", do you mean you did not agree about the amount of time given to these activities....or are you saying you couldn't equal out proper time for each other, the kids, the jobs, etc.?

I know I brought stress home from work, which was my comment about being grumpier than I should have been. However, I don't think any of these were at an unhealthy level for myself or the M. I was just trying to say on the post that I did let my emotions known and sometimes I let stress at work affect my mood at home. I don't think anyone, including her, would characterize me as a moody or an unhappy person.

Would you say she is "sensitive" to your mood? You sound a lot like my BIL. He brings his work home and is pretty grumpy. My sister is the type that whatever mood the other person has....it affects hers. I don't mean that it made her grumpy, but it brought her spirits down a lot. To me, he appears mad at the world when he first comes home. But I'm sure he would disagree. Anyway, that's what I mean when I ask if your W was sensitive to your mood? Did it bring her down?

Also, I think that the balance of work was not equal in her mind as you said. I really did try to make it as balanced as possible.

Are you referring to the housework or professional work? B/c you say you did share the chores about equally. So what do you mean about the work not being balanced? Did she think her job was harder than yours? What if it was? What could have been done about it? I guess I don't understand.

According to my W; with OM they would hang out on their day's off and supposedly just go to the movies, lunch, etc. It then expanded out from there. So that's some credence in your theory. Double ugh...

Lastly, as far as losing her identity, I need to think on that one. I never have figured out exactly what she meant. My gut is that she feels as if being a mom/professional/wife has caused her to lose who she really wants to be, but I don't know. To tag this with what I said above, maybe it was the lack of Quality Time for the M and for herself made her feel trapped?

I think you're getting warmer. Maybe she feels she is blending into what you see as your "family" until you can't just see her apart/separately. I wonder if she has wanted to grab your hands, put them on her face and say, "Look at ME, not the kids or anyone else....just see ME for a little while".

Think about it. Her and OM, no kids, no house chores, no discussion of bills or what they have to get done next or what the kids need. It is just her and him.....together. All of his attention is on her. It's not what they are doing or where they are going that really matters to her....but that she's the center of his attention and admiration. They flirt, he feeds her ego, they giggle and enjoy each other's company, he makes her feel special, and he makes her feel young and attractive. They may share what they think or feel about things, talk about beliefs, personal goals, dreams, fantasies, whatever. It makes no difference how many years she's been M or how old she may get, a woman still needs this from her man. (Who should be her H and not OM.)

To me, needing or wanting this from her H has nothing to do with self-confidence or esteem. It's just like the man needing admiration and respect from his W. We all have certain emotional needs that our spouse should meet, not some other person. It is our responsibility to learn what the other one needs. What makes them "tick". I think this may be what some call "soul mates", b/c they feel their souls connect.

For women, it's not all about the surface. It's not all about the physical stuff around us. It goes deeper. It is about each other's spirit, or the soulish part. That part that is the real inside person that makes you--"you". It is about connecting the souls. That is what so many men don't comprehend. If you feed her soul, if you make love to her soul, if you will spend time with her soul.....she should be a satisfied lady! But when that part is neglected and starved for so long, she feels like she's died on the inside. The emptiness is horrible and it leaves her in a vulnerable condition, b/c someone is going to notice her one day, or she's going to reach out to another person.

There is a lot of information written about what women need (as well as about what men need).

[Mozza]

This is very useful, sandi2. It helps me to think about my own sitch and I've copied it on my thread. Thanks a lot. Hope it's enlightening for you too, MCS. Let's see where we can go from here.

[sandi2]

Thanks Mozza. It is always nice to know it helps someone.

[Mozza]

Thanks Mozza. It is always nice to know it helps someone.

Ha! You're a godsend. I can't believe the generosity of people like you and the other vets who keep coming back here, years after they pieced their M. You're helping us to stay sane, to cope and to apply solutions that work. I can't say enough how grateful I am to all of you. A special thanks to you for your gentle way to get hard truths across. I don't know how you find the balance, but you do.

I've exported more of your wisdom to my thread and responded with stuff specific to my sitch. It's helping me a lot.

MCS: I re-read your entire thread to catch up. I'll continue to keep a close eye on what's going on because, as you wrote on my thread, our sitches have a lot in common. It looks like our way out is to find the causes of our S, work on ourselves and see if our W get out of the fog and find us. Your interactions are not as good as mine, but your wife's affair seems to be going much worse than that of my W. Let's see what happens. (and please don't stay silent for two weeks again!)

[MCS]

Sandi2,

First, I need to echo Mozza, your input is really appreciated. Every time I read a post from you on my thread or others, I get so much out of them. It is so easy to blame the other person, especially with an OM and Fog involved. However, I'm so glad that you provide enough careful balance for us to look at ourselves and truly find what the core issues are in our M. I pray that this time to grow personally will help in reconciliation, but if not; in helping us in our new lives. Thanks so much.

So, you've nailed it once again. I read your post and literally my W said some things so close to what you have here, that it blows me away. I'm not sure how you do it...

The balance of time was between her and I deciding how much was needed in the marriage. It wasn't always us as a couple, but sometimes her as an individual.

Sensitive to my mood, I wouldn't say that. I didn't see her mood change based on mine. But how I would react to the stress was talking to her about work (since we did similar jobs.) Time together as a couple? Yes......Quality time together? Nope........2x4 there.

I was talking about house work. This is another perception thing, I think. I feel we had a balanced workload at home, but I don't think she did. Like I said, it seemed as if these discussions would get resolved when I would help out with whatever she asked. However, I think she may have been resentful that she felt she had to ask.

On your last point.....I think that's exactly what it was and what I neglected to give her the last couple years. I so wish I had seen it, I'm tearing up right now. She did become a 'mom' first in my eyes, because I thought I was a 'dad' first. As I said, that's how I was raised. Funny, your explanation of OM is exactly how her and I got together. Friends, then we shared more intimate stuff about our attempts at relationships and then it hit the tipping point of getting physical and became a 'couple.'

I'll add some more in another post. Thanks so much Sandi2.....next big question...how do I 180 this?

[MCS]

To follow up, what you have said has put all of the pieces together. It stinks because when we talked those couple days, she admitted almost exactly what you said to me, but it didn't make sense to me why she would end up leaving and not just working on our R. I felt there had to be more and she was just covering up for him. Now it makes sense....the physical piece was part of the equation; but to use your words, she felt he was her soulmate...no longer me.
I won't go into too many of the details, but it wasn't even a textbook PA. I think she attempted to take it there and that's when he said no. I know this happened before BD and I'm sure it wasn't a decision that she took lightly.

So....It didn't work out for her, but she was still emotionally attached to him, she didn't feel 'safe' telling me what happened, her love for me was 'gone,' she thought I knew something, she had guilt that she was still with me, and lastly this would be a deal breaker in our R. As I said, the BD started with me asking "what is going on, it seemed as if you have been distant over the last month or so".....and all of the things just listed had the perfect storm

Good News....
1) She was able to share her feelings with me for a short period of time after BD, even though I went too far and she got fearful.
2) I did see then that she was not ready to try to reconcile yet. She was still attached to that R emotionally
3) She knows that this situation isn't a deal breaker for me, I still want to work on the M.

Bad News....
1) I shut her down from sharing any more feelings by assuming there had to be something more.
2) When our communication broke back down to nothing, I'm treating her exactly the way that she left me for. The mother of our kids....
3) She feels her heart was/is closed for me (her words)

So, I think I may be starting to see what I need to change as well as using that for a DB plan.

[MCS]

MCS: I re-read your entire thread to catch up. I'll continue to keep a close eye on what's going on because, as you wrote on my thread, our sitches have a lot in common. It looks like our way out is to find the causes of our S, work on ourselves and see if our W get out of the fog and find us. Your interactions are not as good as mine, but your wife's affair seems to be going much worse than that of my W. Let's see what happens. (and please don't stay silent for two weeks again!)

Mozza,

Thanks. I've learned a lot from your thread.

In this whole situation, my faith seems to keep saying to continue to love her and also be patient. I've been wavering in both of these over the last week or so, since our communication has broken down and my feelings of her just being selfish has increased. I was having an angry day today since I found out that the W is going away somewhere for vacation next week. Doesn't matter where, but I feel like that's what she's been doing for the last three months....

Sandi2 is in fact a godsend and I feel like another weight has been lifted off my shoulders for the time being, since its starting to be clear on things that I need to work on. It has turned my anger to hope and a PMA.....Thanks Sandi2

[sandi2]

Thank you for the kind words!

However, I think she may have been resentful that she felt she had to ask.

I had to laugh a little b/c I have had discussions with other women about this very thing. I think the way most of them see it is, " Can't the H see the things that need to be done, or does he think his W will eventually get to it? She doesn't want to ask b/c he should know she needs help or that it is only fair he does as much as she does. I mean, if he really loves her..........".

Here is where another issue begins. She allows that type of thinking to lead to resentment. Rather than to just ask him to do such and such, she brews the stinking thinking. Sadly, many women are this way, and what started out as very minor, grows into a bigger problem. She gets an attitude, and the poor H doesn't have a clueas to what's going on. I suppose, in a way, that is another example of how differently men and women think. I won't say that every woman on earth is like this, but the ones I have heard talk about it.

I would suggest that a H would walk into the room rolling up his sleeves (to indicate his serious intentions) and say, "Okay, tell me what to do", or "How can I help?". Something to let her know you want to do it for her, and not b/c you believe she is incapable.

Now I believe this is important. If her LL happens to be Acts of Service, where would you rank? She may see you helping as acts of service, and therefore, speaking love to her in the language she understands.

But it doesn't depend on it being her LL in order to affect her feelings. However, if it is, and you start acting on it, I think it could, at least, help put her in a better mood.

And speaking of moods........I have to talk out my stress, too. But if you talking about the day at work seems to go south for the rest of the family, is there someone else you could talk to as you are driving home? Then you could get it out of your system by the time you got home. Even just talking outloud to yourself (if nobody else is around) might help.

[MCS]

Now I believe this is important. If her LL happens to be Acts of Service, where would you rank? She may see you helping as acts of service, and therefore, speaking love to her in the language she understands.

I still need to go back and re-read LL, but I don't think acts of service is her LL, I think most of her resentment centered just around her feeling she was pulling more weight. Reason being, I'm always doing projects/improvements around the house. When she was gone for a week (the week she was trying to set up with OM) I renovated a room in the house. During a rant from her in a counseling session, she spewed all over the fact that she didn't like how I renovated it and it was inconsiderate of me to renovate it because she didn't think it needed it. I know....believe nothing with what they say.

And speaking of moods........I have to talk out my stress, too. But if you talking about the day at work seems to go south for the rest of the family, is there someone else you could talk to as you are driving home? Then you could get it out of your system by the time you got home.

Well, I already 180'd this. Now I just talk about stresses at home to people at work

Seriously, this is a piece of cake to change, in fact rearranging my priorities since BD, work is pretty far down the list and I find myself not caring to talk about it with anyone anymore. Even so, I didn't really need to release it to her, I just look back now and see that is what I did. At the time, I thought she cared and was interested in it. Not that she wouldn't want me to say anything, but I'm sure she wanted other conversations instead. I would always try to get her to tell me about her day and she never was really interested in saying anything. I guess I should have taken the hint.

[jim0987]

I wish you well with all of this. I think you and I are in a similar situation in that my W was lonely but afraid to open up to me (when she did I shut her down with a 'solution' or I got defensive)

She looked elsewhere and when she thought I guy was interested she jumped. Unfortunately for her he only wanted casual.

I think you and I have very similar barriers to overcome with our W's.
- not trusted
- fear of me (and my reaction?)
- She's still lonely but closed to me
- lots of stored up resentment

All the ideas I have to overcome this seem to involve trying to reassure her or 180 ideas that mean being overly friendly. thats just pursuit and I doubt she would be receptive or believe it.