A big set of our issues (our repeated fight for our entire relationship) is around affection, intimacy, and time together
From her point of view, the issues in the R (affection. Intimacy, and time together) may have had to do with the below statement:
Quote:
I have made her feel like crap. Like she was a piece of meat in regards to our sex life. That I didn't care or listen to her about her need to feel close.
Has she tried to explain this over time? I think you are now getting real.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Yes. She has. I really have no good excuse. I like affection (not as much as she did/ does). I would often go for periods of being wrapped up in my head and be pretty inattentive to that and then I'd want my needs met when I wasn't addressing hers. I came from a very low affection family. My parents didn't hug. I never saw them sitting together or cuddling. This is not to excuse my behavior, it is just my model. She most often would bring it up after I started a discussion about my needs. I tried to change at times and it would work for a while or she'd just see any affection I gave her as having an ulterior motive for wanting to have sex.
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
That's what makes detaching so counter intuitive to me right now. My impulse is to try to fix it by being affectionate and spending lots of time with her but I know from both the readings and her demeanor that would be a bad idea.
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
Have you finished the Divorce Remedy yet? If so, read the book about love languages.
If your W wants affection......but not too keen about it leading to sex, then I have a few suggestions. You do realize that sex for her does not necessarily mean affection? I know a couple that had that problem. She wanted the kisses, hugs, cuddling, etc., but it made her upset that it always led to sex.....for him. So she stopped showing any affection. Then he accused her of being cold. It was a problem that nearly led to D. A lack of understanding in our mate's needs can be a huge problem that can make us feel lonely and sad. You may have held resentment about the sexual side to it, while she resented that it had to lead to sex. Have either of you thought about counseling for that specific problem?
What you said today about how you made her feel during sex suggests that she felt very disrespected instead of feeling cherished. Sorry if you've already mentioned this, but do have a porn addiction?
How respectful are you in your interactions with her? How about when the two of you are around others? Ever make her the butt of your jokes? Put her down? Talk disrespectfully to her while in front of others? Maybe not in your viewpoint, but hers? There are many little things (in the opinion of the man) that are extremely hurtful to a sensitive lady. If she has low self-esteem, this type of behavior from her H can lead to major problems in the MR, but she feels devalued by the one who should treasure her the most. Examine this closesly and see how you rate.
In order to reach the level of reconciliation, I believe you have to start over with your R with a WAW. For now, you need to go back to the stage of not being intimate and just be polite and curteous in your interactions. Think of her, or treat her, much like you would treat her if she were a boarder in your home. Not a young, sexy woman you want to hit on, but a lady you respect very much. Maybe even an older woman (if that will help). Practice speaking and having courteous manners. Do nothing that puts pressure or expectations on her. Btw, if you still share the bed, that's okay, just don't initiate anything.
After you do this for a while, you can slowly incorporate some non-sexual touches. Hand on her shoulder, pat on the back, hand in small of her back, etc. If you feel her resistance, then stop doing it, but if she doesn't then you slowly (very slowly) begin to work in some affectionate touches (not sexual), just tender, sweet touches. This takes time. Not just a few days. And during this period of time, you are working on the other areas of the R.
The 37 rules are to help you see how to pull back. But hopefully, you won't have to remain there forever. It is to help you detach and to give her space. As the R begins to heal, little by little these will dissolve. But again, it does take time to get there.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Yes. She has. I really have no good excuse. I like affection (not as much as she did/ does). I would often go for periods of being wrapped up in my head and be pretty inattentive to that and then I'd want my needs met when I wasn't addressing hers. I came from a very low affection family. My parents didn't hug. I never saw them sitting together or cuddling. This is not to excuse my behavior, it is just my model. She most often would bring it up after I started a discussion about my needs. I tried to change at times and it would work for a while or she'd just see any affection I gave her as having an ulterior motive for wanting to have sex.
I understand. The good news is that it's not too late to learn and to change how you think and behave. It's just as upsetting for her, but maybe in a different way from you. It took a long time for her to reach this place. She will need to feel safe (in an emotional sense) and start to feel respect and attraction again.
Have you ever read his needs - her needs? It might help you understand her better.
Quote:
That's what makes detaching so counter intuitive to me right now. My impulse is to try to fix it by being affectionate and spending lots of time with her but I know from both the readings and her demeanor that would be a bad idea.
Here's what's happening. You know you've messed up badly, and may lose your W. Now....at this time, you are wanting to do all those things she needed over those years. But for her....it is too late. Her feelings has shut down. She is fed up. So if you try to do those things now......she will be out of there. You are thinking in terms that she still feels the same about you, so you'll start doing what you should have before now.....and all will be fine. But she doesn't feel the same toward you. It has all changed. That's why those actions will fail if you try it. In fact, the WAW usually reacts very strongly about it. She does not want it and does not like it. As soon as you accept that that's the way she is, you can start doing things the right way.
You have to learndot take a different direction, now. You start by improving yourself for life, and by rebuilding a new R with her. At the present time, I don't know if you are a man she would even want to meet, much less have something more, but IDK. So by working on yourself, hopefully you will be a man she would like to meet, be around more, get to know better. It has to be done in small doses. Just like when you first met. Except now, she will be watching more closely, and you have more to prove.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
In regards to porn addiction: no. I watch it on occasion, but with no real regularity. I don't mistake porn for reality. I have read Divorce Remedy, but need to keep re-reading it to make sure it sinks in. I have also just read the book on 5 love languages. We have done counseling a long time ago. About 20+ years ago (before we were married) I had a one night stand and confessed it to her immediately. We were having the same issues then and just had been living together for a couple of years. We went to counseling again about 5 years later when she said she still was feeling the effects of my original infidelity. The first time we went the therapist wasn't very good for us (especially her). The second time it helped some. I have never belittled or made fun of her in front of anyone and not at home either. She would never put up with that from me or anyone. She is a very strong woman and I admire her for that. But I will think about that some more.
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
So far I have been polite and friendly. The only physical contact I have been doing is a brief hand on the shoulder or upper back sometimes when I come to tell her something. I can talk with her about her schooling, our kids, current events, and household tasks in a perfectly friendly manner. However if I say anything related to me (like something I thought was funny or work) she doesn't respond. She is making plans for the future that hinge on me (insurance, vacation), but I still have no idea if she plans to stay or go. She only ever told me "I don't know" (which is better than saying she wants a divorce) . I know she has to decide what to do and I cannot control that. I know she told me that she knows I have tried to be a good husband. I do the cooking, cleaning, pay the bills, and help with my boys. I try to do thoughtful things: I had got our wedding photo enlarged, made black and white and put in an antique frame. I sometimes randomly will pick her up a treat or little gift (something inexpensive). But when it comes to the affection, intimacy, and time together I really have failed. I will back off and work on myself. I've already been loosing weight.
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
After reading about the love languages, what do you think is your W's LL?
Back to what you said about your W feeling like a piece of meat when you have sex. What did you do that would make her feel that way? How does she feel about you watching porn?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I would guess her love language is physical touch or time together. I don't tell her about the porn. I might watch something once every couple of months. I know she wouldn't like it. It is usually when we hadn't had sex for a while (like a month or two). She has said she feels that way when we haven't been very connected and I look to initiate sex. She said it's like I want to from 0-60 too fast. And she is right. I am guilty of doing that.
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
Its not feeling like a "piece of meat" during. It was more of how I approached her. Me being ready to go at a moments notice and initiating stuff when she isn't feeling close since I hadn't been affectionate earlier.
M-44 W-44 Sons- 11&14 Married- 18 Together- 27 Separation mentioned- 9-29-14 Still together, but not "together" "if you feel rotten and forgotten, remember there'll be better days."
