You stated that you loved your spouse, yet in your daily life, was there obligation more than love ?
Love more than obligation ?
I really do not view loving my W as involving any forced obligation. I think the problem that I did have when we were together is prioritizing my handling of my work with my W's desire for more money coming in. And with our home having gone thru foreclosure, she was ultimately proven right. I was too slow in seeing the need to make changes in my work situation.
From a male perspective, I can tell you that Love and Obligation are very blurred lines...
What is loving ??
What is obligation ??
For me, it came back to the primative ritual "male" roles in our relationships.
Typically, the male in the relationship is the provider for the home. It goes back to our caveman days, (which we STILL cater to).
As long as we go out and gather for the meal, and provide a section of our cave, and build a fire...Our little Women should be thankful for all that we provide...right ??
I mean, how dare they want more once we get home after a rough day pillaging the forest, and killing a wild animal for food...
Same aspect ties into our pre-wired antiquated roles as Men...
We go out into the world, and provide a financially sound environment for our "little Women" , and expect them to be happy with us, and for us.
We spend long hours away from them, and self-serve our own needs once we do get home. Our needs become their responsibility, and while we expect them to fill our physical needs, their emotional needs go un-fulfilled, often times for weeks on end.
So eventually, our lines of our partners needs, becomes blurred with the the reality of what WE expect, and what our partners expect.
So being totally honest here...
How often were you a Lawyer in your relationship ?
How often did you negotiate your point ?
How long had it been, since you had walked through the door, and made her emotional needs, more important the what was in your head ???
Originally Posted By: Wet
Originally Posted By: Mach1
You say that you were forgiven through Grace and Mercy, and you say that you have shown Grace and Mercy, yet you did not mention that you showed any forgiveness....
Have you ???
Your words, at times, say that you are not judgmental, yet at several interactions with her, when you had the chance to show something new, you chose to show guilt and judgement towards her for her choices.
What also comes with that, is showing her that you are superior to her, just because your choices are different.
Are you superior to her ??
Why do you show that to her ???
An MLCer can smell judgement from a mile away...
I would guess that it is the thing that most of them fear the most....judgement for their actions.
Ouch! Yes, guilty, guilty, guilty. But until recently, my W has shown no fear of anyone judging her actions. She freely spoke to our two oldest daughters of the men she was seeing, and freely spoke of herself as being "single". So yes, I did actions to try and change my W's attitude on this - yes even being guilty of judging her, as you have pointed out.
But my W is pulling back on this. Over the last month, she is not being so open of what is going on in her private life. Which helps me to pull back so that I no longer feel the need to deal with my W. I am in process of not trying to deal with my W at all, except for our children. My s13's grades came in today, and he did well. So I shot W an email today thanking her for helping son do better at school.
You left some questions on the table there ^^^ ...
I see a LOT of lawyering in your answers too...
Your spouse, does NOT define who you are at your core...
Your spouse does not define who you are as a Man...
Your spouse does NOT dictate how you portray yourself...
She isn't responsible for your actions, words, or behavior...
Nor is she responsible for your feelings and emotions...
So why do you place that on her ????
Last edited by Mach1; 11/07/1403:21 PM. Reason: I failed the to, too, two test
Hi cat04, thank you for your comments. Your post was the hardest to deal with, and so I want to respond to it first. Your insight on women's view of love as a feeling is helpful to me.
Let's start by dealing with my pre-DB insistence that my W kiss me. Yes, I viewed kissing as an obligatory action owed to me by my W. Seeing it as clearly as you painted it here shows to me that I was clearly wrong, and W choosing to not kiss me was justified. DB has helped me to see these sort of actions in a clearer light.
Actions that I viewed as obligations for me during our marriage included fidelity, being the primary bread-winner, commitment, my protecting W unfortunately I focused on protecting W from stressful things (rather than protecting her physically and providing a roof over our heads). On the topic of my protecting the family physically, my W let me know that my failure to check out sounds in the house when she asked in the middle of the night was unacceptable to her. And she is right, and I have learned from this.
What does love look like to me? There is some overlap with obligation here. Fidelity and commitment to the relationship done because I want to (out of 'love'), is the purest form of these actions. Yes, respect also - which includes door opening, giving my W my arm esp during the wet/icy conditions of our state. Respect also includes valuing my W's opinion and input on decisions we had to make, is also important.
The physical relationship is also very important. My W was very good about meeting my physical needs of hugging, kissing, and more. I was good in meeting her physical needs, and also providing her with nightly back rubs/massages.
I think friendship is also very important in what 'love' looks like to me. W and I always talked, and not just about the kids. We had a strong bond of friendship where I wanted to talk to her when I was at the office, and make her laugh when she was down.
The spiritual connection is a final thing that I think is important as part of 'love'. We found a great church 17 years ago that we both loved, and which did a good job in teaching us and our children. W and I would often be co-leaders of Alpha groups (a course which was an introduction to Christianity and the Holy Spirit) at our church. I was gifted in active listening, and W was gifted with her compassionate heart. We would share the group leading for the night based upon the topic, and this worked great. We saw many people be blessed from the work we did together.
I hope I am providing a more helpful response to you of your question.
What is your primary love language? Mine was physical touch, and when w stopped the hugs and kisses before work and such, it was devastating to me.
And differences in how women and men view things?? Yup... Another poster (Kimmerz) recommended a book to me way back early in my sitch that was very enlightening about those differences, so much so that I am trying to get my oldest (21) to read it. It's "What Women Want Men to Know" by Barbara De Angelis. I highly recommend it to you.
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
Most Fridays, I like to post something funny. So the way the veterans have tried to help me this past week, brought to mind the old skit "Boot to the Head".
Quick journaling - I saw MiL and FiL today. We are together on the Board of Directors for a charity helping one of the poorest sections of Mazatlan, and I wanted to give them some copies of paperwork I filed. Although we chatted a bit, W was not even mentioned.
Picked up s13 at W's place and she asked for my help in cleaning up her computer. I agreed and it was filled with viruses. Ran a virus protection program and it removed some of them, but not all.
W was looking tired but dressed to kill. She wore a tight top, push up bra, spandex pants and stiletto heeled boots. She saw a woman friend from our old neighborhood for lunch, who is dealing with breast cancer, and had already started her treatments. Very sad.
The whole time I am there, W is arguing with s13. Silly stuff, like son not putting the bowls in the dishwasher the right way. I staid out of it, except once when s13 was rude, I told him to be respectful to his Mom.
Right before we left, I decided to ask W for a hug. It was a long, nice hug. And I am 7+ inches taller than W, so I wrapped her up well. Then she asked me to get s13 out of there, which I did. I've decided to give myself a permanent exemption from db'ing when W wears that outfit.
Kat, you know I think that you are the best. Kat said "Now when you pray for her, I suggest that you pray she finds peace for herself, that the pain in her life goes away and that she finds that she can do all that she wants in life."
I think this is great advice. My W right now is so frantic, does not get to sleep until 3 am, and I thought this might cause her to miss the peace and calm she had with me. But your advice W be blessed with peace is wise advice. For her to just have time to herself to think can only help.
The forgiveness thing. That's hard. And not bc she is running around on me. This part I really don't care about. Anyway, I understand my need to eventually forgive. But not today.
Full disclosure: I lived most of my life in the TC...saw real Viking football OUTSIDE, the Stars played hockey where they belonged...North, etc., yahsureyoubetcha, dontchaknow?
Ah well, your appreciation of hockey, especially Minnesota North Star's hockey shows you are a man of keen intellect. The last year of the North Stars I had partial season tickets 10 rows up from the ice between the red and blue lines. So awesome.
While we were dating, I took W to a Stanley Cup game against the Mario Lemieux Penguins. And during the warm-ups, while my attention was watching the Stars, one of the Penguins flipped a puck up into the crowd. It hit W on the bridge of her nose. Does it reflect poorly on me that all I could think to ask her was "did you catch the puck?" (she did not. )
Originally Posted By: TSquared2
And there is this thing called "Minnesota Nice"... I never liked it much because I prefer blunt truth, always knowing where things really stood. It sometimes felt a wee bit disingenuous, know what I mean?
I'm somehow "hearing" it a bit in your responses, maybe I'm wrong.
I understand that things like board postings and emails are difficult to interpret without seeing the author. So I purposely try and use polite, appreciative writing. I do not intend to come off as disingenuous.
Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Anywoo...
Quote:
"Actions vs. feelings"? I really have so little contact with W that I don't have the opportunity for either.
I disagree, you don't need to have contact with W to think, feel or act forgiving. Do you need contact with God to believe, think and act as a faithful religious person?
[quote]I am a turtle. I am slow to initiate change. So yes, I dislike change not initiated by me.
Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Boy, MLC sure does through a metric ton of change on your life, huh?
Do you like this about yourself? There are qualities I have that are very, very beneficial to some areas of my life, such as work, but in other areas, not so much...
I do like this resistance to change trait about myself, bc it separates me from most other people, who are caught up in the race. My patience and willingness to wait before making a decision, plays well with my use of DB though. And yes, W's MLC caused me to question everything in my life, including my faith. But that's a story for another day.
Originally Posted By: TSquared2
Is this aspect of you, disliking change, being slow to change, something that is working for you in all areas of your life?
(you knew this was coming...) What about change do you fear?
What is "change" to you?
Could you maybe re-frame in your mind, what change is really is?
Asking about 'change', and why I dislike it and maybe even 'fear' it, again raises the issue of faith for me. I think God puts people in the place where we are for a reason. And until I see what God is doing, I'm going to stay where I am. So I see that most desire for change I think is motivated by fear, instead of faith, and should therefore be avoided.
My W is a good woman. But she did not fully understand my desire to wait things out to see where God wanted me to go, or what He wanted me to do. I understand that my W is more rational than me on this.
So now looking back at the foreclosure of our family home, I view it as a blessing, though it broke our family apart. Bc W had so many cats, the home was filthy and unhealthy. It hurt my health, and it hurt our d17's health. And by losing our home, not only did it get us out of that mess, it eventually forced W to end her job as a cat breeder, which again I think is a good thing.
So where was I going with this? Oh yes, I think that change can be viewed as being completely different with the benefit of time. I'm hoping my W's leaving me will be viewed differently with the benefit of time.
BTW, T^2 someday soon, I am going to ask you some questions about your choices. I went thru a good portion of your 19 threads, and it was a really compelling story. When you wrote that you decided to separate on March 19th, I wept. Thanks for sharing it with us.
So I see that most desire for change I think is motivated by fear, instead of faith, and should therefore be avoided.
Interesting, I could argue that resistance to change is motivated by fear. That we humans prefer consistency, security in the known. That's why strangers are viewed dubiously until proven,for example.
For myself, being honest, I was very habituated and therefore very comfy with my w, the usual course of our R. I am a man of habit, whether good habits or bad, I am consistent.
What I see now, about that comfort, is that it kept both of us stuck. We trained each other in how to respond and react to keep peace, avoid conflict...MN Nice in overdrive I guess.
Until summer 2013, I feared change, I feared what I am having to do right now with the divorce, the finances, etc. I wanted my old life, my "real" W back, go back to what was comfy, known, EASY.
So maybe our mlc-ers changed out of fear, but it is likely that we didn't/don't change out of fear as well. KWIM?
And ask away about my choices, I'm a pretty open book.
Is it possible that this was put before you to open you up to change, that this is Him showing you something He wants you to learn?
Last edited by TSquared2; 11/08/1403:52 AM.
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
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