MLC W Dates, Part V

[Mach1]

asks: “So....what exactly do you define as a happy ending ??"

Whoops, my use of that phrase was, um, shall we say a poor choice? Let’s say “ideal outcome” instead?

Ideal for who....you ? Her ???

Is it merely getting the results that you want ??

Yes, I desire my marriage to be saved, but please don’t make me feel bad about this. I think marriage is an important institution, and best for everyone involved if it is worked on. As MWD has made clear in DR, divorce is likely hurtful to everyone involved. I am not trying to “win” here, I am standing for my family.

I'm not tryin to make you feel bad at all...

Why would you feel bad ?

And I can tell you that Divorce isn't "likely" hurtful to all...

Divorce IS hurtful to all involved...

Maybe you should ask T-deuce which version of himself he would choose ??

Well, he stood for his marriage and family for much longer than I can imagine. He has made clear that his time was well spent, working on himself. I just wish I was talented enough to play in a band, on this, I am envious.
--------------

Personally, I think that admirable part of T2, is that while he started standing, just for his Marriage and Family. What he eventually stood for, was himself. To change things within himself, that would allow a new relationship to forge for the future....his future. And whether or not his current spouse was a part of that, was yet to be determined...

And he lived on Faith, that things would work out the way they were supposed to, not just the way he hoped it would.

And THAT allowed him to make the choices for himself, and his boys down the road...

Now THAT, is inspirational...

So, I am going to take you back to some seemingly basic questions here..

Do you Love her ???

I absolutely love my W. I am here on this board and using DB principals as best I can for the past 4 months. My withdrawing from contact with my W is the best way I can show love for both of us.

I realize that you are fairly new at this..

IF, she is MLC, at 4 months ? You can still smell the gunpowder from the starter's pistol....

Google....Chinese Bamboo Tree...

And let me know what you come up with there....

What does Love mean to YOU ( not counting your role within a relationship) ??

Love is a verb, not just a feeling in our hearts. Love involves a committed relationship. Love seeks the best for the other person’s needs and desires, while also respecting the other areas where there is not an agreement (not insisting on one’s own way). Love needs to have both people give and take for it to work in a committed relationship. Growth, making each other better people, and no matter the trial, having another person there with you are all of the benefits included with love. FWIW, this is not just marital love, I have this with a number of my male friends and family members also.

I read that too , Wet...

I wanna know how YOU describe it....

What is the difference between Love and Obligation to you ??

Obligation is a duty that is owed. In love (excuse my flight of fancy here), while with love there is light and joy in the actions. When I give something to the person who is loved where it is something they would appreciate is enough to make my day, and causes me to want to do other things/actions that they would appreciate.

So, is there Love within Obligation ??

Obligation within Love ??

WHERE is that line for you ???

You stated that you loved your spouse, yet in your daily life, was there obligation more than love ?

Love more than obligation ?

I see your "judgement" on a couple levels here...

And that is why I keep asking you about it, and asking you to be aware of it.

Because I don't think that you see it, or maybe you do see it, and choose to ignore it (which is way worse)...

I think we are stepping into an area involving my faith. And central to my faith is Grace and Mercy, because I have been forgiven for so much, I am able to show Grace and Mercy to others. I accept that my W is in process, and on her own journey. I am giving her space not only to save me, but to let her grow into the woman that results for her choices.

I have only expressed any sort of judgmental attitude only one in the past 6 months of my M. And this is when before my surgery my W had told our d20 of her r with an OM. I expressed my “judgment” bc W’s actions were now hurting our children, I told her this was disrespectful to me, and that she was in an adulterous relationship, which should not be shared with our children. All other times I have been arm’s length friendly with her, PMA, and I’ve otherwise done no sort of pursuing.

I know that I have pointed out judgement from you on three occasions since you have been posting (all on your part IV thread), and I can go back and show them to you if you like...

So once again, I see judgement even in what you wrote above^^

You are standing on the Faith soapbox...

You say that you were forgiven through Grace and Mercy, and you say that you have shown Grace and Mercy, yet you did not mention that you showed any forgiveness....

Have you ???

Your words, at times, say that you are not judgmental, yet at several interactions with her, when you had the chance to show something new, you chose to show guilt and judgement towards her for her choices.

What also comes with that, is showing her that you are superior to her, just because your choices are different.

Are you superior to her ??

Why do you show that to her ???

An MLCer can smell judgement from a mile away...

I would guess that it is the thing that most of them fear the most....judgement for their actions.

What exactly, is YOUR prize here ???

I know the correct answer here is ME, I am the prize. But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.

Well, that certainly is the textbook answer.

I am not convinced that God gets to involved with affairs of the heart. I think that he has given us free will, and that he puts things, people and situations in our lives that teach us the lessons that we need, not just the ones that we want....

So, I do believe that God gives exactly the problems that we need, in order to fix ourselves....

But that's just my take on things...

[Wet]

I see the gears turning. I think that it might be useful to think about these a bit more and re-read them a little later, Wet. Say, a year from now.

Wet: I am feeling like a little fishy surrounded by three veteran Sharks (AJ, T^2, and Mach1), and the sharks smell blood! I know you guys are good and helpful, but dang you can also be intimidating at the same time.

So just a few light questions:

So there is nothing "light" about your q's. They are usually spot on and thoughtful.

I realize you re-worded it later, but let's be honest, you do want a happy ending to your story. And it is no surprise that you see the dangers in divorce. The dangers to your family. The family that you fought for so many years for.

While you're thinking - Do you think it's possible to have a happy ending to your story? Be honest with yourself.

OK, keep using "happy ending", but every time I see it, I'm going to giggle. I really don't know if a 'happy ending' is possible. I know the long odds, with a W who is determined to get away from the marriage. I find that having hope hurts my detaching from the sitch. So right now I really don't think about W or the possibility of ever getting back with her. But with the 3 Shark's questions, it is helping me to remember that DB can work. For this I am grateful.

But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.

And I'm curious about this one. When you pray for your W - is it for her? Are there also others you pray for? What does forgiveness look like to you? What are the actions vs. the feelings?

My prayer for my W is evolving. I started praying for W to come back. But over the past month I pray for W to return to God, and to not have a casual view of sin. Oops, my judgmentalism is showing again. I pray for many people in my life, including those on this board.

On forgiveness, I am not ready to forgive yet. But I'm working on it. I understand its importance, and again this is a process. "Actions vs. feelings"? I really have so little contact with W that I don't have the opportunity for either.

I do think you highlighted something - your dislike of change. I wonder is it dislike of change or change you didn't initiate?

I am a turtle. I am slow to initiate change. So yes, I dislike change not initiated by me.

How's the rehab going? Getting healthy?


AJ

Thank you for your concern. It is slow. And I put on 5 lbs of the 10 lbs I initially lost. But I'm starting to feel well enough that I am considering getting back to exercising. I am already going for walks, and regaining some of my strength.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

If you cannot handle 3 vets, then your wife is going to eat you up. : )

[Wet]

LOL, thank you Jack. And I do appreciate the help.

[uRworthy]

Ok, those three are friends of mine...so, I get to giggle at the term..."The 3 Sharks" LOL!

[kat727]

Those guys really got you thinking. Good for them and for you. Something I didn't get for a while is that forgiveness is for yourself. I have forgiven ex, his affair partner but mostly myself. Why me you ask? Well, I was pretty hard on me and looked at myself first when this happened. I became whiny and clingy and miserable. Probably pretty normal reactions but I needed to forgive myself for being that way.

I know that ex had a hard time letting go but was also cake eating when it came to me and her. I was led to believe there was hope because I wanted to believe it. In reality from day one he said he would leave me and the kids for her. He never waivered on that. I forgave him the pain he caused because I don't think that was his intent. He couldn't see how to bring happiness to himself so he went searching for it outside.

I forgive her because she was in a place of pain as well and her intent was not to cause me pain. Did all of this hurt? Of course it did but forgiveness for me allowed me to let go of so much of it. I don't condone what they did but I let it go.

With your wife it was not her intent to hurt any of you but to live her life on her terms, to find out what she thought she might have missed. She feels that she should have had a better life somehow.

Now when you pray for her, I suggest that you pray she finds peace for herself, that the pain in her life goes away and that she finds that she can do all that she wants in life.

What you pray for yourself and what you pray for her may not match up, because you both don't want the same things right now. That's ok. Hopefully you will come together further down the road.

I am so thankful that I have my four kids. I am thankful to my ex for that. I had fertility issues with all but the last one. I know for him, as an only child it must have been hard dealing with their different personalities and arguments at the same time. However, they have been the greatest gift. I believe now that he was in my life for that very reason.

I hope you can find peace while you are recovering and those 3 wonderful guys are assisting you. I'll check in soon.

kat

[TSquared2]

Ok Wet,

Full disclosure: I lived most of my life in the TC...saw real Viking football OUTSIDE, the Stars played hockey where they belonged...North, etc., yahsureyoubetcha, dontchaknow?

And there is this thing called "Minnesota Nice"... I never liked it much because I prefer blunt truth, always knowing where things really stood. It sometimes felt a wee bit disingenuous, know what I mean?

I'm somehow "hearing" it a bit in your responses, maybe I'm wrong.

Anywoo...

"Actions vs. feelings"? I really have so little contact with W that I don't have the opportunity for either.

I disagree, you don't need to have contact with W to think, feel or act forgiving. Do you need contact with God to believe, think and act as a faithful religious person?

I am a turtle. I am slow to initiate change. So yes, I dislike change not initiated by me.

Boy, MLC sure does through a metric ton of change on your life, huh?

Do you like this about yourself? There are qualities I have that are very, very beneficial to some areas of my life, such as work, but in other areas, not so much...

Is this aspect of you, disliking change, being slow to change, something that is working for you in all areas of your life?

(you knew this was coming...) What about change do you fear?

What is "change" to you?

Could you maybe re-frame in your mind, what change is really is?

I really like kat727's thought here:

Now when you pray for her, I suggest that you pray she finds peace for herself, that the pain in her life goes away and that she finds that she can do all that she wants in life.

That's pretty much how my prayers for stbxw have changed since I've moved on.

[Wet]

[quote=Mach1] asks: “So....what exactly do you define as a happy ending ??"

Whoops, my use of that phrase was, um, shall we say a poor choice? Let’s say “ideal outcome” instead?

Ideal for who....you ? Her ???

Hi Mach 1, yes ideal for W, for the children, and for me. But only if we do the work. As you write later on, Divorce hurts everyone involved.

[quote=Mach1] Is it merely getting the results that you want ??

Yes, I desire my marriage to be saved, but please don’t make me feel bad about this. I think marriage is an important institution, and best for everyone involved if it is worked on. As MWD has made clear in DR, divorce is likely hurtful to everyone involved. I am not trying to “win” here, I am standing for my family.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad at all...

Why would you feel bad ?

And I can tell you that Divorce isn't "likely" hurtful to all...

Divorce IS hurtful to all involved...

So yes, I want my marriage to be saved, and I think we agree together that it is best for everyone involved.

Maybe you should ask T-deuce which version of himself he would choose ??

Well, he stood for his marriage and family for much longer than I can imagine. He has made clear that his time was well spent, working on himself. I just wish I was talented enough to play in a band, on this, I am envious.
--------------

Personally, I think that admirable part of T2, is that while he started standing, just for his Marriage and Family. What he eventually stood for, was himself. To change things within himself, that would allow a new relationship to forge for the future....his future. And whether or not his current spouse was a part of that, was yet to be determined...

And he lived on Faith, that things would work out the way they were supposed to, not just the way he hoped it would.

And THAT allowed him to make the choices for himself, and his boys down the road...

Now THAT, is inspirational...

On this we also agree. On the likely event that I go thru a divorce, I hope I go thru it in a small proportion of how well T^2 handled it.

So, I am going to take you back to some seemingly basic questions here..

Do you Love her ???

I absolutely love my W. I am here on this board and using DB principals as best I can for the past 4 months. My withdrawing from contact with my W is the best way I can show love for both of us.

I realize that you are fairly new at this..

IF, she is MLC, at 4 months ? You can still smell the gunpowder from the starter's pistol....

Google....Chinese Bamboo Tree...

And let me know what you come up with there....

Yes, I have been DB'ing only for 4 months. But my W is going thru MLC for 2 years now. The 'Chinese Bamboo Tree' is a great reminder of the length of the process I am up against.

What does Love mean to YOU ( not counting your role within a relationship) ??

Love is a verb, not just a feeling in our hearts. Love involves a committed relationship. Love seeks the best for the other person’s needs and desires, while also respecting the other areas where there is not an agreement (not insisting on one’s own way). Love needs to have both people give and take for it to work in a committed relationship. Growth, making each other better people, and no matter the trial, having another person there with you are all of the benefits included with love. FWIW, this is not just marital love, I have this with a number of my male friends and family members also.

I read that too , Wet...

I wanna know how YOU describe it....

How do I describe 'Love", yes, commitment to the relationship is key, foundational, central to everything. What does the action of love look like? It is when my thoughts focus on the other's needs and desires before my own. I need to work on this.

What is the difference between Love and Obligation to you ??

Obligation is a duty that is owed. In love (excuse my flight of fancy here), while with love there is light and joy in the actions. When I give something to the person who is loved where it is something they would appreciate is enough to make my day, and causes me to want to do other things/actions that they would appreciate.

So, is there Love within Obligation ??

Obligation within Love ??

WHERE is that line for you ???

You stated that you loved your spouse, yet in your daily life, was there obligation more than love ?

Love more than obligation ?

I really do not view loving my W as involving any forced obligation. I think the problem that I did have when we were together is prioritizing my handling of my work with my W's desire for more money coming in. And with our home having gone thru foreclosure, she was ultimately proven right. I was too slow in seeing the need to make changes in my work situation.

I see your "judgement" on a couple levels here...

And that is why I keep asking you about it, and asking you to be aware of it.

Because I don't think that you see it, or maybe you do see it, and choose to ignore it (which is way worse)...

I think we are stepping into an area involving my faith. And central to my faith is Grace and Mercy, because I have been forgiven for so much, I am able to show Grace and Mercy to others. I accept that my W is in process, and on her own journey. I am giving her space not only to save me, but to let her grow into the woman that results for her choices.

I have only expressed any sort of judgmental attitude only one in the past 6 months of my M. And this is when before my surgery my W had told our d20 of her r with an OM. I expressed my “judgment” bc W’s actions were now hurting our children, I told her this was disrespectful to me, and that she was in an adulterous relationship, which should not be shared with our children. All other times I have been arm’s length friendly with her, PMA, and I’ve otherwise done no sort of pursuing.

I know that I have pointed out judgement from you on three occasions since you have been posting (all on your part IV thread), and I can go back and show them to you if you like...

So once again, I see judgement even in what you wrote above^^

You are standing on the Faith soapbox...

You say that you were forgiven through Grace and Mercy, and you say that you have shown Grace and Mercy, yet you did not mention that you showed any forgiveness....

Have you ???

Your words, at times, say that you are not judgmental, yet at several interactions with her, when you had the chance to show something new, you chose to show guilt and judgement towards her for her choices.

What also comes with that, is showing her that you are superior to her, just because your choices are different.

Are you superior to her ??

Why do you show that to her ???

An MLCer can smell judgement from a mile away...

I would guess that it is the thing that most of them fear the most....judgement for their actions.

Ouch! Yes, guilty, guilty, guilty. But until recently, my W has shown no fear of anyone judging her actions. She freely spoke to our two oldest daughters of the men she was seeing, and freely spoke of herself as being "single". So yes, I did actions to try and change my W's attitude on this - yes even being guilty of judging her, as you have pointed out.

But my W is pulling back on this. Over the last month, she is not being so open of what is going on in her private life. Which helps me to pull back so that I no longer feel the need to deal with my W. I am in process of not trying to deal with my W at all, except for our children. My s13's grades came in today, and he did well. So I shot W an email today thanking her for helping son do better at school.

What exactly, is YOUR prize here ???

I know the correct answer here is ME, I am the prize. But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.

Well, that certainly is the textbook answer.

I am not convinced that God gets too involved with affairs of the heart. I think that he has given us free will, and that he puts things, people and situations in our lives that teach us the lessons that we need, not just the ones that we want....

So, I do believe that God gives exactly the problems that we need, in order to fix ourselves....

But that's just my take on things...

Thank you, and yes I agree with you that God gives us challenges to help us work on ourselves (I'm not sure I would say "fix ourselves"). Right now, I am working on my health. It's been almost a month since the surgery on my neck. My lung infection has come back, but I was able to quickly see the doctor, and now have medication to "fix" this problem. So I'm hoping I can do something fun and active this weekend with s13.

[Wet]

BTW, Mach1, I want you to know that your 11/19/2013 post on T^2's thread was one of the great posts I've read on the board. In case any one is interested it is here: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2400702&page=8

You showed yourself to be open about your own issues. And I see you believe the connection of love and being vulnerable is important.

But the highlight for me was your discussion of trust and forgiveness. Thanks again for your work here.

[cat04]

Love and obligation...

Interesting topics. Something that men and women often see very differently IMO.

Love, to me, a woman, is a feeling. It is something that I can experience without input from anything or anyone else. It isn't something that needs to be reciprocated in order for me to feel it, although it is nice if that happens.

Actions, are then attached to love. And that is where the confusion can arise.

Some actions, very clearly and easily show our love for someone else. Hand holding, kissing, etc...

Some actions are more difficult to recognize as loving acts, unless they fit in with our love language... gifts, holding a door open...

And other actions...while viewed as loving by one person, are often viewed as acts of obligation by the other person in a relationship...

I picked something out of one of your earlier threads...

Over the last year of our separation (all pre-DB), I started by insisting that she kiss me on the lips, and she would only give me her cheek. I insisted because we are married for so many years, and I am the father of our four children, I should always have kissing privileges. But it was not a very good argument as I never got a kiss from her.

I can't say that I blame her...

How do you define that action...as loving? as obligatory? or as something else?


So I will ask you again a bit differently...

What does love LOOK like to you?