MLC W Dates, Part V

[Wet]

But it seems to me she "asked" you to let her live her life the way she wants to live it. She wants to be on her own and see what it's like, right?

So why do you not like the idea of her having to figure it out? Are you a control freak? Do you feel responsible? Do you have a need to rescue her for some reason?

I don't get it.

AJ

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Thanks AJ, you asked ‘am I a control freak?’ I used to think of myself as the least controlling person in the universe. I let my W do whatever she wanted – from photography, to bird breeding, cat breeding, provide a rescue home for other people's kids in crisis, etc. Her chaos brought fun and joy into my rather sedate life, and into our home.

And my W had a certain ‘light’ to her personality. W would go about doing her mission for the day – volunteering at the kid’s school, making a meal for a friend or neighbor who was sick or had a baby, and lending an extra hand whenever someone in her extra-large family needed help. But she was irresponsible. She kept a messy house (except for the portions of the house I cleaned daily). She is bad on completing tasks, and so I was responsible for making sure kid’s homework was done, that kid’s got off to school and had breakfast, but we would both go together to the kid’s events. This was the life I enjoyed and chose.

But I am now understanding that I WAS being controlling by encouraging my W’s irresponsible life, so that she would be dependent on me. And even now, though she has walked away from our marriage and chosen her own life, I don’t want her to lose her carefree lifestyle. I would hate to see my W get a 9 to 5 job, even though everyone else in the world has one to support themselves, because that is not who she is. But this is no longer my choice.

And yes LT, I get it. I can’t fix my W problems on this one.

Thanks again AJ for helping me to begin to see my motivation for wanting W to be dependent on me, and thereby actually trying to control her. Yikes, this is hard stuff.

[TSquared2]

Wet, you sure our W's aren't twins?

And my W had a certain ‘light’ to her personality. W would go about doing her mission for the day – volunteering at the kid’s school, making a meal for a friend or neighbor who was sick or had a baby, and lending an extra hand whenever someone in her extra-large family needed help. But she was irresponsible. She kept a messy house (except for the portions of the house I cleaned daily). She is bad on completing tasks, and so I was responsible for making sure kid’s homework was done, that kid’s got off to school and had breakfast, but we would both go together to the kid’s events. This was the life I enjoyed and chose.

I'm a left-brain dominant engineer/science type, she is a free-spirited artsy type... I totally relate to ^^^^. It worked for a long time. But after her father died and the kids started moving away from being so "Mom dependant" to independence, something changed in her. And it started NOT working pre-BD, she said she "felt like a child", worried if she could take care of herself if I died, etc.

Thanks again AJ for helping me to begin to see my motivation for wanting W to be dependent on me, and thereby actually trying to control her. Yikes, this is hard stuff.

So the next layer to dig into, is:

Why do you want her to be dependent on you?

What FEAR is behind that?

Because you wouldn't want your grown children to be dependent on you, right? You would want them to be self-sufficient, secure that they can handle life, right?

So why do you want different for your wife, who is a grown adult?

What are you afraid of?

Deep down?

Hm?

[Wet]

T^2, you humble me by visiting my thread. You are the model of db'ing (so called by rH). Your patience, perseverance and thriving after the final d decision was made is inspirational. 19 threads, and over 5 years? Oh Lord, please, not that long!

T^2 asked: "Why do you want her to be dependent on you?

What FEAR is behind that?"

Thank you also for your questions. Why do I want W to be dependent on me? This is simple, in a relationship, a friendship, or even at work, we all want to be needed. Her "needing" me made me feel like I was irreplaceable.

The FEAR part is tuff. Why do I fear losing my W being dependent on me? It has to be bc I feel like W won't love me unless I was there to take care of her. It's funny bc I have a healthy ego, except when it comes to women. Women are my 'kryptonite', if you will allow me to compare myself to Superman.

So one part of my brain tells myself I am funny, charming, intelligent, thoughtful and a really pleasant person to be around. Yet, this wasn't enough for my marriage. I still fear my W finding me as someone who is not worth loving. I guess I'm not facing the reality of my situation - that my W prefers a life without me, and that this could be finalized at any time. As silly as this sounds, something inside me wants to believe that one day all things will be better, and I can start "reconnecting" with my W, perhaps bc I don't believe my W can handle things on her own (and not bc she just loves me). And I still believe this after 16+ months of separation, and there is no movement made toward us even being friends anymore.

[TSquared2]

Her "needing" me made me feel like I was irreplaceable.

So you had some self-esteem/ego/pride tied to her needing you it sounds like. I get that, I did as well. Her telling you, and showing you by moving out, that she doesn't WANT to "need" you anymore probably left a big gaping wound...us guys are genetically wired for that provider/protector role.

So here you are with this big empty space in your ego/self-esteem that W previously filled. You "depended" on her to fill that space, gave her control, because....

It has to be bc I feel like W won't love me unless I was there to take care of her. It's funny bc I have a healthy ego, except when it comes to women.

So is the REAL fear, the core FEAR behind that... do you fear that you are unlovable by women, not just your W, but all women?

I still fear my W finding me as someone who is not worth loving.

Do you love yourself?

If not, why??

So one part of my brain tells myself I am funny, charming, intelligent, thoughtful and a really pleasant person to be around. Yet, this wasn't enough for my marriage.

Some of that is mind-reading...only W knows the real core truth, if even she does... thing is, she may not even know, but just "feels" like this is what she "needs" to do (my stbxw's words).

The important question is... are you afraid that underneath it all, that YOU are not enough?

Do you think that's driving the lingering judgemental thoughts btw?

That's enough for now. I'm interested in your responses.

[Wet]

Talking about fear and whether or not I love myself? Really?! Can't we talk about the Vikings instead?

OK, here goes. T^2, do you know what I really fear most? I fear I'm caught in your situation - where you went thru this for 5+ years, you did everything right, and you still ending up with the divorce. Yes, I know this is why we get GAL, and work on changing us. But I want a happy ending to my story.

Why do I fear losing my W so much? It's not really losing my W that I fear, as I have already lost her by being separated for 16 months. It's losing US, the vision of US with our grandchildren, US over the holidays. US in better years together. Yes, a big chunk of it is our great family which is already split - d20 with me and little contact with W, and the youngest 2 children with W, and d17 having little contact with me. I fear that this split will get even bigger with OP in our lives.

I also fear the idea of ever getting back with my W. She has gone out with over 100+ men (conservatively) over the past 6 months. Who is this person? W is different and I am different too. Deep down, I know that W will be alright on her own, though I wish she needed me. But I don't see anyway we could ever get back together.

So I am sure you see the problem - I am afraid of change and of things not changing. I am comfortable now, and I equate change with bad things happening (June 15, 2013 when I lost my W, my children, my health, and my home was a real bad day). So I need to stop being Eeyore, and start seeing the hope that tomorrow can bring.

Yes, I love myself. I think I was the best husband that there ever was, and I see areas to continue improving myself. When I choose to end our m, I will find someone else (who will undoubtedly be spectacular) to share my life with. I do not fear that I will not be a great companion for someone else sometime down the road.

Why do I have lingering "judgmental" thoughts/actions of my W's behavior? It's a good question (much better than q's about 'fear' ). I have accepted what my W is doing, but I also see how it hurts our children. A continuing prayer for myself is that I ask God to help me to be willing to forgive. For today, that is what I am doing.

[Mach1]

OK, here goes. T^2, do you know what I really fear most? I fear I'm caught in your situation - where you went thru this for 5+ years, you did everything right, and you still ending up with the divorce. Yes, I know this is why we get GAL, and work on changing us. But I want a happy ending to my story.

So....what exactly do you define as a happy ending ??

Is it merely getting the results that you want ??

Maybe you should ask T-deuce which version of himself he would choose ??

Why do I fear losing my W so much? It's not really losing my W that I fear, as I have already lost her by being separated for 16 months. It's losing US, the vision of US with our grandchildren, US over the holidays. US in better years together. Yes, a big chunk of it is our great family which is already split - d20 with me and little contact with W, and the youngest 2 children with W, and d17 having little contact with me. I fear that this split will get even bigger with OP in our lives.

I also fear the idea of ever getting back with my W. She has gone out with over 100+ men (conservatively) over the past 6 months. Who is this person? W is different and I am different too. Deep down, I know that W will be alright on her own, though I wish she needed me. But I don't see anyway we could ever get back together.

So I am sure you see the problem - I am afraid of change and of things not changing. I am comfortable now, and I equate change with bad things happening (June 15, 2013 when I lost my W, my children, my health, and my home was a real bad day). So I need to stop being Eeyore, and start seeing the hope that tomorrow can bring.

Wet, you confuse me...

One one side of the fence, you say that you fear the loss....

Yes, I love myself. I think I was the best husband that there ever was, and I see areas to continue improving myself. When I choose to end our m, I will find someone else (who will undoubtedly be spectacular) to share my life with. I do not fear that I will not be a great companion for someone else sometime down the road.

Yet, on the other side of the same fence, you talk of just replacing your spouse...

So, I am going to take you back to some seemingly basic questions here..

Do you Love her ???

What does Love mean to YOU ( not counting your role within a relationship) ??

What is the difference between Love and Obligation to you ??

What is the difference between Love and Guilt to you ??

Why do I have lingering "judgmental" thoughts/actions of my W's behavior? It's a good question (much better than q's about 'fear' ). I have accepted what my W is doing, but I also see how it hurts our children. A continuing prayer for myself is that I ask God to help me to be willing to forgive. For today, that is what I am doing.

I see your "judgement" on a couple levels here...

And that is why I keep asking you about it, and asking you to be aware of it.

Because I don't think that you see it, or maybe you do see it, and choose to ignore it (which is way worse)...

I see you as a score keeper, or maybe just keeping score now, like this is a win or loose situation. And the way that you defined the above, with your fears to T-deuce, this seems to be all about winning.

So what do you win if you finish this with a ring on your finger still ???

What do you loose if you finish this with a ring on your finger ???

Do you win if you start anew with somebody else ??

Do you win if you start anew with your current spouse ??

What exactly, is YOUR prize here ???

[Wet]

Mach1 asks: “So....what exactly do you define as a happy ending ??"

Whoops, my use of that phrase was, um, shall we say a poor choice? Let’s say “ideal outcome” instead?

Mach1: Is it merely getting the results that you want ??

Yes, I desire my marriage to be saved, but please don’t make me feel bad about this. I think marriage is an important institution, and best for everyone involved if it is worked on. As MWD has made clear in DR, divorce is likely hurtful to everyone involved. I am not trying to “win” here, I am standing for my family.


Mach1: Maybe you should ask T-deuce which version of himself he would choose ??

Well, he stood for his marriage and family for much longer than I can imagine. He has made clear that his time was well spent, working on himself. I just wish I was talented enough to play in a band, on this, I am envious.
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Mach1: Wet, you confuse me...
Yes, I do that to everyone.

Mach1: On one side of the fence, you say that you fear the loss....

Yet, on the other side of the same fence, you talk of just replacing your spouse...

This I can answer clearly. I am facing reality. My W expresses no interest in having any relationship with me. There is no one who will “replace” my W. I am expressing an interest in sharing my life sometime in the future with someone else. Today, I am not ready to do this.


Mach1: So, I am going to take you back to some seemingly basic questions here..

Do you Love her ???

I absolutely love my W. I am here on this board and using DB principals as best I can for the past 4 months. My withdrawing from contact with my W is the best way I can show love for both of us.

One quick, simple example - I called my W this afternoon bc d17 had not responded to an invitation to go to the movies with me tonight. And W had just arrived with d17 to a charity where people volunteer to assemble meals to help the poor in other nations. I love this about my W, her self-giving, and willingness to help others. That part of her is still there, and intrigues me enough to continue standing for my m.


Mach1: What does Love mean to YOU ( not counting your role within a relationship) ??

Love is a verb, not just a feeling in our hearts. Love involves a committed relationship. Love seeks the best for the other person’s needs and desires, while also respecting the other areas where there is not an agreement (not insisting on one’s own way). Love needs to have both people give and take for it to work in a committed relationship. Growth, making each other better people, and no matter the trial, having another person there with you are all of the benefits included with love. FWIW, this is not just marital love, I have this with a number of my male friends and family members also.

Mach1: What is the difference between Love and Obligation to you ??

Obligation is a duty that is owed. In love (excuse my flight of fancy here), while with love there is light and joy in the actions. When I give something to the person who is loved where it is something they would appreciate is enough to make my day, and causes me to want to do other things/actions that they would appreciate.

Mach1: What is the difference between Love and Guilt to you ??

Love and Guilt? I’ll try – guilt is a consequence for actions where someone is hurt, for something that was done or left undone. Love is action to further a committed relationship.
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Mach1: I see your "judgement" on a couple levels here...

And that is why I keep asking you about it, and asking you to be aware of it.

Because I don't think that you see it, or maybe you do see it, and choose to ignore it (which is way worse)...

I think we are stepping into an area involving my faith. And central to my faith is Grace and Mercy, because I have been forgiven for so much, I am able to show Grace and Mercy to others. I accept that my W is in process, and on her own journey. I am giving her space not only to save me, but to let her grow into the woman that results for her choices.

I have only expressed any sort of judgmental attitude only one in the past 6 months of my M. And this is when before my surgery my W had told our d20 of her r with an OM. I expressed my “judgment” bc W’s actions were now hurting our children, I told her this was disrespectful to me, and that she was in an adulterous relationship, which should not be shared with our children. All other times I have been arm’s length friendly with her, PMA, and I’ve otherwise done no sort of pursuing.


Mach1: I see you as a score keeper, or maybe just keeping score now, like this is a win or loose situation. And the way that you defined the above, with your fears to T-deuce, this seems to be all about winning.

I am a competitive person, so you may be right. But I really am not tied to a particular outcome here. My W has chosen her path, and I can do nothing to help her along her path. One point on my expressed “fear” of other women, which I should clarify is that I have only been with one women in my 52 years of life, and so the idea of being with someone else right now is not something that is appealing to me. I would prefer, and I hope that I can end my days being with just my W. But I like relationships too much, and if a divorce happens, I hope that I can find someone to share my life with, and appreciate them for who they are.

Mach1: So what do you win if you finish this with a ring on your finger still ??? Do you win if you start anew with your current spouse ??
What do you lose if you finish this with a ring on your finger ???

]As I stated earlier, I think everyone in my family wins if we work through this and work on our marriage. If we put in the work, together. If my ‘ideal outcome’ does come about, I would be excited to see if the new me and the new W could have a wonderful, loving r.


Mach1: Do you win if you start anew with somebody else ??

If a divorce is in my future, yes, a new relationship will perhaps be a win, maybe a loss, but more of what this journey of life is all about. I am assured of no outcomes in future relationships, as my current separation has shown me.


What exactly, is YOUR prize here ???

I know the correct answer here is ME, I am the prize. But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.

[Wet]

BTW, Mach1 I really appreciate the time you have taken in reading my thread, and formulating your really (too) difficult questions. You have a wonderful heart in wanting to help us here. So again let me say - thank you.

[AJM]

I see the gears turning. I think that it might be useful to think about these a bit more and re-read them a little later, Wet. Say, a year from now.

So just a few light questions:

But I want a happy ending to my story.

That caught my attention too. I realize you re-worded it later, but let's be honest, you do want a happy ending to your story. And it is no surprise that you see the dangers in divorce. The dangers to your family. The family that you fought for so many years for.

While you're thinking - Do you think it's possible to have a happy ending to your story? Be honest with yourself.

But right now, my primary focus is my W, and helping her coming thru her MLC by using the most powerful weapon on Earth – prayer.

And I'm curious about this one. When you pray for your W - is it for her? Are there also others you pray for? What does forgiveness look like to you? What are the actions vs. the feelings?

I do think you highlighted something - your dislike of change. I wonder is it dislike of change or change you didn't initiate?


How's the rehab going? Getting healthy?


AJ

[Lifes Twists]

Hi Wet,

I had many of the same fears you have about split family and loosing contact with children. My kids were with wife and I had little to no contact with them when this started. Best advice I got was to give it time and be the best father you can be and they would figure it out and come back. I now have all three girls living with me and visiting their mom two nights a week. They can choose to go live with their mother.

Do the right thing for your children. Be the best you can be near or far. Eventually the lies will be questioned and your children will return. Stop hoping and dwelling on a fairy tale and live for today, your children, and yourself. Stop showing fear.