Mozza (3)

[jim0987]

Its dangerous ground for sure. I would guess that we shouldn't do anything to assuage their guilt - its theirs to deal with.

[1foot2]

This may not be the proper time or venue for you to express this, but i had a breakthrough of my own last week when i realized that it was important to draw a line around my friends/family with WAW. i stated clearly to her that any anxiety she has about how they feel is her responsibility.

i think deep down your W has no reason to truly suspect that your family secretly never liked her and is relieved to have her gone. an insecurity in her might be telling her to believe that, but its a defense mechanism. i know that deep down my W knows my family loves her, and that it is she who is damaging that relationship.

when the time comes, you should express that to your W and simply repeat it any time she brings it up again. its a boundary!

[sandi2]

First of all, you do not have solid proof there is an A, right? Your child talked about her friend staying over and sleeping on the couch. He may be her gay pal, for all you know. Even if it's not likely the chance, you are assuming things about her that may not be correct. For example, thinking she would be on a high. Even if she is in an A, every day will not be like a trip to Disney Land. When the reality of her choices begin to hit her in the face, she won't like the experience. Guess who is her target of her bad mood? You are, of course, b/c you are the problem of everything wrong in her life!

Her email is clearly baiting you into more of the spew. Why should you reassure her of your family's feelings? Most in-laws do not strive to be best friends with the one who hurt their loved one. Or they may not be sure how to approach her, since she was the one who left. Most families accept the new in-law simply b/c they have M into the family. A few of us may have been fortunate enough to be friends before, or even after, the family became "legal", but I wouldn't say it should be expected to remain the same after a S/D. She should be old enough to realize that is part of the fall-out of broken marriages.....it causes broken families (and extended families). But then, that would require her to be use some logic part of her thought process, which seems almost impossible in her state.

I would suggest you not respond when she's on a rampage, or snarky moods (of sorts). Trust me, during these times, there is no win for you!

Ahoy is absolutely correct. Your W is a big girl and she needs to put on her big girl panties. Don't volunteer to change her emotional diaper when she is angry at the results of her choices.

[Ahoy]

DO. NOT. DO. IT.

Really. You will be sorry if you go down this path with her. She will say things that will cause you more pain. She will make you and your family into the bad guy -- the cause behind all of her poor decision making.

She knows you want to get her back. Trust me. She doesn't need you to keep telling her. Let her think whatever the heck she wants. That is not your problem any more.

Believe this: NOTHING you say right now will make a difference. It could also make it worse. Better to back off and let her sort through her emotions on her own.

[Little]

^^^^^^

[25yearsmlc]

Here are the things I want to discuss at lunch with my W tomorrow. Since she left home on Sept 20, we had one lunch on Sept 30, so these are fairly rare.
She has an OM as far as I can tell, so this is not about reconciliation. To me, this is mostly logistical. She seems happy to see me, probably for cake-eating.


DING DING! Mind reading. Stop it. Besides, why not assume the BEST of our spouse instead of the worst? B/C of expectations?
Expectations are Not the same as assuming good things; there is overlap, but be mindful it and don't do it.

Give them something to live up to, and besides, evidence shows that when we are waiting for the other shoe to drop ("oh here it comes. He'll yell at me and be a jerk and....") that it increases the chances of that happening.

People tend to live UP/DOWN to our expectations when we show them. Greet her warmly and set the tone that way.

Be flexible on ALL but the most crucial of things.


1. Get me onto her insurance to cover my therapy. I'd cover any costs involved.
2. Ask her to park the stroller at the daycare instead of my home.
3. No unilateral decisions when we disagree about the kids. She's done so recently (no to camp, new babysitter).
4. Agree that I will send her back all of her remaining stuff on Friday.
5. Discuss again whether I can have the kids for dinner once during her week.
6. See if she wants to go to the parent-teacher meeting together next week. I do.

I expect most of these things to take just a few seconds to settle. I've no intention to be mean or try to punish her. Still, I don't think it will be all that pleasant for her because she prefers to be in control of every step.


why do you describe her negatively so often? Do you love this woman or not?

Things she might bring up.

1. Switch godmother to her bad friend, Anna. I'll say no. Their relationship is too volatile.

No need to malign her "bad friend" (oh, did you say you were working on Not being so judgmental? Just asking...)

If it's not in the interests of the children, say that. But I'm not sure if it's something you c an do so easily, anyhow. In the Catholic Church, which is serious about God parenting, the God parents have to attend classes and get counseling in the Church. Is anything like that required for it?

But if she pushes for the other friend, and this is not official anyhow, why not let your kid have 2 Godmothers? Also how old is the child?

2. Some arrangement for her birthday weekend. I said no because I've plans but could accommodate a few hours. Want to show flexibility, but not enable new fun life. Can't decide.

Forget it. Your motives are too polluted (don't want to enable her to have fun"????? & you'll be seen as weak. You said "no can do" and if you cave now, BECAUSE she was snotty, she will always expect you to do so, especially when she gets "mad" - and then you are rewarding exactly the behavior that allows for less respect, and respect is a KEY ingredient for love.

(I'm NOT referring to OM!!) She was snotty when you said you made plans. You said you could not change your plans. And if you could not change them before, then don't now...(Did you THEN Offer her a few hours OR are you now saying you want to?)

Bottom line, You made plans long ago, she didn't. Don't roll over on this. And do not explain your plans or why they are "important" to you. They are not important to her at this time so nothing short of getting a new iron lung for you to breathe with, will suffice in her eyes. (Even then she could ask you to re-schedule... ).

Instead, offer to watch them another time b/c you "naturally, want all the time" you can get with your kids...right??

THAT is flexibility without surrender.

NOTE I hate using terms from wars, but could not think of another one atm.


3. Kids' behavior. She struggles, always has. I will listen, validate. I don't think she really wants advice.

Then don't give it. Listen and validate and do not presume she is at fault, per se. You are not there to judge her parenting & besides, you wee not a witness to it so you don't know specifics anyhow. OH- And Credit her for caring about them. Do not attack her mothering. Do not assume she isn't her own worst critic, chances are she is..

4. Divorce? I doubt it but I always fear it.



IF she brings it up, you can say you are "Still processing so much and going thru such a big transition, I'd prefer we table that for now, until I'm a little farther down the road please..."

This^^^ shows you are CHANGING and that you are being very reasonable in asking her merely to "table it for now", while you process things and continue to transition (= becoming the man you were meant to become)

...make sense?


5. OM. Most likely not. Will have to bite my tongue because I want to reply "Yeah, I've known for a while."

Thoughts?

Say Nothing about OM. If she tells you of him, you could say "can't say it doesn't hurt, but you are of course free to do as you will. That's all I really can say now b/c obviously it's painful. I'd like to change topics now..."

Then YOU change the topic to something and pull off your Oscar award winning performance by immediately pepping up with a PMA and moving on to the topic you have pre-selected (which you must do before you see her!) and make that brief and then get the he11 out of there.

ALSO adopt this as a new mantra for IF & WHEN she brings up the marriage.

If she says something negative about it, (likely -- IF it is discussed at all)

And IF you agree with at least part of what she said, You Reply with:

"I'm so sorry I hurt you, W. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

Even if she says something way off base, or that you don't even recall (or that you see differently)

IF she says it hurt her, you make a similar reply to that, as above.

E.g., "Wow, that's not how I recall it at all, but I'm sorry you were hurt. If I had it all to do over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."

Both replies ^^ show change on your end, & awareness that change in YOU was needed. Neither reply is you being a doormat AND neither reply escalates things.

That^^^^ phrase became my mantra, and it helped me a lot.

Perhaps your goals for the talk, instead of all those above, could be the following:

1) LISTEN and gather "intel" from w. What bugged her the most or is now, what are her goals, etc. Not from you probing but from what she offers to tell you.

2) to express the desire you have for the above listed items, but showing flexibility ---and before you meet her, KNOW what is truly not negotiable to you. And don't let that small list become a long one...be flexible about almost everything.--


3) GOAL #3... have a conversation with w that includes at least one authentic compliment FROM YOU TO HER, without any expectation of reciprocity or gratitude. Your goal is delivering the message, not getting one back.

and

4) having the conversation NOT escalate.

Show her that you two can talk without you guilting her or shedding tears. By being more relaxed around her, she'll come to feel less threatened by these talks.

* Achieve these^^ and call it a "Great Day". It's progress.

Discussions of OM are not in your interest, in my opinion. IF she is still hiding him, that is far better than her saying "Oh btw, I LOVE OM way more than I ever loved you...in fact, I never did love YOU and OM is so wonderful and perfect and far better than you ever could be. He is my soul mate and first REAL love and...blah blah blah."

I'm one of those who thinks the WAS NOT admitting an affair actually helps the situation b/c in my opinion it means they are not ready to go public with it. The more public they are with OPs, the more resolute they are and that does not bode as well for an eventual reconcialiton.

Make sense?


Finally, When she says something emotional "I am sad/angry" you can then express interest AND concern. Here are examples for when she expresses a negative
NOT directly related to YOU:

"Sorry you're sad/mad, w, can you elaborate on that?"

"I can see that. Yes it sukks. How can I support/help you?"

"That's tough. Yes that is hard to deal with. I hate it when that happens too."

If it's about you, see the replies listed above about changing things if you had it all to do over again.

Any chance you can thank her for waking you up b/c MAYBE, before hand you were more of a spectator in life and not enough of a participant. So yes, you are grateful for this despite all the pain b/c there is growth from that pain.

SIDENOTE (Anyone else wish we could learn MORE from great experiences and not have to endure horrifically painful ordeals, in order to grow?
For instance, why won't God let me win the jumbo lottery, and test me that way? I promise not to be a jerk.)

Good luck Mozz.

[gogofo]

25yearsmlc

Every time I read one of your threads I learn so much, not matter what point my situation is in.

My W is having big issues with forgiveness and expresses feeling angry/mad when reviewing how our marriage was to how I am now. i.e. not romance, not helping much around the house, not feeling respected, etc.

We seem to get going and then a bad memory derails us, and I don't know what I can do, if anything, to help. I feel at a loss in our progress.

Mozza, sorry for the hijack.

25 pretty much lays out is easily understandable terms how to interact with your spouse. I would recommend read and reread her advice. I have read it multiple times and am still learning.

[Mozza]

Wow wow wow. I'm so impressed and grateful for the advice I get here. On the family email, you guys really pulled me off a cliff. I was going to respond if so many of you with so much experience didn't think it was a bad idea.

I will read and re-read all that you've posted here and react in due time. Much GAL-ing in the meantime. Thank you so much.

[Mozza]

Now the bad news.

She called me. Or rather, she texted me and we scheduled a call. Here's what we discussed. It lasted about 20 minutes. I was walking outside, she was somewhere inside.

1. She's puzzled that I take a long time to respond and sometimes don't even respond. I told her I was busy and that there was no intent in the delays. Sometimes I felt there was nothing to reply or didn't know what to say. She said she's disappointed communication is so minimal between us because she was hoping we'd be better at it, considering we have the kids. She said we'd be in talks for the next 13-15 years and that the teenage years wouldn't be easy either.

2. She asked about my mood, getting through the separation. I said I wasn't ready to discuss it much, but volunteered that it had been a difficult time but that I had realized that I needed to pick myself up. There was a silence at the end and I didn't ask her how she felt.

3. She really wanted to know what I think about my family and friends not contacting her. I said I had taken stock of her emotion but had nothing to say. She insisted to discuss the "fact" that they don't contact her and I said I thought they might not know what to do. She brought up the fact that she called my parents but they weren't there and never returned her call even though they have the call display tech. I told her they don't use it. She was skeptical but had to let go. I talked to my parents afterwards and I'm right: they didn't know she called.

4. I told her about the stroller parking at the daycare. She resisted more than I had anticipated. She really wanted to drop it off at my place. Her excuse was the strollers can't be locked at the daycare and are exposed to rain. I explained that the other parents do it anyway. Also, I told her I'm not comfortable with her daily visits to my apartment, where she can snoop. I told her it's uncomfortable knowing she will drop by. She said she was disappointed we couldn't keep helping each other like this.

5. She insisted on having me promote their international heritage to the kids. We're in my country and she has several nationalities. I said I was ok with this and probably went too far when I said "Years ago, I married a mixed-heritage woman, so you've got the right guy." It sounded to much like "I love you" to me.

6. We discussed the transfer of her remaining stuff from me to her on Friday. I told her I'd try to find everything and that she should send me an email if she thought of something. She said it would be hard to do from a distance. I told her I'd do my best to pack everything.

7. I told her we needed to make more joint decisions for the kids and explained why I think D6 need to go to the 3-day camp. She listened and "nodded" but I realized only afterwards that I didn't get her formal approval. I'll have to email her. She seemed distracted.

8. She insisted that email didn't work for her because she's too busy at work. In fact, she had some panic attack last week because of the pressure. She prefers calls and meetings. I only said I had already agreed to meet. I held my tongue from telling her that she can respond outside of business hours...

9. She brought up the fact she wanted to discuss the kids' education at some point because she's "not going to stay in this country for the rest of her life" (we live in my country, she's a foreigner). I said it was not for now, not for the next few months. She agreed.

10. At the end, she said it wasn't clear if we needed to meet on Monday after all, since I didn't seem all that interested. At some point though I had told her, quite formally: "I want to see you" -- here it sounds more direct, but it was more like "I'm not trying to avoid you" in the context. My mind reading says that she didn't like our conversation just now so she didn't want to have more of it on Monday.

General assessment: She probably feels rewarded that she asked for the phone call because she got way more information than in the last few weeks. I held my own somewhat, but given the advice above to keep shut, I probably said way too much. Overall, I'm deflated. I'm letting her comment about "next 13-15 years" affect me way to much. She often pushes the idea that it's really over between us. I don't know if she's trying to push my buttons, but I avoid taking the bait.

Hope I did well!

[25yearsmlc]

Its dangerous ground for sure. I would guess that we shouldn't do anything to assuage their guilt - its theirs to deal with.

No one said to assuage it, but make no mistake, guilt will never get a spouse home to stay.

Often the guilt morphs into resentment of the person "causing" the guilt. In nearly every affair I know of, involving a woman, (b/c often it's not the same for a man. Sexist or not, that's not just my experience but empirical data supports this and I can explain why, later)---

anyhow... woman having affairs ---, the woman has justified the affair in her mind AND HER HEART b/c of an unmet need in the marriage. Of course there are exceptions but this statement is more or less the "rule".

We have affairs b/c we think we have the right to, not b/c we think it's wrong but we'll do it anyhow and hope not to get caught (which tends to happen much more with men.)

So if I had an affair, (and once, I almost did. So I'll use my thought process from then, to explain)....and if my h got wind of the affair and confronted me --

chances are I'd give HIM a chance to try and make up to me for all HIS failings (b/c for most women, and for me, there's no way I'd have had an affair if he'd treated me well! In MY EYES, my h shoved me into the arms of OM...

so, who is HE to confront ME like I'm the bad guy?

If my h assumed an air of self righteous indignation and refused to own his role, I'd probably have filed for divorce rather than beg him to take me back from my "sins".

The danger to the marriage is greater when a woman has an affair precisely b/c the affair partner is much more likely to mean something to her, than an escort or date of some married man.

Most women who have affairs love or believe they love--their Extramarital partners and THAT is the threat to the marriage; ie., their emotions. If you try to convince them otherwise, you're making a bigger mistake b/c then you are forcing her to cement her emotions and for sure repress any good ones she has for you.

Confronting the wife forces her to choose while she's still very emotionally connected with her "new love," and does not allow her to process all of it and think out the consequences of it.

For ME, when I was sorely tempted by the attentive Kevin Costner look alike at work, who arrived in my life when my h was least attentive to me (his internship year, the 5th year of me doing all the childcare AND working full time, and with at least 3+ more years to go, with unrelentingly long hours....)


When he was home, which was rare, he'd fall asleep at the table or within 30 minutes of arriving home, and not wake up til it was time to prepare for another surgery. FUN! OR he'd be awake but uber irritable b/c of his sleep deprivation.

^^ THAT GETS OLD FAST...and it was years into this that the vulnerability of my life, came face to face with an interested OM.

I became convinced my h would "never really be there for me" b/c his work would not allow for it, or HE wouldn't or whatever. The OM was smart, funny and into everything I was into, or so I believed. OM made or had TIME for me.
I was so very tempted I cannot say for sure if it was ME who stopped me and or the fact that Desert Storm was happening and we were all military and the ramifications of that, and yada yada. But when I approached the line, I found I could not quite cross it.

Only the image of my h and or our children learning that I wanted out of the marriage, and their crushed expressions, along with some other moral aspects to all of this, got me to pause long enough to talk things out, with my dad (strangely helpful!) and then I spoke to a chaplain (a great help) and a shrink (worthless).

SO I stopped myself and kept my vows. No, I did not tell my h about poss OM but I did tell him we needed to make some changes in our life. And we did.

BTW, The chaplain did not lecture me but rather suggested other ways to get more passion in my life without threatening the marriage, like doing live theater. (A passion of mine, and he was spot on with that suggestion).

But in my heart, it was not that my h "Deserved" my fidelity so much as me not wanting to see my kids cry because of me, and b/c I felt that even though h

was too busy, someday he would not be. If he'd been this way without the demands of medical residency training, which is infamous for this, I would not have tried so hard.

If he had learned of OM and blamed me, at that time, I'd have felt unjustly cornered in to a decision and it would not have been to stay married, working my a$$ off for a man I barely saw, only to have him blame me for wanting some attention...I was 30 years old and giving him my best years, more or less being a single mom and a working mom, so

no, guilt isn't the same for a woman having an affair as it might be for a man.

But when men feel guilty they tend to attack, and women tend to flee.


Hope this helps without being too much of a hijack.