Theoden, thank you for the feedback. You definitely make some valid points. I do not believe that I am "niceing" my W back into our M. I have been very firm about my stance on the A. but you are correct, my W has not admitted to the A.
Do I think she is still in the A? No, I do not. Do I believe that my W is committed to our M 100%? No, she is not committed 100%.
But as I reflect on her comments, I have realized that one of the biggest sources of discontent for us was my involvement in martial arts. I was practicing 6-7 hrs per week (included time spent teaching it). Not only was I away from home 2-3 nights per week, but the work of balancing my work, my family and martial arts caused me to be super anxious and stressed, which made life not fun for my W. Since I quit martial arts back in June, my W and my kids have noticed a huge change in me. I am more fun and more relaxed. I am enjoying the day to day more.
I make this point b/c you mentioned that I will slip back into my old ways. I totally agree that I will not be "perfect" but I also do not plan to go back to martial arts. I know this was my achilles heal. My analogy is an addict. I quit my addiction and as long as I don't go back to it, my life will be forever changed.
Finally, I have been very firm that she needs to commit to the M or we need to D. I have met with multiple attorneys and two divorce mediators. She knows that I am serious. She too has commented that she knows a D will devastate our kids. She does not want it either.
However, I agree with you about her denial of the A. I am struggling now with how I want to deal with that. I have a call with my DB coach later this week to discuss this. I don't want my stance to be "I know about the A, you know I know, but you need to admit to it and show absolute remorse if we are to work on the M" b/c I know this will back my W into a corner. And it also could be perceived as me saying "you are the person is wrong not me." Please note that this is not my reacting to how my W has been these past several months, but how she has been since the beginning of our relationship. She is super stubborn. She needs to come to the conclusion on her own that she should tell me and that she needs to earn back my trust. She knows trust is a big concern of mine.
Again, thank you for the feedback. Please do not consider my thoughts as objections to your comments.
Me: 40, W: 40 M: 15, T: 18 D - 10, S - 7 D announcement 6/7/2014 A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W) Still living together and sharing same bed
However, I agree with you about her denial of the A. I am struggling now with how I want to deal with that. I have a call with my DB coach later this week to discuss this. I don't want my stance to be "I know about the A, you know I know, but you need to admit to it and show absolute remorse if we are to work on the M" b/c I know this will back my W into a corner. And it also could be perceived as me saying "you are the person is wrong not me."
Shodan, I think you're viewing this wrong. Your position should be "Look, if we're going to remain in this marriage and work on it together, we need to come to it from a position of total honesty and transparency with each other. I've owned my mistakes, and what I'm doing to change them, but you have not. To continue to look right at me and tell me you never had an affair, when we BOTH know that you did, makes me unable to believe your current promise of 'whatever that was, it's all over now and I want to work on the marriage.' This can't just be all me here."
Theoden brings up many strong, compelling things to think about it, as he always does when he pops by here. I hope you'll think long and hard about them.
Setting aside the whole "remorse" and "admitting the affair" thing for a moment, I want to bring up a third thing that I think is even more important than those two, and that is this: Do you think your wife has shown the proper introspection that would indicate to you that she even "gets it" in terms of how inappropriate her response to your two's marital problems was (decision to have an affair), and how destructive it is to your family?
That "introspection" piece, to me, is the "1(b)" that goes with the "1(a)" of remorse. Unless and until your wife "does her own work" on why she nearly (and still may) carpet-bomb her marriage and her family because her husband was moody and did too many hours per week of martial arts, I don't think it's in your best interests to try and reconcile irrespective her continued contact with OM.
OK so you quit your "addiction". Bravo. That takes a lot of courage and self-sacrifice. If this the THE issue, a lot of the tension should resolve itself.
But do you see how unbalanced this is? It's about YOU fixing it. YOU not being fun for your wife. YOU changing. She hasn't owned up to her small contribution (maybe 1-2%) to your current crisis: her affair. She feels entitled to have an affair because you were less than an ideal husband. And she feels compelled to lie about it even though you know.
Some say in Divorce Busting that you need to pave a smooth road home. In other words, not many demands, no judgement, no accusations, no backing anyone into a corner. You change, you become a better husband, you remove the objections your spouse had to remaining in the marriage, and they come back.
OK. Good so far. What happens when they come back? Where does the rebuilding begin? How does it begin?
Some DB-ers on this forum have paved such a smooth road home that their cheating spouses (those that actually admitted to it) never really demonstrated remorse or really grasped how much damage they did. Their new and improved spouse, fresh from 180's, GAL-ing, therapy, etc is actually the better option than the affair partner. Sure. Who wouldn't want a better OPTION? The operative word here is option. They say don't make anyone a priority who makes you an option. How do you get from being the better option to being her husband for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health? That's the real hard work.
I think you realize it's not just about your wife "re-committing" to the marriage (which often really means, she recommitting to you as long as you are a better option). It's also about your wife admitting the affair and doing the hard work of bearing your burdens and your pain that will enable true forgiveness and reconciliation to take place.
On a personal note, my wife ended her affair (or rather, the OM ended it for her), but never admitted it was wrong. She never asked for forgiveness and never expressed remorse. She didn't even want to talk about it in couples therapy. She felt she was being "judged". She said outright, "My affair wasn't wrong." We couldn't have real reconciliation without it. She said she wanted a strong marriage, but felt an affair was a justifiable option if you weren't "feeling it". Sure she "re-committed" to the marriage, but it was clear I didn't matter all that much to her. Needless to say she became a WAW again and started with OM #2. We are now divorced. I paved too smooth a path for her. Simply put: she wasn't sorry AND she never really came to the conclusion that destroying a family is a bad thing just so that you can feel more romantically alive with someone. Perhaps some people CAN'T be sorry. Those folks might indeed have some form of narcissism operating.
There are people in the DB boards who will poo-poo this position. You might hear, "Would you rather be right or be married?" You can't have a marriage without truth, honesty, integrity and a basic moral compass.
I can suggest two resources that might help.
There's a great book by Janis Spring called How Can I Forgive You? Her argument is that true forgiveness is a shared process if you want reconciliation. She says acceptance is where the hurt person bears the whole burden of the process alone. It helps you move on, but it doesn't seek to reconcile. Forgiveness is where the person who hurt you (or cheated on you) actively shares the process and owns up to their actions. Great book.
Also for a great snapshot of what real remorse looks like, I suggest the article, Real-remorse-or-genuine-imitation-naugahyde-remorse? at the Chump Lady Website. It's under the reconciliation section. It's similar to MWD's advice to people who have cheated -- they need to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to really rebuild trust and show remorse. Maybe not right now. But soon enough. If you make their return TOO easy, they will not value you.
OK so you quit your "addiction". Bravo. That takes a lot of courage and self-sacrifice. If this the THE issue, a lot of the tension should resolve itself.
But do you see how unbalanced this is? It's about YOU fixing it. YOU not being fun for your wife. YOU changing. She hasn't owned up to her small contribution (maybe 1-2%) to your current crisis: her affair. She feels entitled to have an affair because you were less than an ideal husband. And she feels compelled to lie about it even though you know.
Some say in Divorce Busting that you need to pave a smooth road home. In other words, not many demands, no judgement, no accusations, no backing anyone into a corner. You change, you become a better husband, you remove the objections your spouse had to remaining in the marriage, and they come back.
OK. Good so far. What happens when they come back? Where does the rebuilding begin? How does it begin?
Some DB-ers on this forum have paved such a smooth road home that their cheating spouses (those that actually admitted to it) never really demonstrated remorse or really grasped how much damage they did. Their new and improved spouse, fresh from 180's, GAL-ing, therapy, etc is actually the better option than the affair partner. Sure. Who wouldn't want a better OPTION? The operative word here is option. They say don't make anyone a priority who makes you an option. How do you get from being the better option to being her husband for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health? That's the real hard work.
I think you realize it's not just about your wife "re-committing" to the marriage (which often really means, she recommitting to you as long as you are a better option). It's also about your wife admitting the affair and doing the hard work of bearing your burdens and your pain that will enable true forgiveness and reconciliation to take place.
On a personal note, my wife ended her affair (or rather, the OM ended it for her), but never admitted it was wrong. She never asked for forgiveness and never expressed remorse. She didn't even want to talk about it in couples therapy. She felt she was being "judged". She said outright, "My affair wasn't wrong." We couldn't have real reconciliation without it. She said she wanted a strong marriage, but felt an affair was a justifiable option if you weren't "feeling it". Sure she "re-committed" to the marriage, but it was clear I didn't matter all that much to her. Needless to say she became a WAW again and started with OM #2. We are now divorced. I paved too smooth a path for her. Simply put: she wasn't sorry AND she never really came to the conclusion that destroying a family is a bad thing just so that you can feel more romantically alive with someone. Perhaps some people CAN'T be sorry. Those folks might indeed have some form of narcissism operating.
There are people in the DB boards who will poo-poo this position. You might hear, "Would you rather be right or be married?" You can't have a marriage without truth, honesty, integrity and a basic moral compass.
I can suggest two resources that might help.
There's a great book by Janis Spring called How Can I Forgive You? Her argument is that true forgiveness is a shared process if you want reconciliation. She says acceptance is where the hurt person bears the whole burden of the process alone. It helps you move on, but it doesn't seek to reconcile. Forgiveness is where the person who hurt you (or cheated on you) actively shares the process and owns up to their actions. Great book.
Also for a great snapshot of what real remorse looks like, I suggest the article, Real-remorse-or-genuine-imitation-naugahyde-remorse? at the Chump Lady Website. It's under the reconciliation section. It's similar to MWD's advice to people who have cheated -- they need to BEND OVER BACKWARDS to really rebuild trust and show remorse. Maybe not right now. But soon enough. If you make their return TOO easy, they will not value you.
Best of Luck
Theoden
Wisdom. Much wisdom. ^^^
As a classic "pleaser"/"Mr. Nice Guy" myself, it took me more than 20 years to finally learn most of that stuff. I'm STILL learning SOME of it, but at least it's from more of an "unconscious incompetent" standpoint where I'm aware of it and working on it.
To me, it's all about how does each marriage partner respond -- to themselves, to their family and to their spouse -- in times of marital and life crises. Unless and until BOTH of you learn to respond to them in a mature, committed, less-destructive manner and not in the "if-it-feels-good-do-it" mantra of most of today's Western marriages . . . your marriage only stands about a 10-20% chance, in my humble opinion.
What are your efforts? I'm sure Starsky can help you tweak them. There's always hope, and it's never too late to try something new.
It's one thing to pave a smooth road home, but eventually the wayward spouse needs to own up to things and really re-commit to the marriage. Even Michelle Weiner Davis in her chapter on Infidelity in the DR says that the cheater needs to bend-over backwards at some point to rebuild trust. If they balk at no-contact, or remorse, or talking about the affair, or giving details it's not a good sign. Starsky's point is well taken:
Quote:
To me, it's all about how does each marriage partner respond -- to themselves, to their family and to their spouse -- in times of marital and life crises. Unless and until BOTH of you learn to respond to them in a mature, committed, less-destructive manner and not in the "if-it-feels-good-do-it" mantra of most of today's Western marriages . . . your marriage only stands about a 10-20% chance, in my humble opinion.
I have a thread in newcomers, id appreciate you looking at it. ive made a fair amount of "progress" and have a lot of clarity as to my role in the Ms faltering, and how I can become a better partner. But reading your post above, I really wonder if my W is capable of doing the things you mentioned re: reconciling.
M: 33 W: 33 M: 9 T: 10 3 S's: 8, 6 and 1.5 BD: 8/3/14 Living together
I have seen and experienced changes in my W. No, she has not admitted to the A and fully apologized. But on numerous occasions she has said that she bears 50% of the fault for where our M is. She acknowledges that she is horrible at communicating and was sharing her feelings with other people, not with me. She also has acknowledged that some of her feelings towards me were likely just in her head. For example, she pushed me away b/c she assumed that I would do or say X. She is now slowing down and realizing that most of her assumptions have been wrong (she has said this to me). She also said that she assumed that she did things that annoyed me. She said the other night that for the past few months she has seen that those things do not annoy me. I told her that they never did. She just assumed that they did and therefore built up a wall against me.
Further, she is being much more transparent with me about day to day. Where she is going, who is will be with, etc. Again, I don't have access to her phone so one could argue that these are all lies to make me believe that her A is over. But I have seen a big change in her demeanor and attitude.
But, the notion that M require work is a novel concept for my W. She still believes in the fairy tale idea that it all should work magically and spouses should read each others minds. Therefore, she is not in a place mentally to admit to the A.
net-net...little by little is she owning up to things that she did or did not do. She is not sitting back saying "you were the bad spouse and need to do all of the work." She admits to where she has been wrong in the past. For example, she always told me to do martial arts, yet actually did not want me to go. So I went b/c I liked it and I thought she really wanted me to go. She nows admits that she should have been truthful and that her motivation before was for me to "like" her and for her to be the "cool" wife who does not nag. She now understands that we need to communicate our feelings and opinions.
Me: 40, W: 40 M: 15, T: 18 D - 10, S - 7 D announcement 6/7/2014 A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W) Still living together and sharing same bed
