Yes read it and it was a real eye opener. Its back in the pile to reread though.
A lot of it for me is dropping the expectations and covert contracts but having said that I perhaps need to give some more thought to being less friendly.
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
Then respond to your wife with 80% of the warmth she puts out.
No questions, no "how was your day" unless that's where SHE is at.
I know it doesn't feel "natural" but it's not meant to.
You are, for lack of a better description, playing a part in a script. Fake til you make it!
Being too nice, talking about the R--all the other stuff is not DBing. And it will not work for you.
This does NOT mean you need to be distant or cold. I made that mistake at first. It's hard to find the right line to walk, but with some trial and error, you'll figure it out.
Be busy, a bit distracted, a bit mysterious, yet polite and friendly.
Treat her like you would a cousin or a neighbor. NOT LIKE YOUR WIFE.
Right now she doesn't want to be your wife, so this will not help her feel comfortable around you.
Repeat as necessary because it's gonna hurt and you have to get past the hurt and accept that this is your sitch now.
RIGHT NOW SHE DOES NOT WANT TO BE YOUR WIFE.
Maybe one day she will, but if she doesn't respect you, this will probably never happen.
Women must respect and feel confident about a man's ability to stand up for her, and to stand up for himself.
Believe me, she KNOWS you love her and you don't want this. But let her believe that even though this is not what you want, you accept it and you are now living your life as though she will no longer be your wife.
THAT is respecting her position, is it not?
It will show her you are moving forward with what's best for you. And that's what you should be doing.
So if she's friendly and chatty, be friendly and chatty back, about 80%. End first, don't seek her out, but if she approaches you, be available.
Don't let her back you into discussions about the R or what you are thinking/feeling/doing.
It's just a starting point.
As time goes by you'll get a better handle on how she responds and whether your efforts are paying with regard to her feelings.
However, make the changes for YOU.
You said sarcastic and moody? Brooding? Whatever. Work on that. It's not pleasant for anyone to be around.
Be supportive---of the GOOD things she does. Keep the rest to yourself. Her hanging around with cheating wives would not be something I'd support. So best to say nothing, or better yet--make yourself busy by getting out there and doing some personal growth activities for yourself.
You don't need to pick a fight or be rude.
Can't you be polite as you might to a waiter or some other person?
Stop acting like her husband. She has made choices that indicate that's not what she wants.
Well... let her see a bit of what that will be like.
In a nice way.
Yes. BE NICE. But be firm and remember the 80% rule.
---(G)GGG
PS: Oh yeah. And Tony Stark would be an awesome role model. Smart, powerful, determined, and can make a really cool flying robot suit out of some scrap metal in a remote cave in the desert.
So ask yourself: "What would Tony Do?"
Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
She's been unfaithful.........betrayed you and disrespected you in the worst way, and you are struggling over issues of rudeness to her?
Jim, you can be a good man......even a nice, friendly man.......but you are dismissing something so much more important than politeness - - and that is respect! Trust me when I tell you she does not see you as this "nice guy" that you describe. (For the record, I know about the Nice Guy Syndrome.)
I actually married an extremely nice guy. I thought he was the sweetest, most gentle and polite man I had ever met. I had some notion he was the strong - silent type. But after M, I discovered he just didn't have anything to say! He never spoke his mind, stated an opinion, and was a pushover. What I had originally saw as some kind of mature, inner strength, quickly changed, and all I saw was his passivity. I hated how he never stood up to his family, or took up for his W, and let his mother boss our lives. Yeah, I lost a whole lot of respect for him, plus the resentment kept building over the years. So, I can honestly share how a woman feels when M to this kind of "nice guy". I can tell you this much.......she would trade all your polite, friendliness for a take-charge man who would put her in her place if she ever even rolled her eyes at him. Your niceness is not worth a plug nickle if you don't have the respect from the other person! And no woman can respect any man who won't stand up to her. (And she will test him to see if she can mistreat him.)
If you were my son, I would tell you to stop being a nice doormat and stand tall and firm. If you understood women, you would know she has to respect you before she can feel in love with you. And if you still refuse to take a stand, then anyone will be able to walk over you......and they will.....for the rest of your life. When you die, they won't remember you for your nice ways, they will remember you were a push-over. You have to ask yourself how much has your dignity cost?
Btw, Rhett Butler may not appeal to you.....but he sure appealed to Scarlett after he said that famous line. Made her forget all about that Ashlee character.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Yes read it and it was a real eye opener. Its back in the pile to reread though.
A lot of it for me is dropping the expectations and covert contracts but having said that I perhaps need to give some more thought to being less friendly.
Jim; The women advising you are giving you such great advice on a woman's perspective. Please re-read their statements about what is attractive in a man.
Ending you role as a NMMNG Nice Guy is not about becoming less friendly. It is about becoming an integrated man. It is about finding your inner core of beliefs and being true to them. It is about focusing on the big picture of life.
As you know a NG bargins and does covert contracts to try to get his way. An integrated man knows what is right and confidently expects and acts that what is right will happen. Sort of like visualizing success, you visualized and "will" the right thing to happen.
My suggestion is that after reading and re-reading DB and NMMNG, that you read up on self affirmations and self hypnosis to work on your self estime and confidence. You really need to get your mind to that Gone with the Wind point where you can look at your W and say with 100% confidence, that "...There are lots of women who would be thrilled to provide me and my children with the love and respect we need." If it ever comes to that, don't say another word, don't explain yourself, don't threaten her and especially don't do any covert contact stuff that if W does A everything will be OK and you will take your W back.
One of the key roles of an integrated man is to provide a safe and loving environment for his children. That is why he should carefully choose a mate and cherish and respect her prior to starting a family with her. You care about your W. She is acting nuts and self destructive. You don't have to be "less friendly" to her, but you do have to stand up for your children and you, in that order.
Good luck.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Its uncertainty on my part - new territory for me. That's nothing to stand up to or with. She took the last of my masculinity when she rejected me and made me believe it was because I had bullied her.
Can't see how to start coming back from that without out making a scene. I am genuinely nothing to her these days except additional childcare and a barrier to her new fantasy life. Anything I do will just be seen as unnecessary posturing.
Apart from abandoning the marriage she and I are both trying our best for the kids
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
Still mulling this over which is a good thing. I've been so worried by the fact she thinks I'm not supporting her and that I'm mean, manipulative and controlling. That and her continual threats to take me children away from me or ramp up the legal side.
For all my psychoanalysis the lack of respect has been the big issue that got us here - I think all the other incidents may have been resolved or that we would have broken up sooner but at my doing.
I've made a fair offer for her share of the house and agreed an arrangement about the kids ('I want them 100% of the time, and so do you, so please don't expect me to accept anything less than you would be willing to accept.'). When its come to the kids I have been assertive and confident and am getting more so - need to channel that accross. I need to find a way to not give a damn.
I can really see where I went wrong but am struggling to see what to do in the current circumstances.
My reading list has shifted to things like, building self esteem, instant confidence and daring greatly as well as a couple of parenting books. I'm trying to get my focus over to be a man.
Its straightforward man up isn't it?
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
Still mulling this over which is a good thing. I've been so worried by the fact she thinks I'm not supporting her and that I'm mean, manipulative and controlling. That and her continual threats to take me children away from me or ramp up the legal side.
Start here, Jim. A lot of WAW's lay guilt at the feet of the LBH. She will find something to justify her own behavior. It is easier for her to point fingers at you. She's pretty sure you will own that guilt, which in someway relieves her. You worrying about how she thinks of you is the first area you need to adopt Rhett Butler's attitude. Stop allowing her tactics of blame games to work for her. If you shake it off and have a more nonchalant air about it, she will see it doesn't work on you any longer.
As her H, it is not your responsibility to worry about her thoughts, feelings, concepts, or ideas. She is an independent adult who can choose to feel or think however she chooses. You live you life according to your beliefs, value system, personal standards, etc. But you refuse to be her target for all that's wrong in her life. She has to take responsibility for her own happiness.
You say there is nothing to stand up to? I'll bet she shows some little signs of disrespect on a daily bases. You have simply accepted your role as doormat and have become so accustom to it that you have chosen to have impaired vision & hearing.
Women give all kinds of signs of her disrespectful attitude. Just watch her facial expressions when you say or do something. Watch her body language. Listen to her heavy sighs or grunts. Even when she make statements to the kids about their father. It may sound I directive, but it is still a personal hit at you!
Start with small things. When she does something that shows her bad attitude about you......call her hand on it right then. Don't schedule a time for some type of talk or anything. You don't have to make a big issue out of it, but you do have to call her hand on it.
If you have children, never doubt for a minute that they aren't watching and reading her messages about how women are to treat men and how men are to lay down and take it. They need to see daddy in a strong, assertive, role of leadership over the home/family. Right now, they know mom's the real boss and daddy is just one of the kids.
Don't misunderstand, you don't have to be mean & nasty. Just learn to speak in a firm voice that let's her know you mean business. Look her eyeball to eyeball when you tell her. Don't say it under your breath as you're walking away, or wait till you get in the next room and yell it back to her. You stand up, walk over to her and look her in the eye and very firmly tell her you will not tolerate being disrespected in front of your children (or whatever the case). That includes eye-rolling, smirks, and other obvious body messages.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandi, your advice is amazing and I'm incredibly grateful (like so many others you've helped).
I always told the kids 'mummy is in charge' because that seemed like the way to an easier life - otherwise I was always on eggshells. She has been so miserable for so long and I had so much guilt over her dad and the way I treated her over her exs I just let her walk all over me.
She has got really upset by my sarcastic remarks, big sighs, sulking and general passive/aggressive nonsense all because I didn't assertively stand up to her.
Ive been so weak and defensive for so long its a hard habit to break. Not helped by a big long running issue at work that my boss won't let me solve (and I whined about to my W, a lot). Weak, helpless, negative and unsupportive is probably her view of me
Her and her friend have got a little Thelma and Louise about it all ('its us against the world, we just need a real man')
I genuinely feel like it us too late to save my M but that I need to find my backbone regardless.
Right - two posts to follow 1) angry rant to help me channel my Rhett butler 2) some new boundaries
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
This was going to be angry rant to bring out my anger in a more healthy way and here since i doubt i should say any off this but as i started i realised that it was a lot like a scorecard and a lot of blame. Instead i’ve tried to say the same things but remember Coach’s post about boundaries and some of what i’ve read about being assertive
So angry first:
How dare you do this to me and my family.
It is unacceptable to me and the commitments that we made that you would choose an affair over talking to me, That you would choose breaking up our family, giving our children split homes and bring financial hardship on us all over talking to me. That you would confide all of your issues in someone from work rather than talk to me, your husband. And when I tried to talk to you, you would dismiss me as needy and insecure or give me countless other reasons for why you were sad.
Over the last few years I have put up with a miserable wife who seemed to take no joy from anything, was constantly putting up barriers and belittling me. What responsibility did you take for your own happiness? When you said you had no friends – what did you do to make them? who did you contact? It wasn’t me that didn’t answer the phone to your mum. It wasn’t me that didn’t contact your old friends. It wasn’t me that kept turning down offers from Sxxxx. It also wasn’t me that stopped your family coming to visit. You isolated yourself from everyone, me included. When you complained that you wanted time to yourself i said i could take the kids out – you never took me up on it. I have never criticised your ability to mother our children but you have still managed to take that offence from somewhere.
For three years you have rejected my affection, assumed that the only thing i wanted was sex, dismissed my attempts at conversation, and ignored me for large tracts of the day. And in that time you never made any real attempt to work with me on building our relationship – you were too focused on your own misery and resenting me for it. Feeling hard done by because our lovely home was over 3 stories or that you had to work to help make ends meet or that I didn’t give up my career so that you could go and live near your mum or that when you wanted to go on holiday I said it was too expensive to do if we are also going on holiday with your sister next year and to see your friend in new Zealand the year after or that i have a job which means i actually have to go to work.
Yes i made sarcastic remarks, and yes I behaved in nervous and anxious ways and unacceptable ways that would have pushed you away. And yes when i harangued you about your exs it hurt you, but that was as much to do with how they hurt you. And yes I was truly awful on the day your dad died – but you decided that you wouldn’t speak to me about it any more, just because i didn’t know what to do doesn’t mean i wasn’t there for you, this was your assumption. I have apologised countless times for those but had them held over me like a sword of Damocles and meaning I have spent the whole time walking on eggshells as a result. But you know what I managed 12 years of stable and happy relationship without these issues – so what changed? Well for a start you have spent 3 years projecting all kinds of stuff on to me, rejecting me and ignoring me for you then to complain that I acted insecure.
I imasculated myself for you in a desperate effort to win your attention and forgiveness and it didn’t work. Instead you turned your attention elsewhere rather than face up to the issues and deal with them. That is the cowards way out.
I know you haven’t enjoyed the last few years and that you’ve been miserable, believe me i know, but when you decided to break up our family, to have an affair, to betray me, you lost the last of my respect for you. If this hurts to hear, if you don’t believe it, if you are unwilling to accept the damage you are choosing to do to our kids or you want to put it all on me then believe whatever you want because frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.
Right same as above but more constructive:
I understand that you have been hurting for sometime, and you are not alone in that. It hurts and disappoints me that you would choose to break up our family and pursue an affair rather than talk to me openly about what was bothering you.
My happiness is my responsibility and the same is true for you - as much as you may like to blame me it cannot all be my fault and therefore I will not take all of the blame for this. If you can’t or won’t face your responsibility for what has happened then that is your problem not mine.
I would choose to work on our perfectly fixable relationship to provide the home that our children deserve and share a lifetime of happiness with you. But that is not my decision – it requires both of us to work together to face our individual issues and take responsibility for our own happiness and self esteem. I will do my part regardless but please know that the decision here is yours and yours alone. Do not expect me to do anything to assuage any guilt you may or may not feel you must deal with that on your own terms.
Any decisions I make from here will be what I believe are in the best interests of our children to ensure that this does the minimal possible harm to them and I will not support any decision that I do not believe helps them.
Both mid 30s, 2 young kids BD 7sep14 XW moved on long ago, now living with OM1 D paperwork in progress
