Ss, there are many things you need to work on. And you have identified a lot and have been working on them. But his porn problem is HIS problem, not yours. And you can't address that until he has bought in on reconciliation. At that point I hope he would agree that it is necessary to eliminate porn from his life. And that is only the first step in a long journey of a recovery.
I speak from experience. I had a lingering porn problem for years. I blamed my W for it due to lack of sex. "If only she would have sex with me regularly, I would stop." For one, I had the problem from when I was a teenager, long before I met W. Secondly, she did become regularly intimate with me, and guess what? The porn continued. She couldn't fix it. It was my problem to fix. Now you could support his recovery, eventually. My W supported me through a fight against porn years ago and I had my best porn-free period of my adult life (maybe 6 months). But I never really got over it and it came back. It took this crisis to show me how porn played a hand in the destruction of my M. I had convinced myself "What she doesn't know won't hurt her", and I successfully hid it for the last 5 years. But it hurt her (and me) tremendously. It killed our intimacy in the bedroom. It was about sensation, not love or closeness. It's only been a couple of months since I really stopped, but it feels different this time. I hate the idea of porn because M is so much more important to me. But I know I will need to be forever vigilant. And I'm proving that lack of sex is a bunk excuse for porn. I am getting NO action right now yet I am in the most porn-free mindset of my life
Regarding your H, don't even think about that problem right now. I don't know how addicted he is, but some H's (myself included, in the past) fantasize about living alone and not having to hide porn. They think the guilt will disappear, and it will be even more fulfilling than ever. If that is him, he will quickly learn that it will be even more empty than before. That is what happened to me. After she moved out, I thought "well at least I don't have to hide this anymore". It didn't take long for me to feel more disgusted than ever. I found some great porn-quitting resources, learned about just how damaging it is to the intimacy of a M, and I was finally ready to kick the habit. Like I said, with how long I've had this problem (14 years?), it will probably take me 2 years to feel truly free, but I feel like I'm on the way there.
Sorry, spilling my guts a little here, but felt this perspective could be useful for you and any other W of a porn addict.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
Actually our sitch's aren't that far different. There's no clear MLC or OW - though I wonder about both. And actually it was reading your sitch early on that made me wonder if porn had played a role in my sitch than I realised. At some point my H told me he viewed porn every other day. In my attempt to be a progressive, liberal woman I didn't discourage it (though it does bother me to some extent).
Actually I suggested we watch it together sometimes. That was enlightening glimpse into the male brain. We'd be sitting there, I'm reading the news or thinking about something totally different and seemingly out of nowhere H would say "Do you want to watch porn?" Er...no?! Needless to say that only happened a couple of times.
We never did talk about it from the context of - hey, do you think this might be impacting our sex life? I've definitely tabled this for a MC session should we ever get there. I did raise it with IC. She said it was impossible to know what counts as too much use - no reliable studies. Her perspective was that porn damages relationships by making the user over stimulated by visual images. Since real life sex isn't like that, it just becomes disappointing. He stopped initiating. So yeah...we were both left wanting. I'd love to hear what your IC says about it.
And *I AM* an academic so you can see how that plays out for me. Totally with you on wanting to be able to measure progress.
Hang in there. We can do this.
H 37 Me 36 Together 15 years Married 5 years No kids BD Apr 2014 H moved out 2 Jun 2014
ganb8te, I could see your IC's point of view that it may depend on quantity. But it is such a slippery slope. Even if we did have hard data on "how much is too much", why would a best-intentioned H, who is aware of the damaging effects, cool-headedly decide to step foot on the slope at all? I say "cool-headedly" because we make terrible decisions when we are "under the influence" of porn. Here is an example of me slipping down the slope, which has happened many times in the past:
- I'm doing it once a month, that's not bad. - I'm already doing it once a month, so twice a month isn't that different. - What's the difference between every other week and every week? Not much! - Okay, I've already done it once this week, but it's not like one more time this week will make a difference.
It's either that, or I break a porn-free streak once and then see no reason not to do it everyday.
The IC is right - we have no data to show exactly how much is harmful in any given relationship. But we DO know that M harms intimacy when used in excess (whatever "excess" is). So the most foolproof solution is to stop. Not saying it's easy to stop, but it's the best path to choose. Trying to determine how much porn is okay for a porn addict is like an alcoholic deciding how many drinks is too much.
There is nothing progressive about porn, if your goal is intimacy. It has no good place in the vast majority of M's. JMO, though.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
H came over last night and we talked for about 4.5 hours. I did not initiate it.
He talked about how he is trying to find ways to rewrite some of the repetitive "tapes" in his head of me saying things to him that made him feel inadequate. Things like how I always said he wasn't a good traveler or a bad driver. He said that things like that kept him from doing things he has always wanted to do like travel to see the fall leaves which is why he is going on November 1 to NY. He wants to show himself that he is NOT a bad traveler and reframe that sentiment in his head. Same thing with driving and many other things.
He said that in order for him to come back with both feet into the marriage he would need to KNOW 100% that there will be ZERO triggers for him. That things would be NOTHING even close to how they were before.
I told him I could commit to the later but the former was completely out of my control and the standard was too high. !00% is impossible and I'm only human.
He said, "well that's the rub because that's what I have to have".
Okay.
He also said that he has to know 100% that the marriage will work before coming back because once he moves back in, moving back out will be too hard on D and he's not willing to do that so he wouldn't consider returning until he KNEW with absolute certainty that the marriage will be a success.
I also can't make that happen.
He is working on many things about himself. He's holding less in so he has less to be resentful about going forward but he's still holding on to a lot of pain and resentment about the past.
He said there's no way to wipe the slate clean. Just no way.
He said that if he comes back it wouldn't be a day of celebration but a somber day because he'd have to wait for happiness whereas he could just simply be happy immediately if he got a divorce and put a "steak in the heart of the marriage".
I feel like these impossible expectations are only asking for failure. I told him that and he said that he knows that, which is why he doesn't think it'll work.
He also said though that many of the things he's working through are only supporting his desire for a divorce but that he also knows that the night is always darkest before the dawn. Whatever that really means.
He admitted that some of what he's working through has to do with his parents (feelings of inadequacy among many other things), his own lack of self care and then the stuff I did to him during our marriage and the pain of that.
I feel like I'm being held accountable for ALL of that pain. I can definitely be mindful of sensitivities that have developed from his childhood issues and his own, self created insecurities, but I shouldn't be held responsible for triggering all of them. How do I handle that?
I can't reverse the pain he has from outside of our marriage or whatever came before. There aren't many limits to my commitment to getting this marriage back but I cannot fix things I did not break and to be required to is unfair and unreasonable.
After I asked, he said he did see "some" of his role in our marriage demise but he also said he felt like he gave me everything he could but that I let him down the last year by not turning around the marriage as I'd promised.
I told him I didn't know how. That I tried and I was doing what I knew how to do very slowly and carefully but it clearly wasn't fast enough and intense enough to save anything. I told him I was angry that it was my sole responsibility to change the direction of the marriage. He said he'd done all he could and could barely make it through the day over the last year so it could only be me.
I told him that I just wanted the opportunity. Just the opportunity to work on it with him. Totally pursuing, I know, but he needed to hear that and I'm starting to wonder if some of these DB principles just don't work.
He specifically said to me that my up beat attitude and friendliness towards him and his in return was in no way any indication that he was considering a future together or anything other than keeping things cordial for our D.
Great.
I don't know where to go from here. He wants the impossible and I'm supposed to provide it alone and perfectly.
Wow Ss - this seems like a tough day for a lot of us. I'm glad that you realize that he is asking for the impossible. Much as you would like him to come home - I don't think you should agree to any of that.
In any of this discussion was Marriage counseling mentioned?
Ss - you have done a lot of hard self reflection and you seem very willing to acknowledge your issues in the marriage. However - some of the things that you have written lately certainly make it sound like your H has his own major issues. Emailing escorts from craigslist is not a small thing after all.
yes, aliced, I mentioned MC briefly but he said he's not even there yet. That he's not even thinking about the marriage, that he's really working on himself and that it's freeing to not have to think about me or the marriage.
Emailing escorts is indeed not a small thing but we can't even get to the point of working through that yet... he's very focused on what *I* have done wrong and how that has made him into a shell of a man and how much I took from him over the years.
I was not a great wife. Often I wasn't even a good wife. I'm not evil though. I'm not.
Ss, I will try to write more tonight but I'm sorry you are here. There is a lot of WAS script in what he said... and a lot of it shows that it is much more about him and his unrealistic expectations of what marriage is like or means. A marriage where you have a guarantee that your spouse will never say or do anything to piss you off and you will magically be happy all the time?
Yeah, good luck with that.
I think we need to turn this forum into a match making site because at least it is full of people who are trying to have a realistic view of themselves and relationships!! (We could set up the WAS's with each other too, and see how much "better" it turns out for them next time.
You can't save someone from himself... hope this makes sense. (((Hugs)))
Ss, one thing glaringly apparent to me was that there was not one moment about what he wanted to give you in that whole long grueling "conversation." I'm sorry, that wasn't a conversation, that was a ransom demand. Or an extortion attempt. Good for you for doing the hard work of staying calm and not giving him any further ammunition.
You may be in for a long haul. but if he's cleaning himself up now then maybe at some point he will realize what a marriage is really made of and will come to work with you, rather than make grossly unfair demands.
The stars are frowning on relationships today, friend, but that's just today. Hugs to you.
Me42, H40 D12, S8, S7 A revealed: 7/13 Sep 4/14; Agreed to D 1/15
Sorry for the long response. I had a lot of thoughts while reading your comment.
No, you are not evil. He could still be in the early stages of his fog. It could be a very long haul. Look at some of the reconciled M's around here... many went through 1.5-2.5 year S's, most of that time waiting on the WAS to be ready to work.
Quote:
He also said that he has to know 100% that the marriage will work before coming back because once he moves back in, moving back out will be too hard on D and he's not willing to do that so he wouldn't consider returning until he KNEW with absolute certainty that the marriage will be a success.
I also can't make that happen.
You can't, but I'd imagine you guys would need quite a bit of time piecing before a move-in happened.
Do you feel like you have done everything you can so far to address and change those issues inside of you that he speaks of? I'm not asking if you've fully corrected them already, just making sure you believe you're walking the right path. Was anything he said new to the self-change section of your 180 list, perhaps something you forgot about? Don't lose sight of what should be your primary focus right now: YOU. Even D7 is a close second, because she needs a healthy mom, just like a child on a depressurized airplane needs their parent to have their oxygen mask on before the child has their own.
But while you do have a lot of work to do, and you had a large hand in the destruction of your M, you and I all know he played a large part, too. You are correct to not promise immediate perfection, all with only changes from you. He needs to change a lot, too. And that is where DB comes in. You can't convince him of that, he needs to learn it. You can definitely suggest it to him - when he's ready to hear it! You will know when those moments are happening, like when...
Originally Posted By: Ss06
I told him that I just wanted the opportunity. Just the opportunity to work on it with him. Totally pursuing, I know, but he needed to hear that and I'm starting to wonder if some of these DB principles just don't work.
"No R talk" doesn't mean "no R talk ever again". It is "No R talk until WAS is ready". It sounds like your WAH was ready to hear that - it was in the middle of a long R talk that HE initiated. There may have been a better way to phrase it to sound less needy or demanding (ideas anyone?), but I don't think the content of the message was inappropriate in this context.
DB doesn't promise to save your M. It can't. No system or technique can. It does give us a much better chance than most techniques, though. I think when we are in the cold WAS stage (like most of us), it is cut-and-dry: 180, GAL, detach, Sandi's 37, etc. It seems like it becomes more personalized when the WAS initiates R talk (are they still cold? hopeful? angry? positive? remorseful? There is no one-size fits all for R talk with these different WAS's), and then lots of things change with the plan when reconciliation/piecing begins.
Also, from what you're telling us from your convo last night, your WAH is asking for exactly what DB asks of you (aside from the over-demanding expectations of it all being on you):
- Permanent changes in YOU, relating to behaviors and traits that contributed to the demise of the M - Space for him to get out of his fog, to figure out what he wants, to make his own changes, etc.
It STINKS that he still wants that space and is not interested right now in joining you in building the M, but if he's not ready, he's not ready. Nothing you, I, any C, any book or any internet forum can do about that. Maybe he just needs more time to realize that what he's asking is unreasonable, but that it's about progress, not perfection. If you are indeed NOT a monster, then he also has a LOT to realize about what he needs to change in himself. If he thinks you are the problem and killing the M will make him happy forever, then he is doomed to repeat history with his next S. I also don't know what chance you guys would stand if he did come back to you right now with that attitude and belief. At first you might be relieved to have your H back, but he would continue to be disappointed (if he's looking for perfection, not progress) and eventually you would become disheartened. You would KNOW there are things he needs to change but he refuses to. That would quickly get old. Here's hoping he pulls his head out of his ***.
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
