Don't know if I belong here....

[Okabe]

My wife of 18 years (together 27) told me the other day that she "didn't know" if she wanted to stay with me anymore. I had known something was wrong for the past year and had asked if anything was wrong and was always met with "no". She told me this in the context of me talking to her about some recurring issues we've had. She told me she is tired and frustrated and doesn't think I'll ever change if I haven't over 2 decades. I am using some of the concepts in Divorce Remedy and another solution oriented book. I am working on making small goals. The upside is she hasn't left or said she is going to yet. The downside is that she is hurt, angry, and mistrustful of me right now. Just trying to find direction.
Thanks.

[jim0987]

You'll get good advice here.

If she hasn't left yet and your prepared to put the work in you need to then you've got the chance a lot of people would love to have. Make the best of it

[Mozza]

Yes, I think you came at the right moment. You're in a better position than many of us. Keep in mind that it might get worse before it gets better. Get ready for the ride.

[CaliGuy]

I wish I would have found this place early on .. I would have been FAR better off

To answer ... you are in the right place provided you want to have a better M. I would also recommend The 5 Love Languages ... in fact I need to re read a few books now that I think about it.

[Jefe]

Okabe,
Welcome to the boards. Glad you found us, sorry you need us.
Good new is, most people around here would kill for the opportunity to be where you're at right now. Don't squander it. If you truly want help and are truly willing to put in the effort and become a husband only a fool would leave there's a excellent chance you can turn this around. But like Mozza said, it may get worse before it gets better.

1)Find Sandi's 37 rules and read them daily at first and as often as you think you need to.
2)Change your signature line like ours so it reflects your current situation.
3)You are on moderation so it will take some time for each post you make to show up, so don't get impatient with the replies. They'll come, just hang in there. Post in smaller more frequent posts until you get off mod.

You're in the right place!

[Okabe]

Thanks for the replies. I don't have a lot of private access to a computer much of the time. I realize my situation is still better than many. I am currently trying to make sure that it doesn't go from bad to worse. I have been doing a lot of journaling, reading, and exercises in the books I am reading. I realize my part in the problems and stuff about myself that was pretty astounding to me (like how much external validation I was looking for from her and how low my esteem has been). I am working on myself because that is the one thing I can change (although she doesn't believe this). I have been trying to maintain a positive attitude. We still hug and breifly kiss, which I have increased to make sure that is happening when I leave, return, or go to sleep (although she doesn't fully hug back, more business like). I roll over and get close to her when she comes to bed (she doesn't push me away). We've made plans for next summer, but she still is cold towards me. She often refuses invitations to do stuff together (watch Tv or go on walks) and lots to play her video games instead. I am confused. I am trying to do good things, but am getting conflicting messages.
Thanks again everyone for your feedback. I appreciate it.

[Okabe]

Thanks for the replies. I thought I had written something the other day, but it was written on my kindle so it may not have gone through. I am very aware that I am in a better spot than many. I am just trying my best to avoid it from getting worse. I am slowly working on things to GAL. I hadn't realized how much I depended on her for validation of my own self worth. It is confusing: she says she doesn't know if she wants to stay with me and had resolved in her mind that things will not get better yet she is making plans for the future (vacations) with me. She will hug and kiss me, but it is distant (if that makes sense) . I will continue to work on myself and see if things change. It is just very sad and confusing.

[Okabe]

Well, The weekend went OK. I get mixes of smiles at moments and then cold shoulder. I feel like speaking about our relationship at this point would just be a bad idea. I am still working on GAL and small goals (some of which are working, some are not). Will see how the week goes.

[Okabe]

Sorry for the infrequent posts. I don't have good access where I can do posts too often.
It seems to be going on auto pilot at this point.
Pros: She talks to me. Is most animated and conversational when talking about school.
Cons: When I speak about anything it doesn't seem heard or gets minimal replies.
Pros: There are hugs and kisses
Cons: They are initiated by me and seem to be "one way" if that makes sense.
Pros: I can cuddle up to her at night.
Cons: I kind of think this is just being tolerated.

[Okabe]

Sorry for the infrequent posts. I don't have good access where I can do posts too often.
It seems to be going on auto pilot at this point.
Pros: She talks to me. Is most animated and conversational when talking about school.
Cons: When I speak about anything it doesn't seem heard or gets minimal replies.
Pros: There are hugs and kisses
Cons: They are initiated by me and seem to be "one way" if that makes sense.
Pros: I can cuddle up to her at night.
Cons: I kind of think this is just being tolerated.

[Okabe]

Pros: I am getting out and doing a little of stuff.
Cons: 95% of the times I offer to do something with her, she declines.

Not really sure if I am doing the right things or not or if I should change course on a few of them...
Is hugging and kissing a bad thing if it is received and kind of reciprocated? Should I make it less frequent or more random?
Should I not offer to do thing with her and just go and do thing on my own?
Feeling really confused now.

[Okabe]

I re-read "Sandi's 37 rules" and realized that perhaps I am trying to hard to connect with her when that may be pushing her away. It's hard for me to figure out. I know I am in a better place than most here in that the desire to separate has only been met with an "I don't know" and we are under the same roof, civil and mildly friendly.
This is what confuses me.
She said the problem was feeling lonely for too long with me there (although she has very few friend. she lost both a best friend and her mother in the last 3 years). So I react by inviting her to do thing with me and she declines.
She said I don't show enough affection. So I start to change this and it is met with discomfort.

[Okabe]

So am I pushing too much and back off of the changes that she was stating were the problem to begin with? Not sure how to handle that...

[Okabe]

I remain confused on what tact to take. While she has not committed what she intends to do either way.
She makes plans for the future like what our insurance is going to be next year on the one hand. On the other hand she doesn't reciprocate affection that is given or seem to like me much.
I don't know if I should back off and not intiatate things like hugs, etc or continue to do the thing she stated was part of the problem in the first place. So unsure about what direction to take.

[Mozza]

You should consider reading The 5 Love Languages. I'm going through it at the moment and I find it enlightening to understand how to connect with a spouse. It's possible that all those years you've been speaking a language that she doesn't understand. Perhaps you're a gift giver and she wants quality time. Perhaps you're a physical touch person and she wants to hear you say words of affirmation. Have a look at the summary at least and see if it could be of interest.

[CaliGuy]

Okabe

Ok .. dude .. breathe.

She is still there, you said "she does'nt know" .... but if you smother her .. she will run. 180 this .. .no pursuing .. read and live those 37 rules, they are there for a reason as hard as it is to comprehend ... I have been here long enough and have yet to see 1 solid argument that attacks any of the 37 when we start out.

Detach, pull back, GAL ... start there ... you have a chance to really flip this around ... work on you. Being a Needy dude is not attractive ... I know .. I was that guy .. for YEARS

more reading .. No More Mr Nice Guy .. I have a feeling you could find some useful tips there

Pair that with 5 Love Languages, your LL may be physical touch .. but I am not picking up hers is ... hence why it feels one sided with you.

[Okabe]

Thank you both for the replies.

I don't mean to be difficult about this: If I detach and stop initiating affection (which she had stated was part of the problem, me not doing so) won't I just be proving her point that I cannot change? I have read about the 180, but was unsure if I suddenly stop how it will be taken.

[CaliGuy]

Thank you both for the replies.

I don't mean to be difficult about this: If I detach and stop initiating affection (which she had stated was part of the problem, me not doing so) won't I just be proving her point that I cannot change? I have read about the 180, but was unsure if I suddenly stop how it will be taken.

You left that nugget out ... we really need the information here. If that was an issue ... then now you are doing it all the sudden can you blame her for not giving it back .. probably feels forced all the sudden .. ya know?

You do need to detach and GAL .. list up the 180's ... read 5LL

[sandi2]

I join in welcoming you to the board. You are not alone in your confusion about the mindset of a W who has let you know she isn't sure anymore.

Besides lack of affection, what are the other complaints she has made over the years?

Losing a mother and a best friend in a short span of time is traumatic for many women. My mom is my best friend and is quite elderly now, so I know it will be heartbreaking for me to lose her. Most women need someone they can connect to emotionally. If they suddenly lose that person, then they can feel very isolated.

Over time, if your MR was lacking in emotional connection, your W may have turned more and more to these two important women in her life. Their absences have magnified the emptiness she feels in the MR.

My perception of what you've told us is your W doesn't want to hurt your feelings and that may cause her to withhold telling you some things......or, she may not know how to describe to you how she feels b/c she doesn't really understand it herself.

I think you are correct about her simply tolerating your physical affection. She knows what she told you, but now....she can't feel the response she should. That causes her to be confused about her own feelings and desire. With all she's experiencing right now, she probably feels kind of dead on the inside, and that may scare her. It could lead her to doubt her love.

She needs to feel an emotional connection. I hope it will be with you, otherwise it leaves her vulnerable to someone else. Do you have any idea what her emotional needs are? Many men don't have a clue or know what that even means.

We can't tell everything in one or two posts, so be patient while you learn. Be patient with her, too. She is trying to find her way and must feel pretty lost right now.

I suggest you let her initiate the intimate hugs/kisses. You may try other non-sexual touches and see how she responds. If you feel she tenses up when you make any physical contact, then you need to stop for a while.

You will need to learn about detaching. It may sound really confusing at first. It takes some time to get it. It isn't what most newcomers originally think of detaching. (More about that later.)

Another confusing issue for you will be this: What she use to want from you in the MR may not be welcomed at this time. B/c the years of lacking whatever she needed/wanted has done something to her emotionally. It will take a lot of time for her to figure it out. You may feel like a blind man finding his way through the darkness before it's over, IDK.

You may be her target for all her unhappiness for quite some time. Accept the fact that you cannot fix her. You cannot control her or even rescue her. All you can do is become the best man possible. Improve what you know you need to change about yourself. Let this be a wake-up call and give it your best.

Have no expectations of her giving you anything for your hard work/changes/attempts. When you have expectations from her, you set yourself up for disappointment.

[Okabe]

Thank you both.

I probably do need to back off. I tend to be the person to want to fix things, accept fault, placate the situation in order to end conflict quickly. I am probably trying to "fix" things too hard and as CaliGuy said: it probably feels forced.

Other issues have been that she feels lonely even with me in the same room (that I zone out on the computer). The funny thing is I often felt the same thing, but like her didn't say anything. She is an online gamer and I sometimes would want to do things with her (or spend time) and felt shut out. It was like we both wanted the connection, but neither of us were addressing it as we should've.

The affection is tied to sexual intimacy. I would want intimacy and she would want affection and it would never match up. I thought if I just spoke about it it would change, but too often I just made her feel criticized (which was never my intention).

I know she has also been disappointed in me not making plans for camping trips (which she enjoys) unless our friends were involved. This is true, but not intentional. I think my friend just forced me to plan more, but I am sure she felt slighted by my inaction.

I know she feels isolated. She has her online gaming friends which she's played games with for years, but no one besides me for the most part. We did martial arts together for years, but that ended last fall after a bad shoulder injury for her, so that social outlet went away.

I know something was wrong for the past year and asked her many times if anything was wrong, but was always met with: "I'm fine".

She has told me she is tired and frustrated of the same issues and that over 2 decades if there was going to be a change there would have been, and she is just going to have to deal with that I will never change (which is kind of why I was trying so hard as well I suppose).
Sorry for the long response. It may be a little while before I can respond. I hope this sheds a little light on my situation.

[Okabe]

Is there a good thread in the forum on detaching? I would like to understand it better. I'm sure it is in Divorce Remedy but I get such rare opportunities to read it with everyone around.

[MCS]

So, there's some stuff in here on a variety of forums. It's so hard to do early on. It pretty much is not really getting hung up on what she is doing, focus just on yourself. Easier said than done. It took me two months and just last week I think I finally did. For me, I was an emotional wreck for so long since I felt it was all my fault, I then found out she had an equal if not more significant stake in our issues. Then when we started talking again, it was like she was yo-yoing my emotions. I had enough of that and pretty much shut down emotionally from constantly obsessing what the outcome would be. I was really scared it would make me feel like I was giving up, but I can say it doesn't. I would love to make our marriage work, but have accepted that she doesn't have any clue what she wants right now. I still love her, but am realizing that she needs to make the decision that she wants to work on it and obsessing it is doing more harm to me and I can control that aspect.

[Okabe]

I'll see what I can do. I have already started backing off some today. Just have to keep that up.

[MrBond]

You read the whole DR book, correct?

What were the issues you had in the M? What were the problems that YOU had a hand in?

[Okabe]

You read the whole DR book, correct?

What were the issues you had in the M? What were the problems that YOU had a hand in?

I am still in the process of finishing the book. I have little time to read it at work and at home it's not something I want to whip out to read in front of my boys who think everything is fine.
Issues that I've had: Sexual intimacy (frequency, etc)- I have had a hand in making this a problem. I see it as shared.
Her not telling me when something is bothering her- I don't think I've had a hand in this, but one never knows I guess.
Her making decisions and following through- She can be extremely passive and just not do things (even her father and step mother have commented on this). Which is probably how I do most of the housework at this point: just to get things done. I suppose I have a hand in this as I enable the behavior.

I'll have to think some more. Those are just the ones at the front of my mind.

[Okabe]

I did back off last night.
No hugs, no kisses, no rolling over to cuddle with her at night when she came to bed.
I didn't tell her I love her like I usually do.
Not doing some of these things were weird as they've become such daily rituals to me, but I'll keep at it.

[sandi2]

Maybe this will help get you started in learning about detaching. It is not giving your spouse the cold shoulder or sulking. It is acting mad or hurt. It isn't even necessarily removing yourself physically from their presence. This is a quote taken from another poster about detaching. He has others that are quite lengthly, but you can start with this one.


Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment (found around here)

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.

* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."

IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -

We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.

[MrBond]

That list was all about blaming her. Rethink the actions that YOU are responsible for that broke the marriage. Be brutally honest with it. No one is a saint.

[Okabe]

That list was all about blaming her. Rethink the actions that YOU are responsible for that broke the marriage. Be brutally honest with it. No one is a saint.

Ok. I thought you were asking for my complaints. Big difference. I must've mis-read that.

Her complaint about me being not very affectionate is very true. It's not that I dislike it, I just get caught up in my head and don't realize how distant I'm being at times. That one has been a major issue and a large part of that is on me.

I placate. I want to fix things quickly and gloss over the problems in order to not have to deal with conflict that tends to make me feel uncomfortable.

I take on responsibility for too many things and then feel bad and resentful for it. That helps nothing.

There is more I am sure. I will have to think on it more.

Sandi2: thank you for the list. I will read more as I have time.

got to get back to work.

[MrBond]

"There is more I am sure. I will have to think on it more."

That's a good start, but we need a more comprehensive and detailed list.

For what you've written so far, what have you been doing to correct those bad behaviors that pushed your W away. I mean, you can't do anything about the affection part, but you can learn to be more compassionate.

[Okabe]

I've been thinking on my contributions to what I have done to sabotage our marriage and it is hard for me to come up with a detailed list. The W and I have had a low conflict relationship for so long (which I am sure is part of the problem) it is hard for me to come up with detailed answers. This is what I know so far.

Our intimacy dance: I come from a family where affection was hus not shown in hugs, cuddling, etc. I like this kind of affection, but can be very absent minded about it. So often I will get caught up in other activities and seem pretty distant. She will also retreat off to her own corner (often online gaming) and when I am thinking "some affection or time together would be nice" I see her at the computer and end up not approaching her. I will end up going to bed early (I work early hours) and she doesn't come to bed until late. A poor dynamic and when you add that I want sexual intimacy on top of that, she then feels upset for me wanting her to be ready to go without being close before hand. I see my part in this without a doubt. What am I doing about it now? Currently nothing since I am trying to detach.

I tend to be a "fixer" or "placater". If there is something that needs to be done, h

[Okabe]

I take care of it. I end up doing too much. And while I am often fine doing a lot if I am not appreciated for it I get bothered. Here I need to stop doing so much for her. She is an adult and I need to start standing up for myself.

I have also noticed how much I depends on her for my own esteem needs and have waited on her to do things that wanted to do. This is where detaching and GAL will help.

[Okabe]

I have been working on detaching this weekend and its been weird. I stopped the hugs and kisses and snuggling up to her at night. I have stopped telling her "I love you" which has been hard as it was such a part of our daily routine. I am sure she has noticed, but has not said anything. What does one do if she asks why you stopped?

[sandi2]

I am sure she has noticed, but has not said anything. What does one do if she asks why you stopped?

I doubt she will, but if so.....say something like...

"I don't want to put any pressure on you. You seem to be a little uncomfortable with it."

It doesn't need to go into a R talk. Just give a short, clear answer and leave it there.

[Okabe]

The weekend has gone mostly well. I ended up being able to speak with my best friend about what was happening between my S and I. He was/ is very supportive and isn't going to take sides, but will be there for me if I need to talk.
I have been reading about the 5 love languages and read a bunch more of DR.
I worked on making sure I backed off and worked on detaching. No hugs, kisses, or "I love yous". It has been weird and I'm sure she has noticed. The only physical affection has been me putting my hand on her shoulder while talking to her (I was standing up and she was sitting) and a quick squeeze of her hand when she came to bed.
Our conversations have been fine. She is most talkative when speaking about her school/ classes shes taking. Otherwise she doesn't have a lot to say. So I am kind and encouraging when talking with her about school.
I have more exercises from the books to do and more GAL.

[Okabe]

A funny thought occurred to me this morning as I got ready for work.
In regards to detachment what does one do?
I leave for work between 3:30 and 4:00 in the morning when everyone is still asleep. As a parting ritual I always go to my boys doors, tell them I love them, wish them a good day, and that I'll see them later. I also do this for my S, except I change the pattern and blow a kiss. I do this every day I work.
In regards to detachment, should I stop doing this for my S? I know she's asleep, so she doesn't hear it (at least consciously), but as I understand detachment it is more for me creating my own emotional/ mental boundaries and perhaps I should stop for myself. Or does it matter either way?
Just a thought.

[SunnyB]

I also do this for my S, except I change the pattern and blow a kiss. I do this every day I work.
In regards to detachment, should I stop doing this for my S? I know she's asleep, so she doesn't hear it (at least consciously),

Okabe, I'm not sure it matters. If she doesn't know it, then it's not for her anyway. I also get up before H on all school/work days, he's still asleep when I get up. Up until recently, I kissed him on the shoulder every day before I got out of bed. I stopped recently because that's where I was. He didn't know either way.

[Okabe]

Rppfl,
Thank you. I am just trying to get a handle on detaching and wasn't sure if that would be counter-productive for me emotionally.

[MrBond]

You've been together for 27 years. There must have been conflict. What did the two of you fight about? If we were to ask her what issues you had, what would she say?

[Okabe]

We were a very low conflict couple.
Our most consistent fights were around sexual intimacy and affection. I often wanted sex but neglected being as affectionate as she needed me to be. I would talk with her about my needs but was fairly dense about being in tune with hers.
Like I've stated earlier. I tend to placate. I do most of the housework, cooking, bill paying, I work and she was a stay at home mom for the last 11 years. I take on more work in order to get things done rather than fight about it and as long as it was appreciated I was fine.
As I write I remember that she would get mad when she thought I valued others opinions more than hers (that I wasn't hearing her). I sometimes would respond to a friends feedback as if it was new when she had told me the same thing.
I would guess a pattern of not listening well is there.
I also didn't fight with her like an adult. I took care of too much even when she was perfectly capable of doing something.
Does that make sense? Like I said: we rarely fought. Perhaps that was a bad thing.

[Okabe]

There were small things like: not leaving a knife in the sink. Not washing her coffee cup that was by the dishes. She may have had more issues but she has told me nothing was wrong even when I had asked her.
There somehow was a no conflict rule of sorts.

[MrBond]

Really think about this. No one has that little conflict. in a M.

"She may have had more issues but she has told me nothing was wrong even when I had asked her."

In the beginning, did she tell you when something was wrong and then you talked her out of it as being not that bad? Did you really listen to her in the few times that she did comment on something?

"There somehow was a no conflict rule of sorts."

That is mindreading on your part. You don't know what she was thinking.

[Okabe]

Really think about this. No one has that little conflict. in a M.

"She may have had more issues but she has told me nothing was wrong even when I had asked her."

In the beginning, did she tell you when something was wrong and then you talked her out of it as being not that bad ? Did you really listen to her in the few times that she did comment on something ?

"There somehow was a no conflict rule of sorts."

That is mindreading on your part. You don't know what she was thinking.

I'll keep thinking on it.

It has been many years so it is entirely possible that I dismissed her feelings /
opinions at the time.

The telling of nothing being wrong was something that I had caught her in (and she admitted to) in the past and I thought she was done with that behavior until we had this conversation where it all came out that she's been mad/ sad/ disappointed and assuming I'll never change. So while it may be mind reading it is not with out precident.
I referred to "no conflict rule " as how we typically behaved.
I will keep thinking about it.

[Okabe]

Issues we've had:
Finances: mostly fine. When she stopped working and was taking care of the kids sometimes when I didn't transfer money to her to cover some of her expenses she would get annoyed with me. I usually do all the grocery shopping (I work at a store) and pay the bills. When I had extra money I would get it to her, but I could be inconsistent. Not one of our greater issues.
Household chores/ labor: I do the cooking and a lot of the cleaning, most of the outdoor stuff. She did take care of the laundry, vacuuming, picking up dog waste in the back yard: since her shoulder injury and have started school I have taken on doing those too.
Work- She worked before our 2nd child was born. I have encouraged her to get a job, mostly to get out in the adult world before but she always said it would be too hard to get schedules to work.
Child raising- she gets the boys to and from school most days and helps with their school work when they need guidance. I sometimes have gotten too stressed and yelled in the past, but so has she. We both acknowledged we need to not sweat the small stuff and have done better.
Affection- I suck at it. Sometimes I'll remember and give her hugs, etc. But I tend to get wrapped up in my head and forget.
Sex- We have fought off and on about it for years. I want it more frequently (we sometimes manage 1x a month, some times longer, and for short periods throughout our relationship more than 2x a month). I tried talking about it. I suggested she initiate, so I could just be affectionate and wouldn't have to worry if I made her feel bad about coming on to her when she didn't feel close, but that didn't appeal to her. I suggested planned times, but she didn't like that idea. It has been hard to get close when we have set up a life that is not very conducive to intimacy. I go to bed early and she stays up online gaming until 2am.
Online Gaming- We have fought about that in the past, but not for a while. At her worst she was playing online MMOs 8-12 hours a day. We did fight about that because it was affecting our children. She now mostly plays at night when the boys are watching tv or going to bed. She now plays 3-5 hours a day at least. I suspect if shes told anyone about the problems we're having it would be her online game friends.
Friends- She lost one of her best friends a couple of years ago and her other best friend she barely talks to (her friend is very busy with a big family). She has complained about feeling alone. I have encouraged her to go out and do things or join an activity, but she doesn't make friends easily.
School- I support her schooling and am happy shes finally going. She works hard and I praise her for her efforts.
In-laws- I get along with her family and she gets along with mine. We go and visit her Dad and Step-mom every year for 10 days, which is fine. I have told her when I do trips just with her and the boys I like those as well because I feel less on guard and relax more: she doesn't get this and gets a little annoyed.
Organization- She has gotten mad when she has tried a new method of organizing shoes, or mail, food in the pantry, etc and I (or the boys) don't follow it (we have sometimes). That is frustrating to her.

This is just my attempt to get some ideas out about conflict and where some may be. I will keep thinking.

[MrBond]

Okay now from that list, if we asked your W what issues she had with you, what would she say? Would she say that you were controlling? I see some tendency of that, especially in the money side of things. You "gave" her money if there was any extra kind of like a parent giving a child allowance.

[Okabe]

That is a point. I'll think on that. I always felt I couldn't tell her to do anything, she's stubborn and will dig in her heels and do the opposite if pushed to hard. I always felt like I was giving in but perhaps I am controlling in some ways and never realized it.

[Okabe]

Please don't think I'm trying to be difficult or place all the blame on her. I am not. I know I share in the responsibility for where we are now and that I contributed to the problems we have today. I want to figure these out and work on them so I don't keep making the same mistakes.

[Okabe]

Since Thursday last week I started backing off. I know that it's been noticed. How long does one give space and not bring up relationship talk? It's not that I am in a hurry, it's just that this is foreign to me. Otherwise we're getting along fine. We were talking politics last night and have been able to talk about her school stuff. Everything seems to be carrying on almost as normal.

[MrBond]

Did you read all of DR? The answer is there.

[Card29]

Okabe, I know you said earlier that it's hard for you to read DR with everyone around. You need to find time to read it, ASAP. Right now you're in the midst of a M crisis, the best solution is that book, and you're not reading it. Find an hour a day to read.

Also, have you read Sandi's 37 rules at the top of the board? It is also in that list, although not as directly as it is in DR.

[Okabe]

"Until she is ready to talk about it."
That is what I took from Sandi's 37 rules. I have read it. I just need to keep re-reading these things. I am reading a lot right now, so it sometimes gets jumbled and of course I am having a hard time (internally) letting things go (although I am trying).
I'll read more of DR and go back and re-read sections when I get a chance.
I got to keep just working on myself, detach, and try to GAL.

Sorry if I seem dense...I just don't know what I'm doing exactly. So I do appreciate the feedback.

[MrBond]

"Sorry if I seem dense...I just don't know what I'm doing exactly."

No it just sounds like you glossed over the book and didn't bother to learn from it. Go back and take notes. Study it.

The answers are there.

[Okabe]

Okay.
I am re-reading it and highlighting passages.
I am trying a few changes.
I tend to be a "fixer" and I take on a lot of stuff, and she lets me (just like it says in the book).
So while these may not be complete 180s let me know if you think I am on the right kind of track.
-She has never gotten the oil changed in our van. I am going to let her take care of that.
- I do most of the meal planning and grocery shopping. I am going to take 1 or 2 days "off" per week to let her handle it.
- She usually expects me to plan our vacations when we go camping. I had already did one and told her she could plan the other (i know this violates the "don't make future plans" rule, but this was already in the works before I got the book).

I have backed off on the affection and "I love yous".

I will keep reading the book, highlighting and taking notes.

[MrBond]

Those still aren't problems. That's just you guessing.

Really put yourself in her shoes. If you were her and you treated her the way you do, what would she complain about?

She wouldn't be hurting if you were that perfect.

[Okabe]

That is a point.
The camping one is an issue that was brought up. Srhe has told me that she felt frustrated because she knew I wouldn't follow through and plan anything for because I hadn't the last 2 years (since we had gone with friends). I figured that I'd change that by removing myself from all of the planning (which I normally do).
A big set of our issues (our repeated fight for our entire relationship) is around affection, intimacy, and time together.
This, I can't work on right now as I am trying to give her her space and detach.

[Okabe]

She says she feels lonely with me.
How do I address this if I am detaching? This is what confuses me.
I do invite her to wall the dog with me or watch a show with me, but she declines.
I am trying to figure out how to be available yet detach.
I am trying to remember complaints and feel like I am being honest.
I am by no means perfect. I can be inattentive, unaffectionate, and off in my own head. I take on lots of things and then get stressed and freak out. I can (unintentionally not take her seriously or value others ideas over hers). I have made her feel like I don't value her contributions to the household before. I have made her feel like she is not heard.

[Okabe]

I have made her feel like crap. Like she was a piece of meat in regards to our sex life.
That I didn't care or listen to her about her need to feel close.

[MrBond]

FINALLY! Big change from you saying that you couldn't figure out any issues when you thought you had a "low conflict" relationship.

[Okabe]

So in regards to me acting unaffectionate, inattentive, and not being close. I assume that any attempts at addressing that is going to be too much for the time being until she decides what she wants to do and is ready to talk. Until then I should continue to work on myself (what other things I contributed to this) and on detaching?

[Okabe]

As a part of detaching I understand you are supposed to limit your interactions. I know that I need to do this more. If I mention something that happened at work or something that I found amusing or interesting it is met with a minimal response or silence. I don't know if this is on purpose or if she is just mentaly wrapped up in her schoolwork (which she will talk about). I suppose I just should not talk about myself/ my life outside the house. How do others deal with this? It is very foreign to how I normally act (which I guess is the point).

[sandi2]

A big set of our issues (our repeated fight for our entire relationship) is around affection, intimacy, and time together

From her point of view, the issues in the R (affection. Intimacy, and time together) may have had to do with the below statement:

I have made her feel like crap. Like she was a piece of meat in regards to our sex life. That I didn't care or listen to her about her need to feel close.

Has she tried to explain this over time? I think you are now getting real.

[Okabe]

Yes. She has. I really have no good excuse. I like affection (not as much as she did/ does). I would often go for periods of being wrapped up in my head and be pretty inattentive to that and then I'd want my needs met when I wasn't addressing hers. I came from a very low affection family. My parents didn't hug. I never saw them sitting together or cuddling. This is not to excuse my behavior, it is just my model.
She most often would bring it up after I started a discussion about my needs. I tried to change at times and it would work for a while or she'd just see any affection I gave her as having an ulterior motive for wanting to have sex.

[Okabe]

That's what makes detaching so counter intuitive to me right now. My impulse is to try to fix it by being affectionate and spending lots of time with her but I know from both the readings and her demeanor that would be a bad idea.

[sandi2]

Have you finished the Divorce Remedy yet? If so, read the book about love languages.

If your W wants affection......but not too keen about it leading to sex, then I have a few suggestions. You do realize that sex for her does not necessarily mean affection? I know a couple that had that problem. She wanted the kisses, hugs, cuddling, etc., but it made her upset that it always led to sex.....for him. So she stopped showing any affection. Then he accused her of being cold. It was a problem that nearly led to D. A lack of understanding in our mate's needs can be a huge problem that can make us feel lonely and sad. You may have held resentment about the sexual side to it, while she resented that it had to lead to sex. Have either of you thought about counseling for that specific problem?

What you said today about how you made her feel during sex suggests that she felt very disrespected instead of feeling cherished. Sorry if you've already mentioned this, but do have a porn addiction?

How respectful are you in your interactions with her? How about when the two of you are around others? Ever make her the butt of your jokes? Put her down? Talk disrespectfully to her while in front of others? Maybe not in your viewpoint, but hers? There are many little things (in the opinion of the man) that are extremely hurtful to a sensitive lady. If she has low self-esteem, this type of behavior from her H can lead to major problems in the MR, but she feels devalued by the one who should treasure her the most. Examine this closesly and see how you rate.

In order to reach the level of reconciliation, I believe you have to start over with your R with a WAW. For now, you need to go back to the stage of not being intimate and just be polite and curteous in your interactions. Think of her, or treat her, much like you would treat her if she were a boarder in your home. Not a young, sexy woman you want to hit on, but a lady you respect very much. Maybe even an older woman (if that will help). Practice speaking and having courteous manners. Do nothing that puts pressure or expectations on her. Btw, if you still share the bed, that's okay, just don't initiate anything.

After you do this for a while, you can slowly incorporate some non-sexual touches. Hand on her shoulder, pat on the back, hand in small of her back, etc. If you feel her resistance, then stop doing it, but if she doesn't then you slowly (very slowly) begin to work in some affectionate touches (not sexual), just tender, sweet touches. This takes time. Not just a few days. And during this period of time, you are working on the other areas of the R.

The 37 rules are to help you see how to pull back. But hopefully, you won't have to remain there forever. It is to help you detach and to give her space. As the R begins to heal, little by little these will dissolve. But again, it does take time to get there.

[sandi2]

Yes. She has. I really have no good excuse. I like affection (not as much as she did/ does). I would often go for periods of being wrapped up in my head and be pretty inattentive to that and then I'd want my needs met when I wasn't addressing hers. I came from a very low affection family. My parents didn't hug. I never saw them sitting together or cuddling. This is not to excuse my behavior, it is just my model.
She most often would bring it up after I started a discussion about my needs. I tried to change at times and it would work for a while or she'd just see any affection I gave her as having an ulterior motive for wanting to have sex.

I understand. The good news is that it's not too late to learn and to change how you think and behave. It's just as upsetting for her, but maybe in a different way from you. It took a long time for her to reach this place. She will need to feel safe (in an emotional sense) and start to feel respect and attraction again.

Have you ever read his needs - her needs? It might help you understand her better.

That's what makes detaching so counter intuitive to me right now. My impulse is to try to fix it by being affectionate and spending lots of time with her but I know from both the readings and her demeanor that would be a bad idea.

Here's what's happening. You know you've messed up badly, and may lose your W. Now....at this time, you are wanting to do all those things she needed over those years. But for her....it is too late. Her feelings has shut down. She is fed up. So if you try to do those things now......she will be out of there. You are thinking in terms that she still feels the same about you, so you'll start doing what you should have before now.....and all will be fine. But she doesn't feel the same toward you. It has all changed. That's why those actions will fail if you try it. In fact, the WAW usually reacts very strongly about it. She does not want it and does not like it. As soon as you accept that that's the way she is, you can start doing things the right way.

You have to learndot take a different direction, now. You start by improving yourself for life, and by rebuilding a new R with her. At the present time, I don't know if you are a man she would even want to meet, much less have something more, but IDK. So by working on yourself, hopefully you will be a man she would like to meet, be around more, get to know better. It has to be done in small doses. Just like when you first met. Except now, she will be watching more closely, and you have more to prove.

[Okabe]

In regards to porn addiction: no. I watch it on occasion, but with no real regularity. I don't mistake porn for reality.
I have read Divorce Remedy, but need to keep re-reading it to make sure it sinks in. I have also just read the book on 5 love languages.
We have done counseling a long time ago. About 20+ years ago (before we were married) I had a one night stand and confessed it to her immediately. We were having the same issues then and just had been living together for a couple of years. We went to counseling again about 5 years later when she said she still was feeling the effects of my original infidelity. The first time we went the therapist wasn't very good for us (especially her). The second time it helped some.
I have never belittled or made fun of her in front of anyone and not at home either. She would never put up with that from me or anyone. She is a very strong woman and I admire her for that. But I will think about that some more.

[Okabe]

So far I have been polite and friendly. The only physical contact I have been doing is a brief hand on the shoulder or upper back sometimes when I come to tell her something. I can talk with her about her schooling, our kids, current events, and household tasks in a perfectly friendly manner. However if I say anything related to me (like something I thought was funny or work) she doesn't respond.
She is making plans for the future that hinge on me (insurance, vacation), but I still have no idea if she plans to stay or go. She only ever told me "I don't know" (which is better than saying she wants a divorce) . I know she has to decide what to do and I cannot control that.
I know she told me that she knows I have tried to be a good husband. I do the cooking, cleaning, pay the bills, and help with my boys. I try to do thoughtful things: I had got our wedding photo enlarged, made black and white and put in an antique frame. I sometimes randomly will pick her up a treat or little gift (something inexpensive).
But when it comes to the affection, intimacy, and time together I really have failed.
I will back off and work on myself. I've already been loosing weight.

[sandi2]

After reading about the love languages, what do you think is your W's LL?

Back to what you said about your W feeling like a piece of meat when you have sex. What did you do that would make her feel that way? How does she feel about you watching porn?

[Okabe]

I would guess her love language is physical touch or time together.
I don't tell her about the porn. I might watch something once every couple of months. I know she wouldn't like it. It is usually when we hadn't had sex for a while (like a month or two).
She has said she feels that way when we haven't been very connected and I look to initiate sex. She said it's like I want to from 0-60 too fast. And she is right. I am guilty of doing that.

[Okabe]

Its not feeling like a "piece of meat" during. It was more of how I approached her. Me being ready to go at a moments notice and initiating stuff when she isn't feeling close since I hadn't been affectionate earlier.

[Okabe]

I was at a seminar all yesterday. Everyone went out for dinner afterwords (about 10 of us). She came with our younger son. It was nice to see her out and being social. To see her smiling and enjoying herself made me happy.
I had a dream last night where we held hands tight and she told me she loved me. That made me cry in my dream and I have tears as I write this

It is very hard not to tell her I love her and to give her a hug right now. I know I shouldn't and that it very well may not be welcomed, but it is still hard.

[sandi2]

Its not feeling like a "piece of meat" during. It was more of how I approached her. Me being ready to go at a moments notice and initiating stuff when she isn't feeling close since I hadn't been affectionate earlier.

Do you understand how she needs to feel emotionally connected before sex? Even with PT as her LL, most women can't get there as fast as men. You have to start making love to their mind first, and using the PT every day.....throughout the day. You can't ignore her needs and then expect her to work like a microwave.

[Okabe]

Yeah. I know. We both had developed ways we isolated ourselves over the years and getting un-stuck from them is something I just didn't do. After reading about love languages it has made more sense. At this point I just have to wait because this isn't something I can work on with her now.

[sandi2]

You know......but you just didn't do it. I hear that a lot from LBH'S, which makes me wonder about the reason they "just didn't do it". You need to deal with the reason behind it, or nothing will change.

[Okabe]

I can't speak to the whole reason.
I came from a very non-affectionate household. My family didn't hug, cuddle etc. There were times I would be good at it and time that I would not be.
I often would want to sit next to her throughout our relationship, but she often would "nest" for lack of a better term. She would have tons of stuff, built up around where she sat. Or she'd sit in a papasan chair, or at her computer. I wouldn't say anything like "come here" even though at times I wanted to spend time with her. I don't know why.
When it all came out she told me she was doing the same thing. She'd see me at the computer, but wouldn't ask me for what she wanted/needed.
We built this really stupid dance. She spent more time playing her online games, which I didn't like the amount of time she spent on them and that she'd always come to bed late, but I supported it because it was one of her very few social activities. I figured things were ok since she wasn't saying anything, but could feel that they were not.
I wanted her to come to me. I hated always pursuing her (especially in regards to sex) because I know every time I brought something up it ended up making her feel defensive and hurt (even though that was the last thing I wanted to do). I guess it was that I was always asking her to change, but not doing it myself.
BTW: Thank you Sandi2. I don't know what I'm doing. So thank you for your feedback.

[Okabe]

Inspirational song that keeps me going :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fORG3YSfCzM

[sandi2]

My H is much the same way. What seems odd to me is how (some) men pursue women before they get M. After M, they want the W to pursue them. If she doesn't, he gets hurt and then the "dance" starts. When she becomes a WAW, he wants to pursue again.

IDK, I was taught that it is the man's nature to be the pursuer and the woman's nature is to be the responder. But these days, I think they are too confused to know what to do.

[bdub]

Re: pursuing..... In my case, I stopped pursuing because being rejected over and over and over again is not pleasant. Personally I got to the point where I was more comfortable not taking the risk of being rejected.

[Okabe]

Bdub: That is very much the case. It was/ is painful to be rejected so many times.
I can't blame her for my lack of affection, but we both built walls to some degree or another. Sometimes it was better than others.
We had got together when we were 17. Neither of us dated a lot. She has always been very hesitant or just not interested in talking about sex. And I was young, immature and developed bad habits about how to interact with her. I would ask how to do things different. I asked for specifics and she was always real general with me.
I tried to ask her to initiate sex so that I didn't have to so I could only concentrate on being affectionate, but she wasn't comfortable with that.
Stuff seemed to get worse (she more distant) after she injured her shoulder. This took her out of martial arts which she did 2 classes of kung fu with me per week and 1 class of Tai Chi on her own. Her world got smaller. She seemed to be more and more upset/ angry/ withdrawn. I'd ask her if anything was wrong and I was met with: "nothing". Since she had lost her mother and her best friend and now wasn't doing kung fu her social life was just her online gaming friends (if she's talked to anybody about our problems it'd be them, but IDK if she has). It was ironically me asking her to be the one to come up to give her hugs rather than just me that set off the whole conversation that brought up her thinking about separation (which is still in the :IDK stage).
I never felt like I stopped trying. I just wasn't doing the right thing or enough of it for her to feel that I cared or loved enough. Tired and Frustrated is how she described herself.
I am trying to detach, but find myself really wanting to pursue and talk to her, but I won't, I know it's not the right thing to do now.

[Okabe]

So Stupid...

I did something I knew I shouldn't have.

We had a meeting with a psychologist for out S who is getting checked for a learning disability. The psychologist was asking where we were from, how we met, etc. (nothing in depth). I was feeling good after the meeting. We had come in separate cars since I had come straight from work and she from picking our son from school. I was talking to her afterwords before I went to pick up our other son from his friend's house. I reached out and squeezed her hand: no response. It may have been she didn't get why I was doing it or it was just un-welcomed, but no response. It was a poor idea.
On the up side I told her her new reading glasses looked cute on her (the first time she's had glasses since I've known her) and that got a genuine smile.
I need to back off more...

[Wet]

So Stupid...

I did something I knew I shouldn't have.

...I was talking to her afterwords before I went to pick up our other son from his friend's house. I reached out and squeezed her hand: no response. It may have been she didn't get why I was doing it or it was just un-welcomed, but no response. It was a poor idea.

Hi Okabe,

Don't worry about this. It is a long battle we are in, and sometimes we try something different (like trying to hold W's hand) just to see what the response is. Be a scientist on this. See what works, and stop doing what doesn't. Your W liked the compliment on her reading glasses, so maybe try other thoughtful compliments in the future, instead of hand holding. Good luck.

[MrBond]

What was it that you did wrong?

You did something and was EXPECTING her to respond a certain way. Then when she didn't, you got upset. It's not a poor idea. What's poor is you expecting her to respond in a way that you want to and not in a way she wants to.

In fact, I'm sure there are many times that you did something like that over the course of your relationship and she didn't respond but you didnt' think anything of it. You're being hyper sensitive.

[Okabe]

What was it that you did wrong?

You did something and was EXPECTING her to respond a certain way. Then when she didn't, you got upset. It's not a poor idea. What's poor is you expecting her to respond in a way that you want to and not in a way she wants to.

In fact, I'm sure there are many times that you did something like that over the course of your relationship and she didn't respond but you didnt' think anything of it. You're being hyper sensitive.

You're right. The expectation I put on her response was my mistake. And yes, I am being hypersensitive. It has been that kind of couple of days for me I guess.

[Okabe]

Crying on the treadmill while watching "Community" where Senor Chang gets reunited with his wife is kind of the state of mind I've been in.
Gotta do something different. Community is a laughing show, not a crying at inappropriate moments show.

[Okabe]

This may seem like a dumb question.
In what I've read about detaching there is a lot about developing independence and not fostering dependency (unhealthy) in the person you are with.
In my relationship I have over the years taken on more and more of the housework, bills, outdoor maintenance etc.
Is it healthy for me to back off on some of that and let my W take care of more things? Like getting the oil changed in our van? Planning a few meals? Shipping x-mas presents to her family?
Or does it really make no difference? I feel like she sometimes takes advantage of the fact that I'll "just take care of it" (although I let her, so I can't blame her for that) and that perhaps I should be drawing firmer boundaries here.

[Wet]

Hi Okabe,

What do you want to do? If you enjoy the housework, then keep doing it. If you would prefer to be reading a book, or going for a walk with that time instead, then do those things. This is the gift of time that you've been given to find out what you really enjoy in life.

[Okabe]

Hi Wet,
It's not that I often mind cooking, cleaning, etc. But it seems more and more things that she once did are getting left for me to take care of. I don't know if this is a symptom of her being very focused on school or a subtle dig at me (which as I write this I realize I am mind-reading by putting my emotions into what she is (not) doing). What bothers me mostly is that it is taken for granted. There is no "thank you" or appreciation. Perhaps there never will be and I have to resolve myself to that.
There are however some things I feel that she should not shirk. She complained how we didn't go camping last year because I didn't plan it. So in my rush to fix things I said we'd go on 3 trips next year. One with friends which we'll all plan together and 2 with the family. I got dates chosen and planned one of the trips and realized: she never plans a trip yet they are important to her, but I do all the research and reserving of sites etc. So I told her since I did one that she can take care of the other.
Christmas gifts to her family out of state. I buy them and ship them every year. I think she can take care of that.
She has told me multiple times how the van needs an oil change, but I rarely have time to take it in: she does.
I find that she will defer things to me to do. She often has a logical reason why she doesn't do it, but it often puts more on my plate.
I will have to think about what boundaries I need to start to draw for myself.
She is an adult and she can take care of things.

[Okabe]

GAL goals:
Lose more weight (already doing good there)
Learn Japanese
Get a blog going (got it started)
Learn hip hop dance
Learn acoustic guitar
Be more friendly and open to making new friends
Spend more (better time with my sons)

Relationship goals:
Continue to learn about and work on detachment
Read relationship and communication books (recommendations?)
Work on creating better boundaries
Try a few experiments around bids and affection (not for a while)
Figure out who I am and what I need
Observe

[Okabe]

Small something. Or not.
I go to bed around 9:00 pm every night and the W comes in somewhere between 12-2 am usually. I often wake up, but don't say anything. Last night I decided to reach over and give her hand a squeeze and say good night just to see what she'd do. She patted my hand and before she could stop herself she blew me a brief kiss. I knows it was automatic, but I took note of it. Today I mentioned to her that I head it, knew it was just reflexive, but that I appreciated hearing it anyways. She smiled. I won't make a habit of doing this, but will try it again at some point to see if the response repeats or not.

[oldman]

Okabe -- don't worry too much about the crying on the treadmill deal. I find myself getting choaked up watching kids movies when the lego man saves the town =0)

[Okabe]

Tried including the W on a few things this weekend. I was taking our son for a haircut and said after he and I would go out for lunch. I asked if she wanted to come along. She said no. I also am going to see 'Book of Life" tomorrow and said she was welcome to come along. She declined saying she wasn't interested in that film.
I know she's busy with her schoolwork, but for a person who complained about being lonely she turns down a lot of opportunities to be together. It is not changing what I do, I just am taking note.

[Okabe]

Funny how through detaching and GAL I can't do the thing that I impulsively think I should do. I want to reconnect, but know that I cannot force that to happen. I suppose this is me wanting to rescue the relationship, but what good is that if she doesn't? She needs to come to her own conclusions/ decisions without me being up in her face about it. I need to work on myself and make myself better for me. I just see this as taking a long time. I see her putting all of her attention to school and parenting and wonder how long we will be in a "holding pattern".

[Okabe]

This morning I grabbed her hand for a moment while letting her know if she had an activity or something she'd like to do together to let me know. The hand was passive, no real response to being held. She said "ok" and that she would let me know (although I don't expect her to). It was an experiment to see how she reacts. Hand holding at this point is a bust. I got that out of it.

"Book of Life" was good though.

[sandi2]

You had the same reaction from her the last you held her hand. Why did you do it again?

[Okabe]

I guess I am re-testing to see what works and what doesn't. I wasn't as invested in getting the result I wanted as last time, I was more wanting to see what would happen.
No affection seems to be wanted (definitely not reciprocated). I can put my hand on her shoulder or upper back when I come to tell her something and she doesn't seem to mind.
She hasn't wanted to spend any time together doing anything that I've offered.
She will talk about school (hers), politics, parenting, her game (some), holiday logistics. Usually when i ask her about these things. That is mostly it. Otherwise she works on her school stuff, helps the boys, and plays her online games.
This is what I know so far.

[Okabe]

It's funny. More and more I think about detachment, the more I realize it is about letting go in some way.
I can work on being a better man and make changes for myself.
I can identify what I did wrong, admit it and try to work on what is workable (and accept I may not be able to work on some things for quite some time if at all depending).
I can get a life.
I can choose to be happy, but I can't make her be happy with me. At some point she has to decide whether she is going to be engaged with a future with me.
Right now, while she decides, I guess I am in kind of a holding pattern.
My son's friend's mother was over at our house the other day picking up her daughter. She does "Laughter Yoga". It is the conscious decision to use laughter and breathing for health (good hormones, brain chemicals, etc). She said even if faking a good belly laugh you still get the benefits.
I've decided I need more laughter and Joy. That is one thing I will work on as well.

"Find light in the beautiful sea
I choose to be happy "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU-VJOzb-10

[Okabe]

Trying an experiment.
Sent a message on FB to tell her I'd like a hug if she is comfortable with that and if not that's fine as well.
Will see what happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYvhhMjW32k

[MrBond]

You know that's not going to work right? I mean you just begged her for a hug. It makes you seem clingy.

[Okabe]

You know that's not going to work right? I mean you just begged her for a hug. It makes you seem clingy.

You're probably right.
Since low affection was one of the stated issues. I guess I am just trying to see what will work and what won't. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I will back off and continue to work on myself until she feels ready to talk, etc.
I still haven't got a clue exactly as what she wants to do. There has been no relationship talk, hugging, kissing, or "I love yous" since I stopped last month.
I am continuing to read things to help myself, journaling,and working on GAL stuff.
We'll see what happens, but you are most likely right.

[Okabe]

MrBond you were right.
There was no response. I couldn't leave well enough alone. So I asked her: "so that is a no to my message, I assume?" to which she replied: "I never said you couldn't hug me."
And then the first relationship discussion since the end of September began. It wasn't lengthy.
I told her that I wasn't just going to hug her if it was unwanted and That I had no idea what she wants (she still replied "I don't know"). I admitted that I tried for too many years to change her with out changing myself and that I was sorry for that.
I said that the only thing that I could do was work on me and that she'd have to decide what she wants, and that she knows what I want and that hasn't changed.
I said that perhaps I wasn't the man she wanted anymore, but that wasn't my decision. I said maybe she'd found someone else and was involved with someone online emotionally, that I didn't think so, but that it was something that I had feared/ considered. She said she understood that fear, but neither confirmed or denied any emotional affair.
I said I'd leave her alone and not bug her for answers, that she needs to come to that on her own without me in her face about it.

I know I should have left well enough alone. I am backing off again. Got to work harder on detaching and GAL. It was a lapse of judgement, but what was done is done I guess.

[sandi2]

Sent a message on FB to tell her I'd like a hug if she is comfortable with that and if not that's fine as well.

OMG!

And yet.....it got worse

There was no response. I couldn't leave well enough alone. So I asked her: "so that is a no to my message, I assume?"

......and worse

I said that perhaps I wasn't the man she wanted anymore, but that wasn't my decision. I said maybe she'd found someone else and was involved with someone online emotionally, that I didn't think so, but that it was something that I had feared/ considered.

I said I'd leave her alone and not bug her for answers, that she needs to come to that on her own without me in her face about it.

Yeah, it is the LBH's lapse of judgment that can really push away the WAW. It will help your judgment if you can just stick to what DB says not to do.