Thanks for checking on me, G! I had a long post typed up a couple of days ago and then my computer gave me the blue screen of death, so I lost it.
A lot is happening -- some good, some bad -- but I don't feel very much movement in my sitch at all right now. I also don't think I've been very "good" at DBing over the last couple of weeks. But maybe, since we're trying to work on the M, it's okay to have more R talk, pursuit, etc?
I had pulled way back again in the week before our 2nd MC session -- LC related to our D7 and logistics only. This was the week that H kept apologizing for being rude to me one morning on the phone.
The night before MC, he watched D7 at my house while I went to a GAL activity. He was grumpy when he arrived but I decided not to say anything and see what happened when I got back. Unfortunately, when I came home he was asleep on the couch and I had to wake him up, which reignited (or exacerbated) his grumpiness. We had an awkward goodbye and then about 10 minutes later I texted him and said that I was feeling really defeated because I had given him space all week and it just seemed to make him more distant. I told him that I was so close to giving up and I wanted a reason to keep fighting.
He texted me back at 5am and said he was sorry that I was feeling defeated and asked if we could talk during the day before MC. I said yes and we set a time. He called me later that morning and basically said that he didn't have the words to reassure me but he doesn't want me to give up. I told him I felt like we were hanging by a thread and he said that he felt he was communicating otherwise, that he doesn't feel close to giving up right now. (I really feel like I'm getting mixed messages here.) We agreed that we wouldn't resolve everything in one phone call, that we're both still trying, and that we'd see each at MC that afternoon.
I'll come back and post about MC session itself in a little while.
We started by telling the MC what we each wanted to talk about. For H, it was the finances and the fact that he feels like I don't honor the agreements we make in/after counseling. I wanted to talk about a plan for spending more time together and how to recognize and/or celebrate the improvements we are making.
The MC asked what we wanted to start with, and I agreed to talk about the finances first.
So, H repeats what he'd told me before the session -- that he feels financially vulnerable to me because he's setting a precedent each month for spousal support in the event that we D. I explain the ways in which I feel financially vulnerable and how it spills over into other parts of the R (e.g., I'm afraid to speak my mind for fear of being cut off financially). I also brought up the fact that, in theory, neither one of us wants a D, so why are we spending so much of our energy as a couple discussing a hypothetical outcome that neither of us wants?
The MC asked my H if still wants to reconcile. H said, "Yes, that's my ultimate goal." The MC looked at me and said, "You share that too, right?" I said I did. The MC said, "So you aren't separated with the intent of getting divorced. You're married, but living separately. That's a big difference."
We ended up talking about why I work part-time. I mentioned that going back to work full-time before the S was incompatible with some of my other goals. The MC asked what those goals were, and I said, "I wanted to have more children." The MC then turned to my H and asked the dreaded question, "Do you want more children?"
Now, I have purposefully avoided this topic with my H. Since we separated, I have not asked him even one time whether or not he wants more children. (You may recall that he told me when he left that he felt like his only options were to give me another baby or leave me.) I wanted to make my decision about our M without that information -- to decide whether the M was something I wanted apart from the opportunity to have more children. As I'm still in the deciding stage, I've been very happy in my ignorance.
But, H answered the question anyway, and the answer was yes. So, that's good, in a way. But I'm going to have to be careful not to let that prospect cloud my judgment moving forward.
So, H mentions that he is disappointed that, before the S, I said I would look for another job but didn't. I interrupted him and said that he had said we could have another baby but didn't really mean that either at the time, and that rather than focus on things we said six months ago under entirely different circumstances I wished we could focus on where we are now.
H shot me A Look after I said this so I apologized. The MC stopped us and asked my H how he felt. H started crying and said he felt "beaten down." The MC told him to ask me if I meant to make him feel that way. I said no. The MC then led us through an exercise where H told me how he was interpreting the things I said or did. The MC encouraged him to listen to how I responded and to use those responses to re-interpret what I said or did in a way that wasn't so negative. Then we did the same thing in reverse with one of "my" issues.
So, the whole "I feel controlled" thing from last time was as much about my H recognizing when he's by filtering an interaction through an inaccurate narrative as it is about alerting me to when I'm hurting him.
We left the session and he gave me a little side hug -- which is normally not a big deal but D7 was with us at that point (she'd been doing her homework in the waiting room) and he's not shown me any affection in front of her since early July.
A few hours later I realized that he texted me right after the session and suggested that we go to dinner at a favorite restaurant across the street after our next session.
A little more happened over the weekend, but I need to get some work done. I'll come back and add more later.
On Saturday morning I dropped D7 off at his house for kid exchange. He said that he was planning to buy a kitchen table and that idea just triggered a real hopelessness in me. I said to him, "We're never getting back together, are we?" (Remember when I said I've been a bad DBer lately?)
H said, "It doesn't have to be that way but if we keep having moments like this it will be." Then he got upset and started to stonewall me. I looked at him and said the code phrase that we had so painstakingly worked out together just two weeks earlier. It didn't even register with him. (So who is it that doesn't hold to agreements we make in/after counseling . . . )
We kind of smoothed things over and I left. I called him about a half an hour later and said I was sorry. He apologized also and asked why those moments keep happening. We had heart to heart in which we both admitted feeling hopeless with our situation at the moment. H insisted that he didn't want to feel that way. We agreed that we would talk more later that night.
On Saturday H called and we had another long phone call. H again reiterated that he wants to be married, but he doesn't know how to get from here to there and isn't feeling very optimistic at the moment. I listened and validated and he did the same, for the most part. (Which is a 180 for him, at least compared to the past 6 months or so.) I asked him if the conversation was hard for him and he said that it was but he understands that it is part of the process. I asked what the next step would be and he said lunch this week -- which we did on Wednesday.
He also came over on Tuesday night for ML. While we were cuddling afterward I asked him if he'd ever seen When Harry Met Sally -- thinking of the bit about how after sex the man is trying to figure out how to leave. He said he hadn't, but asked me if "we" owned it.
Other interactions this week have been mostly positive. I've noticed that he makes a point to address me during kid exchanges and ask me how I'm doing, whether I had a good day, etc. He is texting me more (about kid/logistic stuff, but still).
I have no confidence that his actions mean anything when he is so pessimistic with his words.
We had our 3rd session with the new MC yesterday. I'm liking this counselor more and more. He teaches couples how to have heart-to-heart conversations and most of the session is spent talking to each other rather than the MC.
The MC will interject when he feels like we aren't communicating well. For example, at one point during the session, H said that he didn't "want" to help me feel better. I responded honestly and said that made me want to get up and leave. The MC asked H if he meant to say he didn't "want" to help me. H said no, the problem is that he can't. We went back and forth on that for a few minutes until finally the MC took over for my H and said, "Elsa, the problem isn't that I don't want to or that I can't, it's that I'm in a quandary, because I don't know how to help you without hurting myself." H confirmed that's how he feels.
H and I continued on our own from there and I felt like we were having a brand new conversation. H said that he wants to give me another chance but he is afraid that if it doesn't work he won't have any more chances left. I told him that I don't think I'm ready to take his last chance because we still have work to do. I also said that this is delicate dance and we have to work together. H said that he felt like I was saying that he had to change first (???) and that the only way he knows to make things better is to take more time for healing. The MC interjected and said that I was saying some really positive things about working together -- which is helpful, because H will listen to whatever the MC says.
I mentioned feeling like we were back at "square one" when H talked about focusing on himself. The MC said that it was normal to make progress and then fall back to a "comfortable" place, but that over time the progress will build and it won't crumble away. I liked that the MC seemed to value connecting over retreating, and it was helpful for me to hear the MC say that falling backward is part of the process of moving forward.
Afterward we went to dinner and had a nice time. H shared some good news about his job (and made a point to say -- "I'm sharing this because I want you to be the first person I tell").
We're going to do a fall activity together with D7 tomorrow. It will be the first time we've done anything as a family since the day we told her about the S (so, 3 months). I know he's nervous but I'm just going to maintain a PMA and show him that we can have a better R.
Hooray for progress! Even if it's 3 steps forward, 2 steps back. Keep after it.
Me: 34 W:33 T: 10 M: 6 S: 6 D: 5 BD: 5/14 Still together(ish) Not giving up: 7/14 D talk has slowed, a lot. Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms. Slow and Steady wins the race.
Elsa, this is AWESOME news! Keep up the great work and remain patient. And your MC is right on the money with the comment about falling back while moving forward. If you expect it to be a continuous, gradual improvement with no setbacks, you will be severely disappointed when the inevitable setbacks occur. Learn from them and keep rolling
Me 38, WAW 30 D11 (former marriage) S2 T 8 years M 3 years BD 8/20/23 S 8/20/23
I have been lurking but for some reason haven't felt up to posting during the past few weeks. I think it's been a combination of busy-ness (work is picking up for me right now, so I have little free time) and feeling like I'm failing at DBing. But, I thought I'd pop in for an update.
We are definitely on a rollercoaster. My H continues to affirm that he wants the M to work, but he has been very pessimistic in his belief that it will. Things seemed to get better and I went on a limb and asked him to spend the night last weekend. Of course, he said no and we had an awful R talk that ended badly. The next day he said he was still trying but that he needed space, so I pulled back (again).
The bad R talk was last Friday night, so it's been more than a week now. I have seen some positives, including --
1. The day after the bad R talk I texted him and asked if we could talk for a few minutes. He said no, and I told him that I would respect his request. He sent me a "thank you" text, and thanked me again later in the day at kid exchange.
2. We did another family activity last Sunday. We were together for 3 or 4 hours and had a lovely time. Later in the evening I texted him again and asked if he would be comfortable talking for a few minutes because I was worried. (He had threatened during the bad R talk on Friday night to call his attorney "first thing Monday morning.") He said he would call me in the morning and that I didn't need to worry "WVP". WVP stands for Wedding Vow Promise and is something that we invented when we were engaged to signal when we are especially committed to something. We haven't used it in years, and I was touched that he remembered.
3. We had a MC session on Tuesday that went ok. I explained that the underlying issue for me in all of our conflict is H's level of commitment (or lack thereof) to me. H says in the session and again afterward that he is committed to me and he wants me to know it. H asked when I would be free later in the day for him to call and check on me, which he did. He said that he was still processing what we'd talked about in MC but that he wants to talk about how to demonstrate commitment (and teamwork, which he feels like is missing).
4. On Wednesday afternoon he called me out of the blue to say hello and how much he appreciated my patience. That night, he put D7 to bed at my house while I was teaching a class. When I got home, he was asleep on my couch in his pajamas. I wondered momentarily if this was his way of telling me that he would stay the night if I asked, but I decided not to say anything. Instead, I thanked him for being more attentive the past few days. He again thanked me for my patience and asked if we could do something this weekend.
5. Last night while D7 was at a Halloween party we had our date. Initially, we were going to do dinner and a movie, but the movie we wanted to see was smack in the middle of the party and we wouldn't have had time to eat dinner either before or afterward. H asked if I really wanted to see the movie and I said no, that I would prefer to eat dinner and do something else so that we can spend time together and talk. So, we went to dinner and then shopping at the mall together. I tried to wrap things up and he said, "Why don't we have dessert first?" We ended up spending about 3.5 hours together -- great conversation and no R talk. At the end he said, "I had a good time. I'm glad we didn't go to the movies." Yay! for no withdrawal/avoidance on our date.
I feel like we've crossed a threshold this week and are really in piecing. As in, H is actively working on the marriage, not just saying that he wants it to work.
For the first time in a LONG time (even before the S), I told H I needed something and he wasn't defensive. He didn't tell me he was doing the best he could. He didn't say, "I'll do it, but I don't want to." He said, "Yes, I can commit to that."
The backstory: Friday night was "my" night with D7 and we decided to throw a Halloween party for some of her friends before trick or treating. I had discussed this with H a few weeks ago and he said that D7 asked him to stay at his house and hand out candy. I asked if he felt left out and he said no, so I decided not to invite him to the party. However, earlier this week I found out that D7 had invited him and he was planning to come -- which left me in a bit of a pickle.
On the one hand, I wanted him there. I want us to be a family and spending the holidays together is an important part of that, and I didn't want D7 to miss seeing H on Halloween if possible. However, I also know that one of my triggers is feeling ignored by H in social situations. I didn't want his presence to turn my GAL activity into a reminder of how much I've been hurt by him in the past. I didn't want to have to work hard to enjoy my own party.
So, I asked him if he could work on showing me that he is committed by making me feel like I was the most important (adult) person at the party. I was prepared to draw a boundary and ask that he stay home as we had originally discussed if he said he couldn't do that.
But, he said yes. Without any hesitation. And he followed through. It wasn't amazing and it wasn't 100% of what I want, but it was leaps and bounds beyond anything I've gotten from him in a long time, probably close to a year.
We had lunch yesterday and he is just sounding so much more positive. He picked up on the same refrain from the MC, that we'll stumble but if we keep working we will make progress. He is starting to come out of his shell and tell me what he needs from me, other than space. I'm going to come back and post later when I have a little bit more time, because I may need some help figuring out how to demonstrate 180s.
sounds promising. congrats. but the journey isn't over yet. you will need to put in the work for the rest of your lives regardless of how well it may or may not turn out. remember baby steps.
M40 XW35 M11 T15 S9 D5 Bomb 6/3/14 Papers del 10/3/14 D final 12/5/14
I wish I could love you and make you believe it 'Cause that's all you ever wanted From me
