Mindsin - pt. 4 (the countdown begins)

[mindsin]

How about detailing what exactly you DO with them? And I'm not talking about how it relates to your M. Do you take them to the park? Do you get ice cream? Do you comfort them at night, etc.?

You detail every single phone call, word and movement your W makes, yet you don't do the same for your kids.

I do what every normal parent does. I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to this.

[nit84]

JUst butting in with my two Cents Mindsin,

If you focus more of your posts on what you do with your kids you won't be obsessing over what W does as much and it will give you a sense of pride for how well you can do as a single Dad.

Again, just my opinion

[25yearsmlc]

How about detailing what exactly you DO with them? And I'm not talking about how it relates to your M. Do you take them to the park? Do you get ice cream? Do you comfort them at night, etc.?

You detail every single phone call, word and movement your W makes, yet you don't do the same for your kids.

I do what every normal parent does. I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to this.

Mindsin,

what do you mean when you say you are "not sure how any of that is relevant"?

Your children are not relevant to "this"? Yes they are.

Your interactions with them are not relevant? Yes they are.

You snooped a lot. Weirdly, you denied doing so when Bond commented and you insisted that you were only checking her messages "to make sure she was ok" -(instead of calling her on the phone and just asking her??)

But now you admit that in fact you did snoop~ and man

when you snoop you really get into the nitty gritty details of measuring length and frequency of phone calls and competing with OM and the world, I guess, between whomever she calls AND you, etc.

How does this help anything? IF you are verifying for a reason, (Like you'd divorce her if you learned she was still seeing OM, then snooping MIGHT make sense. But you are not doing anything different about it so you are just sabotaging your ego and self esteem.

I almost feel as if you are self flagellating b/c you know you treated her badly and so you deserve this - and that's why you are putting up with it.

I can see the validity of that^^--I really do.

BUT If you want to save the marriage, not so much.

But when others tell you to "STOP SNOOPING and to GAL, and to pay more attention the kids", you get all mysterious and baffled.

Then you asked us how YOUR CHILDREN are "RELEVANT" to this situation... You know they are more than "relevant"...

MIndsin, they are KEY to this situation.

My kids were easily and by far, the biggest single reason I bothered to DB.

Surely yours matter to you - and surely they are at least part of why you are here.

So how can you not see why we are asking you about them?

Let me shed some light on this...

When I was very angry at my h, (for almost a year of my life!)

I spent it spinning AND 1) asking "WHY/WHY?WHY?"

AND OR 2) complaining about how UNFAIR he was,

and or

3) feeling sorry for myself and

then 4) starting the ritual over, "WHY???" and then complaining about unfairness and then self pity and then

RINSE and REPEAT
I had to get off the "beltway and take an exit ramp" soon or I'd lose my mind.

Finally, when I was talking to my older sister and she said I had become a broken record and was getting into a "negative spiral" so that the "Venting is NOT helping", I STOPPED and looked at my behavior without any of my self serving biases...AND

I realized I was NOT fully present for my kids. When they'd talk to me I was usually pre-occupied or somehow relating whatever they said or were doing, to something about H.

"Oh, d8 is in a play. I wonder if H will finally come to see it"
OR

"Oh, d16 wants an IPOD, so I wonder if H will feel guilty enough to get it for her" and I could go on

but essentially EVERYTHING revolved around what I thought/feared/worried that H would do/think/feel/plan....

NOT my kids, NOT MY future, NOT My passions and interests or career (except as it related to h) and NOT anything BUT h.

It was obsessive and unhealthy and UNFAIR to the kids and NOT appealing to my h!
My kids already had lost their dad to Alaska,

so why lose ME to obsessing about him? Why make them emotional orphans?

I worry you may be doing a bit of that.

And in your case, your kids likely missed you a lot a few years ago, if they were old enough to notice your absences when you were with the prostitutes.

OR Maybe they noticed your wife's tears or fury or depression...I can't say b/c I was not there. But they needed you and so did your wife and you were not there, including when she was in labor If I recall right.

NOW, SHE is the one who is AWOL a lot, and leaves you home with them. Like Bond says, two wrongs don't make a right. It simply gives us backstory and explains your wife's choices a lot better than someone without that history.

SIDE NOTE: ((( BTW You mentioned that you "Babysit" but that term struck me as odd. At first I thought other people had dropped their kids off at your house for YOU to care for them, but then I realized they are YOUR kids -- so what you were doing is actually called "parenting".)))



I don't want to speak for others, so I'll say what it is that I'm looking for from you.

1) GAL activities, that do Not ALL relate to your work, or your kids (things YOU enjoy doing that make you more interesting and well rounded as a person, things NOT reminding you of your m or wife, so you are happier AND btw, so you also bring more to the table than your needs, for instance);

AND

2) information about how your children are doing AND how you are becoming a better father to them, specifically;

AND

3) ways you are showing your wife the new you, DONE BY SHOWING HER that;

a) you would be a better/different type of h to HER than before;

and
b) that you now know what a boundary is, i.e., how to set one clearly AND how to enforce it.

Does that^^ help clarify?

One other suggestion, which others have said before but I'll repeat, is to

post about your life, and NOT MENTION your Wife's OM, or his marriage.

and
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when discussing your w, ONLY talk about what she says or does that you saw or KNOW of,

and NOT what you think it means, or your opinion of her thought process.

So, in other words, tell us or Just describe, interactions between you two, NOT what you think she is doing away from you, or OM, or any more predictions about the future, OR your thoughts about OM's wife...

it's one thing to share your fears with us but quite another to pinpoint your future predictions and base present day behavior on what your future projections are...

As for the OM and his wife...I can only say one thing:

I just feel so sorry for that woman! None of us are in a position to judge her, least of all anyone involved in this unusual and very painful situation. IF she's not a breadwinner, then all her emotional pain is coupled with AND complicated by her fears of being on the streets with her kids.
((How terrified and hurt she must be. ))

YOU are not in the same position by a long shot. You have a job for one thing and a very different marital history from what I gather.

So have compassion for HER - but leave her out of your marriage and stay out of hers, okay? I mean, you really do have enough on your plate, emotionally speaking. Correct?

Look MIndsin, you know I think you have damaged your marriage A LOT. I know you know I think that. But I also think you keep coming back here even when it's NOT easy, and I believe that is because you are sincere in wanting to change your life.

I think you are realizing that means changing YOURSELF and as hard as that is, I think you want, to want it...

so for that I commend you. Stay the course, keep on keeping on and remember most of all to LISTEN - and be ready to Keep your mouth closed. The more you listen - the more YOU learn.

You don't learn when you are speaking (and believe me, I have to remind myself of that, a lot!)

Good luck
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[MrBond]

"I do what every normal parent does."

And what is that? Surely not all parents go out, have affairs and then allows their spouse to.

"I'm not sure how any of that is relevant to this."

Because itʻs a part of GAL. Because it helps you to become a better man. Because it makes you a better person. Because all you do is question the advice given to you rather than doing it.

[mindsin]

When it comes to my children, I feel that I have always been a good father to them (yes, even during my years of infidelity). Like I have outlined before, my trysts were rarely in conflict with time I spent with my wife, or my family. They were usually during the work day (when my wife 'thought' I was at work), and NEVER on the weekends.

I read to them consistently every night. I bath them, help them with their homework, help them get dressed, talk to them about their day and the many life questions that they have for me. We have sing-alongs, we dance around the house, we play and run in our yard. I take my son to soccer. I take them to the pediatrician, the dentist, the playground, to birthday parties.

NONE of this has really changed (before or after BD), except I'm doing more of it now, due to my W being less and less available.

After BD, I have made myself even MORE emotionally available to them because they are the primary driving force for me saving my marriage. I have never cried in front of them. I have never sulked, or shown bitterness (regarding my W) in front of them. To them, I am still the happy silly dad I've always been. The only thing that has changed in their minds is that their mom has not been around as much. My 7 year old boy even asked me about it. I told him that mom works a lot to make money for the family.

So you see, this is what I meant by "what every normal parent does", because I don't think I'm doing anything extraordinary -- good or bad. My children are completely shielded from what's going on because more than ever, I'm watching and listening to them on a constant basis -- making sure their needs are met first and foremost.

[MrBond]

That's not what we meant. Just detail your daily interactions with them here.

I find it interesting that you find it easy to detail every little interaction with your W here but when it comes to your kids, you sound very businesslike with no emotion whatsoever.

[1foot2]

I think you guys might be coming down hard on mindsin. I recognize the need for tough love here, but I take him at his word when he says he is doing the generally unremarkable daily things one does for their kids. He's not on a forum for parenting advice, he's here to save his M. 25s advice is well stated, however I think it's wrong to pounce on his usage of the word "relevant". I don't believe he said that to imply that they don't matter, only that discussing his daily interactions with them isn't of the most importance, since he is striving to make that an area of consistency through DBing.

It is true however, mindsin, that obsessing over the details of your Ws phone patterns gets you nowhere. I know because I struggle with things like this as well.

[claire7]

I think the point Mr Bond and 25years (or at least I'll speak for myself that the point *I*) was trying to make is that paying more attention (and writing more) to what you are doing with your kids, Mindsin, or any other GAL activity will help you stop obsessing over your W and her OM.

The point is that you are focusing on the wrong thing-- not yourself.

DBing may or may not save your M, but it will save you if you follow it. Detailing your W's phone records, and paying such close attention to what she is doing or saying is NOT DBing.

[1foot2]

Agreed. And it's vital advice. But the implication was that he was neglecting his kids. The purpose of this forum is a safe space to vent about fixations (yes many of them unhealthy) we have with our WAS so that those emotions don't bleed over into our interactions with our families.

[25yearsmlc]

what Claire said^^^