Mindsin - pt. 4 (the countdown begins)

[mindsin]

New Phone

So I've been shopping for a new phone/plan, as required for my new job (they reimburse).

Since this incident, my W has expressed her desire to change the existing family phone plan to her name (because her parents' two phone lines are on it and she wanted to take ownership, since we're "separated" now).

I told her that I wanted to get my new line added to our existing family plan. She asked why I don't just open up my own new plan. I said, I could but there's no sense in me paying an extra $80/month. She replied, OK that's fine.

Later, I e-mailed her that I purchased a new phone and I told her the changes in the plan as a result of it. It's a shared data plan.

She simply replied, I'm not sure 4GB is enough, but we can always add more.

So she's never brought up the plan ownership change again, and it looks like she has allowed me back into her (still mine) wireless family plan. I'll take any positive sign at this point, even as small as this.

[rd500]

Hi. Just read through your posts and I can see your progression over the pages of posts You sitch is very hard knowing about the om and I feel your pain. I hope you continue to grow and you end up where you want to be.

[mindsin]

Adding back some deleted posts

This was from 9/19:

You both have been very wounded in this marriage and that's a shame. It's great that she now doesn't regret it all, b/c of the kids and I think that is healthy. I hope the kids will always know that they were the reason she hung in there so long, and the reason you are trying now to keep it together. (IOW, They are NOT factors in the marital problems)


I think you have to stop the pursuit but I also don't think you will take that advice. so it's more damage control than a real strategy now.

Just try to show her she can relax around you and you do that most by NOT having any expectations of her, at all. Just enjoy the evening together. It's okay to discuss the kids (being the best father you can be to them is a HUGE factor in your favor so don't skimp on that!)

but make sure you also connect on other levels. Ask her questions about her dreams and ideal career goals and anything OTHER THAN OM or his poor wife...

Clearly, your w wants an equal partner in the financial responsibilities area, so I'd project the attitude of a man who :IS more career oriented than she sees you as being. Admit your priorities needed changing and HAVE BEEN CHANGED and you look forward to the advancement possibilities you see at the new job (and remind her that you DO Value her input and insights and will probably discuss those things with her in the future as it benefits your chidden and each other...and leave out talk about the future. Read those newbie "Rules" again if you must.

Compliment her authentically and specifically BUT then move on in the conversation , don't act as if you are waiting for her reaction/gratitude etc. Again, no expectations. Just a fun easy going night at home. The more relaxed around you she can be, the easier it'll be to spend time together and maybe build on that.

It seems to me that career ambitions are one of the attractions she feels toward OM. (What do you think she meant when she said you and OM's wife are alike?)

And though you put her thru hell awhile back, ( & more than once), at some point you will need to be LESS available as her back up plan.

Ask your DB coach for more advice about that^^^ and her "Long term plans"...

AND please take the advice given to you by the DB coach, or at least don't blame the DB approach for not working - when you are not working the DB program.

The program can work IF you work the program. Make sense?

Good luck.

[mindsin]

Another deleted post from 9/19

I don't know what others say, but her asking you to dinner is nice

but he pursued her way too much, esp after she reminded him that even without the OM in the picture, she is NOT coming back to him. She sounded resolute in her emails and the more he asks her details and plans, the more she cements them in her mind/heart.

That is ANOTHER reason for you, Mindskins, to back the heck OFF and stop being so clingy and needy for reassurance at a time when she's in NO MOOD to reassure you of her devotion at all.

SHE IS DONE (or she thinks she is) so stop solidifying that in her by asking her how she feels....way way too soon.

You need a year of new changed behavior before she'll believe it's real and even then it may not be enough.

Demonstrate how DIFFERENT you are now, not with more of the same.


As for her "invitation" it came off to me as more of a concession than an invite. He practically begged her to throw him a bone.

Just take it easy tonight Mind, please don't let your future or your heart hinge on how the evening goes. IF there are no hurtful words exchanged and a few laughs shared, consider that a victory.

And call your DB coach next time you want to reach out and pursue her again or post here....

GOOD LUCK!

[mindsin]

Addressing one of 25's questions from 9/19

25 -- Regarding how the OMW and I are alike. My W said that we're both very emotional people and at times very reactionary. She said that the difference with me is that I am very rational and logical (as opposed to the OMW). She also said that I am the type of person with a big heart and wants to help people. She said it's that part of me that she fell in love with, which it was so hard for her to fathom how I could possibly betray her for those 5 years.

[mindsin]

Posted after the dinner on 9/19

Keep in mind this was from a week ago, so it precedes the posts from page #1 of this thread.

Dinner

Dinner was very nice. We talked, laughed, joked. It was overall fun. I can tell that she is very stressed out and she asked if it would be OK if she takes a week off to visit a friend (3000 miles away). She said that she just needs to get away from everything before she starts her new job. She said she wants to get away from me, from the kids, and even [OM].

She will be staying with a male friend (they're not close by any means). This male friend went through a D about 10 years ago after he found his W cheating on him.

My W said that she recognizes that her two friends and cousin (all of which whom she revealed the situation to) would be biased towards her. She wants to get a more neutral opinion on the situation from someone who is not a close friend, and she wants to get it from a man's perspective.

After dinner, we went back home. She said she is upset about something and needs to talk. It turns out that she looked through my phone that night and saw some text messages from me to the OMW. The text messages read:

"My W told me that she called you yesterday. She thinks that most of what you told me may have been simply 'wishful thinking'. I was very vulnerable this week due to the two major days and I somewhat regret we had our conversations. I truly hope that things work out for you, but I realize now that our conversations, while helpful in some ways, can also be counter-productive in other ways. It gives us both false hope, and goes against the one thing that we must focus on -- and that is ourselves. Hang in there. I know God has a plan for you to be happy, even if it is unclear right now."

My W was upset that I felt the need to tell her about the "wishful thinking" part. She also reiterated to me, that while she recognizes that the OMW was the one who reached out to me, that I did not need to engage her the way I did. She said she would have respected me a lot more if I had simply told her that she had contacted me, and told her that I wanted to engage her, before actually doing so.

The bottom line is that she doesn't feel safe around me and is afraid to tell me anything, because she doesn't trust that I can keep things between us (and especially not shared with the OMW). She said she is tired of the 'behind the back'.

I then tried to open up to her about why I can't fully trust her in this situation. I told her that I am very aware of how smart she is, and how she is such a careful planner, calculating all of her moves, and being 2 or 3 moves ahead of me at all times. It's scary. And because of the situation we're in, I'm scared of what is in store for our future.

I pointed out to her one thing she said to me which frightened me. After the 1st time I contacted the OMW, my W said to me, "We had her under control until you set her off".

I told her that I was thinking, if you're insinuating that you're controlling her, how do I know you're not controlling me? How do I know your words and actions are genuine, and not just a ploy to keep me calm while you systematically break our family apart?

I said, "I want nothing more than to open myself to you and trust you, but how can I while you're in an A, and have plans to destroy my family (and theirs)?"

She was absolutely speechless. She walked away, and said to me (on her way out), "After 19 years, that's what you think of me. Cold and calculated."

My texted her shortly after she left the house.

Me: [i]"That's what I get for trying to be open and honest about my feelings. Thanks for making me feel comfortable sharing my vulnerable side with you. SMH"

W: "I am overly disappointed you would think that I am a calculated person when it comes to treating people. This is our fundamental problem. You never trusted the way I perceive people. You would rather think the worst of me, like my dealings with your parents. It brought back bad images. Nothing good will come out of us continuing to talk tonight. I don't want to ruin tomorrow. Let's talk when I am cooled off."

It's clear that even though she's in an A, that all she wants from me is honesty and loyalty. And that's all I want to give back to her. But how can I be loyal to someone who is not being loyal to me? I'm so confused.

[MrBond]

"It's clear that even though she's in an A, that all she wants from me is honesty and loyalty. And that's all I want to give back to her. "

You shouldn't when it comes to the A. Stop defending her actions. You can validate how and why she got to that point, but don't tell her she's correct in doing the A. AND stop treating the OMW as an enemy. She's a woman just as scared as you are (if not more) who is trying to save her family.

One thing I've always wondered in your posts is that all you talk about is your W. Where are your kids? How are you interacting with them? How are they feeling about all of this?

[mindsin]

I don't think I treat the OMW as an enemy, but it seems my W does (naturally). It's so difficult because if I defend the OMW, my W sees it as me showing allegiance to some other woman. My W wants me to put her first. She wants me to show her that I am loyal to her, even during these times. I'm so conflicted when it comes to this.

My kids are very well shielded from this situation. I am spending more time with them now than I have before and I am become a much better father. I never say anything disparaging about my W to them, and I have done more than my share of "covering up" for my W's late night trysts and weekend getaways with the OM. I realize that I should have set that boundary early on and not allow her to simply use me as "free babysitting" while she goes out. I think she would have been put in a much more difficult situation if she was forced to ask her parents to watch the kids while she goes off with the OM.

Thankfully, I believe that this is over (not the A, but the late night trysts, 2 or 3 times per week), since now the OM lives 2000 miles away and at best (according to both my W and the OMW), he will be coming back every two weeks.

My W has no plans to move down there, so I have no idea where their R will end up.

[JCred]

Thankfully, I believe that this is over (not the A, but the late night trysts, 2 or 3 times per week), since now the OM lives 2000 miles away and at best (according to both my W and the OMW), he will be coming back every two weeks.

My W has no plans to move down there, so I have no idea where their R will end up.

So your wife has no plans to move down there?... However this is what you told us in July.... Your wife told you she has every intention of following him. Something isn't making sense here....

A few more pieces of information.

- The OM (co-worker) is her boss. They can both get in serious trouble if this is found out and it could put a black eye on their careers.

- The OM recently received a job offer which will locate him out of state. WAW indicated previously that she has every intention of following him, but only after a year (she would need to get things settled here -- selling the house, etc.). She indicated that it is 99.9% certain that he will accept the job. Shortly, he will be flying down there and they will be physically separated for several months. He will be flying back occasionally only to see my WAW and his kids.

4. Not putting in my fair share into the relationship. She always the giver, I was the taker.

Your wife is a giver, which is more reason to believe she may be willing to follow the OM...

Your wife "says" she is also taking a week off to go on a vacation 3000 miles away.... OM JUST left to start new job, 2000 miles away.... Your wife told you she was leaving Friday and then changed it to Thursday telling you she going with her "GF but wouldn't leave you any details.. ????? Your wife told you she dropped off her car at her Father's and had her father drive her over to her GF's house.... (why did she just not go to GF's house and leave her car there???????)Your wife says she is going 3000 miles away to talk to a male friend and stay with him to figure out some things.... A friend she hasn't seen in???? How many years??? 3000 miles away???

Big red flags here.. You are really being naive.. I would say that your wife and OM have this all planned and that she is meeting him...... 2+2=4......

You aren't seeing what is really going on here are you?
You and the OM's wife are getting played here... Sorry to have to tell you this, but again... 2+2=4....

[mindsin]

So I've been nosing through the wireless usage logs again. It started because my W didn't tell me where she was going, and I was simply concerned for her. I wanted to see that she was making calls /texts to verify that she was safe (where she is).

I know that this qualifies as snooping, but this is my wireless plan that she is on, so I feel entitled (right or wrong).

In my "research", I learned that she went on a road trip to a place that is about 14 hours away in the central timezone. Knowing where she went, there is absolutely no reason (that I can think of) that she needed to keep this from me.

I also learned that the last time she spoke with the OM was on 9/24 (nearly 5 days ago). She did text him a couple of times (the last one on 9/27) and it was surprising that it showed up on the usage details. My W has an iPhone and I suspect the OM did too (because those texts never logged in the usage reports). iPhone to iPhone messages go through iMessage. It's encrypted, and is not logged as a text message. Because of this, I never knew when or how often she texted him except for the times I saw her pecking away on the phone to him, or I saw her phone lying around with incoming messages from the OM unanswered.

This new piece of evidence suggests that the OM transferred his existing number to a new phone (that is not an Apple product), and it coincides with him joining this new company and starting his new role.

I hold my W in high regard and as someone of great integrity. It's one thing to stray from your H because you are unhappy in the marriage, or in my case, was betrayed. It's a completely separate thing to engage in a romantic relationship with a married man. I KNOW my W knows how wrong this is, even though she feels "entitled". After all, even if she were a single woman, shacking up with a married man is neither ethical or moral by any standards. She knows this. I think it's her sense of integrity that I'm hoping is finally breaking through the fog.

One thing she said to me 10 days ago is starting to ring in my head.

On one of the recent overnight stays, the OMW called my W and expressed how hurt she was. My W told the OM that he needs to go back home to his W.

I said to her, "Do you see how twisted that sounds? OMW needs YOUR permission for her H to come home to her."

She replied, "Well obviously I need to do that, don't I."

It's as if she has this attitude of "I can please your H like you (OMW) never could."

It's unfathomable to me how she could feel good about stealing another woman's H away from her. Maybe she just came off like that in the heat of conversation, and I never really gave it much thought -- until now. I'm not sure why.

Aside from all this drama, I feel like I've been making great strides in my personal growth and my "DB skills" are improving all the time.

I also feel that I have her parents in my corner, backing me up and giving me advice and keeping me hopeful. They've expressed that they sense their daughter is more confused than ever and she has come to them (especially her father) more and more over the past few weeks than before. Previously, she was avoiding them, and avoiding any talks regarding the OM, or me. Obviously I can't rely on them, but I don't probe them. I stopped doing that a while ago. It is they who come to me and feed me information and give me motivational talks.

I feel like it's only a matter of time before this A fizzles out. It may have fizzled out anyway, but the physical separation just accelerates the process. They will go from seeing each other every day to seeing each other once every two weeks (at most).

So many things are going in my way that I feel that there is an excellent chance that my W will eventually come around. I just need to stay patient and stay the course. This is a marathon, and I should expect setbacks. I have to keep reminding myself that.