Newbie Error- LRT too Soon- help!

[Starsky309]

I also am struggling with how to police similar boundaries without snooping- for example W's phone remains locked and with joint finances, she can easily hide in cash or ambiguous charges a good amount of spend if she wishes to, so I couldn't police your type of boundaries (just an example here- I know I have to figure out my own boundries but it's hard for me to understand how to do that with a lying WAW).

I'm a big "trust -- but verify" guy, so you do need to be able to verify. If snooping is killing your ability to detach, or just simply making you crazy, there are some things you can do. You can only look at your intel at some predetermined interval for you . . .say, once per month, or once every-other week. Or, you can enlist the help of a trusted friend or family member who is discreet and you can have THEM monitor your intel, and only inform you of any immediate threats to your family, your finances or your health, and instead just prepare a monthly "executive summary"-type document for you.

There are ways. Snooping is frowned upon because it will make you nuts, and it gets in the way of detaching. But you DO need to have ways to protect yourself and your family.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

Here's Coach's (RIP, old friend) thread on boundaries. Like most of his stuff, it's excellent.


Coach, on "Boundaries"

[Bart42]

Thanks again starsky- I'll do some thinking on boundaries and read that thread tonight.

[Bart42]

So the latest:
Decided I would take some time and GAL, interview some lawyers, and figure out what I wanted the rest of my life with my kids to look like, as those were the only things I could control. Didn’t get that far as I also decided to lay down a boundary that our household money would not be used to support her A. So I asked that she set up her own bank account and arrange for direct deposit and we could work on an allocation of family/household expenses to be paid by each of us. W doesn’t want separate accounts because “it doesn’t bring us closer together” (cake eater!) and naturally, because “there is no A- it’s over.”
Conversation was civil, I was short and simply restated my position that I was not interested in rehashing old arguments and that I am unwilling to live in an open marriage. Said I didn’t want to take unilateral action and initiate a divorce, but will have no choice if we can’t agree to work together. Conversation ended in an “agreement” to see a mediator to work on a formal separation. That was yesterday.
W calls today to tell me how mediation is a waste of time and money because neither one of us wants the marriage to end and there is no A for her to end. Didn’t bite and told her we either agree to do this together or we fight about it and give our money to lawyers. Now she’s delaying by claiming she can’t make the date I set up with a mediator work with her schedule. I’ll keep asking W daily for dates with the mediator and use this week to sit down with a few attorneys. Will also try to go dark, but the kids and one house are complicating factors.
Knowing her personality, even in the unlikely even she actually ends the A, she’s unlikely to ever admit it continued in the first place, making it unlikely we will avoid separation/divorce because there will never be that honest discussion from which to move forward. But without truth, some remorse, and a solid base of transparency (coupled with no contact, unlocked phone, etc.) I don’t think I will ever be able to move on- but that’s her choice. It will be a shame, because I truly believe in her heart she is conflicted and doesn’t know whether to go with me or OM/divorce, but I also don’t have confidence she will agree to open herself up to me to the extent required to save the M because she is such a private person and doesn’t really trust anybody but herself ion the end of the day.
In the meantime, I’m thinking about me, my kids, and GAL (but that’s hard to do).

[MrBond]

" But without truth, some remorse, and a solid base of transparency (coupled with no contact, unlocked phone, etc.) I don’t think I will ever be able to move on- but that’s her choice. "

No. That's YOUR choice.

[Starsky309]

" But without truth, some remorse, and a solid base of transparency (coupled with no contact, unlocked phone, etc.) I don’t think I will ever be able to move on- but that’s her choice. "

No. That's YOUR choice.

True, but I think it's also a perfectly healthy (and reasonable) boundary. But yeah, he should own the boundary and then she needs to own her choice. Neither controls the other.

[JCred]

Here is MY opinion.... (based on my own observations and experience)

More than likely she isn't sure what she wants to do because the OM hasn't left his GF. Deep down she isn't really sure he will leave her even though that is what he probably has promised. This is typical of men in affairs. They usually don't leave their wife (or GF) unless the OW has such power over him that she tells him he can't have HER as long as he is still married. The OM will then tell his wife he wants to separate (this buys him time with both women) so that he can see where it goes with the OW. Meanwhile he is usually cake eating with his wife and also stringing her AND the OW along as long as they will play along (and MANY DO)... (Sound familiar?)

I would think that if he left his GF, then she would be pushing to separate with you instead of saying she doesn't want to.

By the OM not leaving the GF, this is GOOD for your cause.
I highly doubt that when push comes to shove that he will leave the GF. I would guess that your wife secretly knows deep down inside that this is true.

So, that being the case.. Your plan to separate is actually going to work against you the way you are going about it. It would give your wife a chance to see where things are going with the OM while she STILL keeps stringing you along hoping she comes to her senses. She will keep telling you she doesn't know what she wants as long as he is in the picture.
She will throw you just enough crumbs and time and effort to keep you right where she wants you.... We then will see you keep stating new or renewed boundaries again and again and again because you won't or can't face the TRUE BOUNDARY that she needs to hear to turn her thoughts from the OM back to you.....
For a perfect example, please go read Tarheel's thread in detail...


Here is how I am reading you....

"Wife, I love you and want to make this work, but I am hoping if I tell you that I won't share, that this will wake you up or scare you into coming back to me. I "am demanding"
that you have NC, and also blah, blah, blah along with complete transparency. (the whole key here is making the mistake of letting her keep thinking that you still love her and will let her come back IF.. this or IF that... All the while she keeps right on doing what she secretly wants to do while learning how to get around your so called boundaries.)


I don't see this as usually working as a plan when it comes across as a demand. I realize that YOU think it is coming across as a "boundary"... I don't see it that way and I doubt your wife does either. It still comes across as controlling. Why? Because it is controlling.

You want my opinion on a boundary?
Since you won't stop seeing the OM and keep lying to me about it, then I AM DIVORCING YOU.... and then file and do it..confident,strong, firm, decisive (things women on here keep telling us they can't resist in a man.. right?).....

Or is that too strong for her or too hard to understand? or does that scare YOU into thinking she will take you up on it? Isn't that really the boundary when you get down to it?

So, the question is.. How do you do the boundary thing without coming across as controlling to HER?

I think a person needs to add a few different words to your boundary. Just a few words phrased differently make all the difference in how it is perceived by the WS. Perception is reality...

For example.. You told us this...

W doesn’t want separate accounts because “it doesn’t bring us closer together” (cake eater!) and naturally, because “there is no A- it’s over.”
Conversation was civil, I was short and simply restated my position that I was not interested in rehashing old arguments and that I am unwilling to live in an open marriage. Said I didn’t want to take unilateral action and initiate a divorce, but will have no choice if we can’t agree to work together. Conversation ended in an “agreement” to see a mediator to work on a formal separation. That was yesterday.

Now... IF you had changed it to something like this....
(I made the changes in red that I would suggest have more of an impact on her to show her you mean business and to get her to start thinking the correct thoughts.... which SHOULD be

"have I gone too far and have I lost him for good?"

(Convince her that you mean that is when you will find her coming back on YOUR terms without you having to demand a thing...)

Here is my suggestion..

W doesn’t want separate accounts because “it doesn’t bring us closer together” (cake eater!) and naturally, because “there is no A- it’s over.”
Conversation was civil, I was short and simply restated my position that I was not interested in rehashing old arguments and that I am unwilling to live in an open marriage and that now my feelings have changed and I am not sure how I feel about her anymore. Said I didn’t want to take unilateral action and initiate a divorce, but I have been doing some thinking and I have decided that we can't work together and that this really isn't what I want in a relationship, let alone a marriage. It suddenly hit me that I don't want to be with someone who I don't trust, who lies to me and doesn't act like they really want to be with me and me alone and I realized that I am not sure what I want now or how I feel about you either. So, I have decided that it is best that we separate. I need some time. I have contacted my lawyer and I will let you know what my plans are after I have discussed this with him.

[Bart42]

Since you won't stop seeing the OM and keep lying to me about it, then I AM DIVORCING YOU.... and then file and do it..confident, strong, firm, decisive (things women on here keep telling us they can't resist in a man.. right?)..... Isn't that really the boundary when you get down to it?

Thanks, Justin- strong words to be sure but I do see the lure. The flip side as I see it is the whole DB mantra of giving a WAW time to come out of the fog, one month per year of marriage for changes to be “believed” and that many men rush into divorce too soon. I see your post as more “Love Must Be Tough” than “Divorce Remedy”- and yours may be the correct course, just noting the differences. The other component is trying to lay down boundaries that are short of "I want a Divorce."

In my case (forgive the mindreading) I agree with you that deep down W knows the 30 year old party boy OM isn’t her long term answer, but she isn’t thinking long term and is addicted to him and the excitement of the A. She’s been asking OM to leave GF for months and (surprise!) it hasn’t happened yet.

W called again today (before I read your post) again wanting to delay so she can find some way to prove to me the A is over- I steered the conversation away from “stop lying, end the A and work with me on the M” to a statement that any relationship must be based on respect and trust and that continuing to disrespect me and our M and perpetuating lies isn’t a foundation I can build a relationship on. I see this more as a boundary than a demand, and for the record I have never demanded transparency, remorse, etc.- I would only address those things if and when I believed she has made a firm commitment to leave OM and try to save the M but never before- otherwise I agree they are hollow demands.

Divorce is going to be complicated given intermingled finances, kids, crazy kids schedules, etc., so I’m already thinking that my ask for mediation is going to be a separation plan where the purpose isn’t to give us time to think but is instead to provide the basis for an amicable divorce. I know W will not go for that, which will likely lead to a stalemate for a few weeks while I get details squared away with a lawyer, but I’m doing all I can to keep this civil and avoid a damaging legal battle.

[Arcola]

Starsky
I've finally found some insight into how you handled your situation. I'm not as a "no nonsense" type of guy as you are, so boundaries have come difficult for me to setup. Given my personality, I think I'm moving in the "let her free" move, but still need to detach physically. Anyway, great post. And Bart42 based on your title and your posts I read a few weeks ago, the LRT isnt too soon. I'm a few months into my sitch, and LRT about month and half ago and NOTHING happened, except the 2nd day she decided to be all chit chatty via email while we were at work.

[Bart42]

Thanks, Arcola. It's taken me a long time to calm down and not be so emotional, and am slowly detaching, but I am still thinking too much about her. Even my attorney during our initial consultation noted that I seem to be mentioning W more than my wants and needs. Its getting easier though. Still hard, but easier. Anyway, we meet with a divorce mediator today, so we'll see how that goes- its just an initial consult, so I'm not expecting too much but I'm doubtful W is going to agree to give up her cake eating and do this without lawyers.

I still haven't decided if I want a S or just do the D:

Separate: I'd still like to think there is a small chance to save the M, although at this point with all the deceit I'm not sure I could ever trust her again. I'd have to move out immediately, and I think I still need some time to detach and build my going forward life. Higher cost as legally speaking it is almost two divorce processes.

Divorce: Will take 6-12 months and will allow me to stay with my kids in the home for as long as I want to. However, lots of costs that will be wasted in the slim chance this turns around. But, we've got a good amount of assets and the sooner I file the better the legal protections for me.

Its been pretty dark around here this week, and I am travelling for work all next week. I guess W and I are just going to have to talk about this, because paying a mediator or a lawyer to negotiate for us is just throwing money out the window. I just need to figure out what I want first.

Meanwhile, the GAL continues- last night at dinner (in front of kids where W and I are pleasant and pretend its a happy home) W asked both about me reconnecting with an old friend I am seeing this weekend and brought up a class I signed up for- so maybe she's noticing I'm making plans on my future, but I doubt the A has ended, so in the end of the day it doesn't matter- gotta just focus on me.