too late?

[LoveMyW]

Jim, I'm no vet so I can't really offer you much more advice than the others have, but one thing I will say is that the reason you probably don't see many stories of success in marriages being restored is that most people who come here for help, then end up restoring their M generally wouldn't come back afterwards..

Not saying everyone is like that, and there are examples here of those who have done it, and continue helping others, but the general population probably wouldn't bother as their M is back in shape and more than likely don't want their H or W to know their secret..

That's my thought anyway..

[claire7]

There have been a few recent examples of relationships moving towards reconciliation.

But more importantly, as someone very wisely told me when I first got here... DBing is for you. .. you may or may not save your marriage, but you will definitely save yourself if you follow it. Making needed changes in yourself, and getting through this with dignity and grace-- that's success, whatever happens with your M.

[jim0987]

You make a lot of sense LoveMyW

Ive definitely decided that the things that have caused problems in my M are things I need to change for my own happiness.

[Hoju]

Sorry to see you here Jim. it sounds like you really love your wife and put a lot of effort into trying to please her.

What things would she complain about you? I assume it's more then just insecurity.

Also, you should pick up "5 love languages" maybe you've just simply been communicating your love in the wrong ways. Consider seeing an IC for your emotional issues they really can help you to open up.

[jim0987]

I really love her I'm just not sure I ever showed her in the right way. The 5 love languages might be worth checking.

My 1st IC session is next week. These insecurities have done too much damage and I want them gone.

Plenty of complaints she would make but not all of them fair. For example 'you never do the laundry but whenever I do she says I've done it wrong.

I think the main/core complaints she would have Would be:
- that she thinks I don't care about her problems (because Im quiet and concentrate on the practical)
- that I make everything about me (which I realise I do)
- that I don't trust her (which I've never understood)
- that we always do things my way and do what I want. (I felt like we either did what sge wanted or agreed a compromise but it seems like she felt it was better to avoid the argument)
- that when im in a bad mood I tend to make little sarcastic and unpleasant comments (I do this but I've always tried to control I guess I didn't do a good enough job)

Actually looking at this list it makes me realise I must have been pretty horrible to be with.

[bdub]

That is a really good list of potential 180s for you jim. Get going, make yourself a better person.

[jim0987]

Definitely aiming for that. hopefully the IC will help me to control the comments and the 'all about me'

[25yearsmlc]

Sorry for the length of this, but I included your post and went paragraph by paragraph so its a little shorter than it looks. Anyhow, here we go...

I really love her I'm just not sure I ever showed her in the right way. The 5 love languages might be worth checking.

If you are at all unsure if you showed her love in the right way, then the "Five Love Languages" is mandatory to read. I suggest it for ALL couples, not just ones who are here.

Once you have read the Div Busting book and or the Div Remedy book (those are the books that form the basis of this site's approach, and is foundational to read. You really HAVE to read the DB books to "get" what we preach here).

Have you read either of those?

If not, please start there, and then I'd go to the 'Five LL's' by Chapman, and then there are other books... but I'd need to know more about your to know which to suggest next.

For now, you have the DB book(s) to read and then the Five LL's, and we'll go from there when you are done, okay?


My 1st IC session is next week. These insecurities have done too much damage and I want them gone.

Sounds like you know one thing to start working on already. That's a good start.

Also, I hope your counselor is "Solution based", b/c we are here. That means in part that we don't keep harping about our childhood and how deficient our parents were, or a whole lot about the past. But that is still very important!

But HERE, we are trying to improve our marriages NOW and so, we focus mostly on doing what helps the relationship now, and doing none (or less) of what hurts it.

The analysis of why and how we all got here, is for other experts (maybe your IC??)
I know it sounds simple and it is, but it's still radically different from a lot of other approaches.

I figure knowng WHY we do something can be very helpful, but if that is all we do, i.e. understand it, and not change it, then the knowledge is wasted.

We must DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY to change. No more of the "same old" stuff.
But note, this changing does not always require understanding or why or how we got where we are;

For instance, sometimes it simply means we must "stop losing our tempers!", not keep wringing our hands and asking "why do we keep losing it?" Does that make sense?


Plenty of complaints she would make but not all of them fair. For example 'you never do the laundry but whenever I do she says I've done it wrong.

I think the main/core complaints she would have Would be:
- that she thinks I don't care about her problems (because Im quiet and concentrate on the practical)


No, not b/c you are "quiet and practical"....You yourself SAID in your posts that you have not given her emotional support, you were not supportive to her even when her father died. That's not a small thing. And that wasn't about you being too quiet or practical. Don't skimp or gloss over your errors or it'll take longer to work them out.

On this page of your thread you said you love her BUT "didn't know how to show her"...and "did not love her in the right way" and then you said the book on Five Love Languages "might be worth looking into"...to me that was such an ironic understatement.

OF course it's worth looking into! If I had written what you wrote about not knowing how to show my h that I love him, and a book was out there that deals with this exact topic, I'd have changed the screen on my computer to order the book online or I'd have gone to a store and gotten it, that day.

Your hesitation was interesting but also frustrating. What do you make of it?

Also, You admitted not being there for her in a dozen different ways, so I don't know why you are now saying it's b/c you are quiet. Or practical.

What does that even mean?


- that I make everything about me (which I realise I do)

so steer the talks back to the other person, even if your instincts are to "share" your perspective; it'll probably just look self centered. Take the "interviewer" perspective and begin asking others for THEIR thoughts or experiences and how THEY feel about something.
Don't start a sentence with "I/ME/MYSELF" unless directly asked...okay? Those are just ideas to help you focus on the other parties and not turn it inward to yourself.

- that I don't trust her (which I've never understood)


You mean you don't understand WHY you don't trust her -- OR you don't understand why she says you don't trust her?

From what I read, your insecurities are so great that you assume she would not be loyal to you, b/c you are not worthy of loyalty or fidelity...is that possible?

The ironic thing is, when we let fear direct our lives, we often bring about the very event we most fear into existence.

In other words, think of a super jealous insecure woman who constantly snoops on her husband's phone, or "surprises" him at work really just to check on him

or she doubts his reasons for being late from work, etc....So, when she outright accuses him of being with other women, he gets upset and tired of it.

But when she persists and his reassurances fall on deaf ears, it's possible that she gets MORE possessive and a tad more crazy, and a lot harder to be around...

so she in effect pushes him into the arms of OW...and then He might say "See! I was right to be jealous!" But in reality he was the CAUSE of her infidelity, not the victim of it. Do you see that?

Don't let fear dictate how you'll live, b/c the best you can ever achieve then, is less fear but no real happiness. Plus fear is a huge barrier to giving and receiving love. I think you can attest to that.


- that we always do things my way and do what I want. (I felt like we either did what sge wanted or agreed a compromise but it seems like she felt it was better to avoid the argument)


Fwiw, what matters most is NOT who is "right" but perception, and the willingness to change.

Her PERCEPTION is that you always get your way, perhaps b/c in her recall, she thinks of all the conflict avoidance she did to ease tension. Rather than going thru your marital history to "Count" who got what when, as if that's possible anyhow, instead focus on the time "from this day forward."

Good news here is that ^^^ this is sort of an easy 180, b/c times WILL arise when you two have to make choices.

So when she sees you compromising or giving in to her wants more, that will be clear. And in time, reciprocated.


- that when im in a bad mood I tend to make little sarcastic and unpleasant comments (I do this but I've always tried to control I guess I didn't do a good enough job)

So you take out your mood onto other people. "Always tried to control this"....well yes I should think so.

Try not to minimize this b/c what it translates to is that you can be a bully (like the guy who gets chewed out at work, and then kicks his dog at home)

and or, it can translate into you being a nasty guy with a mean & critical side to him. Either way, it's unfair to your loved ones.

Since you admit that you do this "but" you thought you controlled it, it's probably fair to say, "no" you did not control it b/c if you recognize it

and she says it happened,

chances are it did...and a lot more than you probably care to remember...

Actually looking at this list it makes me realise I must have been pretty horrible to be with.

Okay fair enough. Let's say it's ALL true, and you were a nasty piece of work to be around...let's say it is all completely true.

So is it hopeless? NO.

The GOOD NEWS is that you seem to have gotten here pretty much by yourself, which means you are NOT helpless in this. (B/C if she had a ton of flaws to work on, which you have zero control over, it'd be much harder to do. Do you get why?)

Your behaviors got you here, so YOUR NEW behaviors CAN get you out of it.

NEWSFLASH I'll write down here, what the worst possible thing to hear from a marriage counselor is, and it will shock you.

THE WORST thing a counselor could say to you is

"You have been a perfect partner and husband and father."......


Why and How is that so bad to hear?

B/C it would mean you're powerless to do anything b/c You are already perfect and yet, she left anyway.

There'd be Nothing for you to do...except fear/panic that you'll always be getting left behind,, b/c even when you were perfect, your woman chose to leave you...

but when you can sit and list the mistakes you made and recognize, then there IS hope.

You are NOT powerless b/c you can change you!

And you are the only person you can change. So figure out a list of 180s and begin those.

Then Begin to GAL too...have you read the books so I can know if the "jargon" we use will need more translation...? GAL means to Get A Life...

Let us know if you read the book, so we can figure out where to start with you but DO read those books if you have not already.

Also how old are you, the kids and your wife? And what are your finances like and your jobs and educational levels?
Are either or both of you religious and or do you believe in a higher power, or God or a positive force in the universe, or are you agnostic, or adamantly atheist?

And Why did you take so long to get married if you had your daughter so many years earlier? Was it b/c of doubts you (each) had?

And last but not least, what were you like when you first met?

Who were you when she fell in love with you? How have you changed?
Can you go become the man you were when she fell for you?

Your main job now is to become the best jim YOU can become. Become a man only a fool would leave, and keep the road home, paved and smooth.

Meanwhile more specifically,
Do NOT show her your anger. That does not help you or your cause.
Lose the scorecard of your marriage, so don't measure her 'Sins" versus yours or come up with excuses for your flaws.

Own them which means change them. When you can say you are changing a flaw, or working on a problem it's NOT a problem anymore.

Say you used to always be late and it drove your wife crazy. Then you do a 180 and begin leaving a LOT earlier than usual, to get everywhere. in a month's time you stop being late, you are even early more often than not and never are you late again.

So, do you have a problem being late then? NO, you don't. Once a problem is being handled, it's not a problem anymore. So begin handling your problems and there will be a lot fewer of them.

Lose the anger

Lose the Scorecard

Listen like a lover, so when she mentions work related problems or having a tough day you LISTEN AND VALIDATE....(more on how to validate, later)

Make eye contact when she speaks, and recap what she says so you KNOW you understood her fully and so she knows you were actively listening.

Be calm. Do not show your neediness b/c it's not appealing or attractive.

I'll post you a list of guidelines for newcomers. It has the word "rules" on it but they are NOT "rules" but merely guidelines suggested by the DB author and her books and even she says "not all apply" and so use your judgement. See what helps and do more of that, see what fails and eliminate those choices.

we'll go from there when we get more info from you.

its NOT hopeless and I wanted you to know that. I also do know many couples who are not here anymore who are still, however, together.

In your situation you have the blessing of clarity. You know you have work to do, on YOU and you know only you control that. Really that is all good news b/c so much of this is within your control that you should feel very empowered by this.

keep on keeping on

[25yearsmlc]

Here is a set or "rules" (guidelines!!) for you to use while waiting for the DB books to come in, or while you are still reading them, and or to remind yourself of the basics...

Good luck.



1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17. ****You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.****

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Sometimes the right thing to say is nothing.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Know that in time, you really will be happy again, regardless of your spouse’s choices. Know this, believe it, and let it show.

39. Do not believe that showing your spouse your pain and misery proves your love for them. It just makes it harder to be around you.

40. Don’t worry about how the past is viewed. What matters is this day and “from this day forward.” Learn to let go of the past and what you cannot control. It’s a lot to let go of, but it is freeing.

[sandi2]

Before you can save your M, you have to save yourself. You need to back off and leave her alone. Stop trying to plead you case to others. Detach from her and get professional help for yourself or you will continue to have this inadequacy issue (even new relationships). It will take al, your focus on yourself, which will be a good thing. Then, you can see if it's too late for the M.