To DB or not to DB, is it really a question?

[Shakspr]

See old thread here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2490523&page=1

Just kicking it off. Nitty, labug, Ahoy, and Caliguy finished me off on my other thread. Time for a new groove anyway.

I'm reading the suggested threads, Nitty.

Caliguy: I am committed to making a better me. I still want it to be ME. I think if I just added "Active listener" with an ounce of "understanding/caring" I might be 20% of the way there. Thank you for the 2x4. She is the beauty. She is the prize. But I have to take the long way home, while understanding that it's the journey, not the destination, that I need. (FYI, no surprise to anyone who has followed me a bit, Type A military men aren't naturally patient. Dangit.)

[Shakspr]

All very good advice from CaliGuy. You've hurt your W in ways that are difficult for you to grasp and she will never be "over" it. She may forgive you, she may at some point think about taking another look at you but for now, you should proceed in the direction she's leading. Love and respect her enough to let her go, with dignity and grace.

And then dedicate yourself to finding out what drove you to treat your W in that way. What are you so angry about? What is your need to control about? Those answers are inside you and you probably need more than and internet message board to get to them.

Who is the man you want to be?

I don't know yet. But this is forcing me to ask the question in a way I never have before.

I have done things and thought things that I am not proud of before. But I didn't specifically attach them to or project them at my wife. Those demons have been squelched. It would appear, however, that their cousins have better camouflage...I never even knew that they were there.

Why am I so angry, in general? This is just me answering the question, not trying to justify it.

1)I came from no money and a nowhere town in NW Oklahoma, graduated with 18 in my class (public school.) I busted my ass for years to prevent the thing I thought was the biggest problem in my parents' marriage - financial instability. I got married with no debt, a good job, and money in the bank. That evaporated in less than a year.

2) I have changed quite a bit (stuff I haven't related on here, because it's stuff that stuck and isn't part of the current problem), learning to place my family's needs in front of my own, and in my mind, made more adjustments than my wife. It was never enough, for her, and I began to resent that. I had a perception of her requests/complaints/nagging that led to me believing "it's always something." Another custody case, another fight w/ D21, another honey-do, another complaint that we never take a real vacation coupled with a statement that she doesn't like going on vacation with me anyway. That she doesn't know how to and can't be happy.

Why a need to control?

1) I realize that control of my environment or others is an illusion, but self-control isn't a problem. However, when coupled with conflict-avoidance (since so many disagreements with W never resolved), my irritations festered and created a very reactionary tone whenever she brought up yet another desire for me to change or fix something. I have probably accepted that she isn't changing easier than anything (way before any of this stuff happened), but react poorly to her continuing to pick at my flaws. If I'm done arguing about things we disagree about, why can't she just leave it alone?

So, that was pretty free-form and clearly selfish. Might as well drag the ugly out in the open if I am going to do anything about it.

[CaliGuy]

Caliguy: I am committed to making a better me. I still want it to be ME. I think if I just added "Active listener" with an ounce of "understanding/caring" I might be 20% of the way there. Thank you for the 2x4. She is the beauty. She is the prize. But I have to take the long way home, while understanding that it's the journey, not the destination, that I need. (FYI, no surprise to anyone who has followed me a bit, Type A military men aren't naturally patient. Dangit.)

It will always be you ... who else could it be?? I too am a type A and patience has not ever been a part of me, and its one of the big 180's I have constantly had to wrestle. WAW is also a type A ... never a dull moment.
Thing with patience, and my struggle with it ... the "Act as if" helps. When I find myself wanting to press, like now, things have been going well, no fights, we get along .. just no fireworks of R talk at the moment, I find myself wanting to push ... this spooks em off ... FAST. So ... I "act as if" we are divorced, or maybe just starting to hang out and get to know each other ... detaching a bit. My GAL activities are not as strong as others, I do find myself running out of time. Work has been crazy so its helped me stay away from her, but not in a way I have found personal pleasure, something after this audit I intend on doing.

Anyways .. I get your sitch, patience is always tough, and I will be honest .. its not going to get any easier in that dept till you look inward, be the light house and allow her to run off a bit and wait till she starts coming back towards you of her own free will, not because you manipulated it.

[Shakspr]

Well, that wasn't perfect. At least I didn't raise my voice.

W wanted help picking out an apartment for her and the kids. I think the 3 bedroom looks lovely. And it's only $275 more monthly!

I cosigned to keep the peace and because I didn't mind too much. She can/will take me off the lease when she has her own paycheck. This was probably dumb. I don't really care.

I asked one question. Has she reconsidered this at all since she filed in August. She said "Yes, several times." I said "Thank you for that."

I told her that I don't think I can help her move and do so with anything resembling calm. I would like to but I don't want to fight. I'd rather be somewhere/anywhere else. She understood, asked if I could think of any of our mutual friends who might be willing to help (but not the ones from church, of course.)

Now, we don't have a lot of friends. Of the ones who know, most understand why she's doing it, but don't support the D.

I get it now. 2x4's have taught me. I screwed up (for years) with my lack of empathy and my other acknowledged sins. I would think her faith would help turn the tide on this...at least giving us some time, a chance to really show change, but it appears that a vow just doesn't mean the same thing to my W that it does to me.

I relayed labug's pointed comments to her jokingly, that she doesn't feel like I listened for years, now she won't listen to me for two months and I'm going crazy.

Karma be a beeyatch. (Or is it kismet? Wait, I'm a Christian...those things don't exist.) Sorry, folks, rational discourse has gone right out the window.

Well, for me, it's back to dreading the effect it's going to have on our kids. And trying to mitigate.

[Nitty]

I get it now. 2x4's have taught me. I screwed up (for years) with my lack of empathy and my other acknowledged sins.

Don't be rolling in this poop. I have to confess that I hate all the, "But what did you do to cause this" questions. Especially when some of us LBS are already extremely hypercritical of themselves.

I KNOW it takes two to create a dysfunctional marriage. I KNOW this. However, only one of you is trying right now. Only one of you is willing to look honestly at their part in contributing to dysfunction.

And the other one, the WAS... is running away, blaming, not acknowledging their part in the mess.

Look back to learn, sure, to fix your problems, certainly. But let's not marinate in it. Let's have some balance, please.

When you examine the past, make sure you spend an equal amount of time focusing on the future. Focus on all the good things that will come about from the lessons you're learning. This crisis is your opportunity to become an even better man. Don't waste it soaking in absolutely every sin you ever committed in your M. God forgives you, so FORGIVE YOURSELF.

Your kids will be okay no matter what, they've got a dad who cares enough to bust his butt to hold things together... and a mom who doesn't. Millions of couples like this raise happy, healthy kids. (Easy for me to say, I know, because my kids are grown.) Heck, healthy couples can raise kids who are dysfunctional. There are no guarantees for anything and guess what... guarantees are just EXPECTATIONS, anyway.

I guess my point is: learn from the past. Improve yourself. Focus on YOU, but not just what you did wrong.

Focus on the fact that you are a great guy! Look how you are willing to change! To forgive! If she can't see that, so sad for her. (And we know she can't see stuff that's as clear as day to any rational person.) Right now, she is NOT the beauty. She is NOT the prize. YOU ARE.

Love yourself as much as you love her. Love yourself as much as God loves you, as much as you love your kids.

Your W wants a D. You will be okay. Your kids will be okay. This is your life right now. You keep on doing what you can to improve yourself. If God has another plan, it will manifest. Meanwhile, you take this opportunity He has given you and invest it in a good way.

Shakespr, I'm ranting because even though I agree with everyone about looking at your part in the mess, I think you take it too far, just like I do. I'm ranting because I do exactly the same thing. I think this was a rant for me, maybe. And I should just hit "delete."

NAH.

[Shakspr]

Nitty:

I'm beginning to realize that you AND the more critical forum posters are BOTH right.

I have to improve myself, regardless. And I need to know that, way deep down, before real change occurs.

So the COMBINATION of encouragement and humbling questions is keeping me on track. Otherwise, it gets real easy to either blame the spouse or blame myself. In reality, no blame is necessary. Get better today. Be better tomorrow.

We have an active Shakespeare in the Park here in North Dallas. I'm going to see Antony and Cleopatra next week. And you think we DB'ers are tragic, try this play on for size.

[Two Sided Coin]

[quote]

I KNOW it takes two to create a dysfunctional marriage. I KNOW this. However, only one of you is trying right now. Only one of you is willing to look honestly at their part in contributing to dysfunction.

And the other one, the WAS... is running away, blaming, not acknowledging their part in the mess.

Look back to learn, sure, to fix your problems, certainly. But let's not marinate in it. Let's have some balance, please.

When you examine the past, make sure you spend an equal amount of time focusing on the future. Focus on all the good things that will come about from the lessons you're learning.

THANK YOU FOR THIS.

[Shakspr]

Unusual GAL event this evening. Sat down to Whataburger with an 80 year old member of my church. He's the father of the pastor.

Talked a little about my sitch, but mostly about life. I told him I need men in my life who are actually men. My father is...not. My uncles are quirky or whatever. I need mentoring and perspective. He said he'd do what he could, but he figured he'd learn as much from me as anything.

We talked about everything. Life's an amazing thing if you just reach out for it - and seek positive people. His uncle was one of 8 officers that survived the destruction of the Arizona on Dec. 7, 1941. 50 died. That uncle raised him, mostly, as his father was in the merchant marine, both during and after WWII.

Anyway, you guys (and gals!) who are looking for a compass, if you know a senior who's got his/her head screwed on straight, reach out. You're never too old to learn from someone who's been there and done that.

[Nitty]

Life's an amazing thing if you just reach out for it - and seek positive people.

I've found this to be so true. The most amazing people have dropped into my life, one-by-one, helped me when I needed it, given me great advice.

There are beautiful gifts all around us, just ready for us to pick them up. But in order to find them we need to stop focusing on life's little mud puddles.

[labug]

So what's this about "I relayed labug's pointed comments to her jokingly, that she doesn't feel like I listened for years, now she won't listen to me for two months and I'm going crazy."

What happened to letting her go with dignity and grace? Showing her a different Shakespr.

I'm not saying you should blame yourself but rather take an objective look at you in your marriage and be responsible for 100% of your 50%. These are your words:
1. Failing to defend you before my immediate family
2. Discussing our problems with others in a way that cast you in a bad light
3. Making jokes about your circumstances, education, divorce, or my stepchildren in such a way that it belittled you
4. Time and again ignoring or dismissing your ideas, often in a demeaning way.
5. Making you feel lesser because I didn’t respect your opinions
6. Failing to realize that the situation with your ex-husbands was made worse by me. Because we married, you were separated more than ever before from Ryan, and Brandon put us through incredible difficulty (that I blamed on you!) when we were fighting for custody of Jacob through the first four years of our marriage. While I am not at fault for the actions of others, I take responsibility for my insensitivity and anything I said or did to make things even worse
7. When we lived in Wheeling (2001), I mocked your desire to seek a close relationship with God – and made it worse by becoming angry when you asked me to join you. Calling you a holy roller and saying I wanted no part of that kind of life was inexcusable. I didn’t know how bad that was then. Nonetheless, had I put your needs and your heart before my own selfishness, I would have apologized immediately rather than trying to justify myself.
8. I specifically need to address the comment I made regarding getting your education completed before having kids. I should never, for even a moment, have thought that was a topic for joking. This was exacerbated by me doing it in front of another man. I will never do such a thing again. If I catch myself doing it, I’ll send everyone home, and immediately make amends, admit my wrongdoing, repent of such behavior, make restitution by apologizing publicly (later, after reconciling privately), and ask your forgiveness as well.
9. Escalating an already bad situation. If I am hurting, that does not give me the right or privilege to punish you by returning the hurt. I see that was a huge mistake. The answer to our problems is more communication, not two days of the cold shoulder

That's a lot.

I don't think more communication is the answer to your problems right now.