What to do when an EA involved?

[Hoju]

Thanks newleaf, I looked into renting it out myself and decided against it as I would still need to move.

The teams are great but they are both things I've done in the past. The soccer team is my SIL fiancee's team on which she also plays and FIL/MIL often come to watch.... So that's going to be pretty awkward. I was ask nicely (begged) to come play despite them knowing about the split, so I agreed. My hockey team I had originally said no to as I was saving for round #2 of ivf, once W told me she was out I had to work really hard to get back on the team.

180s have been hard, I'm still not sure how to show affection and dependability without being seen as needy, overbearing and fake. I've done 180s on everything I can personally, the rest will be up to her I guess to give me an opportunity to show I've changed in regards to her and her emotions as well. As a "why" man I've found it enlightening learning why she is crying, it's not a plea for attention, it's not to make me feel bad, it's not for pity, it's not because she is hurting, she is crying simply because it feels good to release her emotions. If I only knew that then I would have reacted in a very different manner.

I'm going to ask her to coffee either today or tomorrow and discuss the house sale. I'm not sure how to really go about this though or if there is anyway to show my changes. I don't really need to have her to coffee for this would it be better to just text?

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks newleaf, I looked into renting it out myself and decided against it as I would still need to move.

The teams are great but they are both things I've done in the past. The soccer team is my SIL fiancee's team on which she also plays and FIL/MIL often come to watch.... So that's going to be pretty awkward. I was ask nicely (begged) to come play despite them knowing about the split, so I agreed. My hockey team I had originally said no to as I was saving for round #2 of ivf, once W told me she was out I had to work really hard to get back on the team.

180s have been hard, I'm still not sure how to show affection and dependability without being seen as needy, overbearing and fake.

Affection is not solely expressed physically. There are emotionally appealing ways to be affectionate. A fun nickname or flirtatious comment CAN work if it does NOT come across as pursuit. So, How to achieve that?

Usually just don't look as if you are expecting anything in return. Make the comment and laugh, or leave the area, or better yet, both.

Dependability is self explanatory and won't be seen as needy or fake if it's real. Show up when you say you will. KEEP YOUR WORD. Nothing fake about that. And though it's not always easy, it is also Not complicated. It's pretty simple. Only make promises you can and will keep. How Not to be overbearing --

-Since I don't know you or how you show the overbearing parts of your personality, I'm going to make some guesses and suggestions.

Do you raise your voice even when you are not angry? IF so, lower the volume and be self aware of how you sound when you are "excited" or "passionate" b/c to many people, men who raise their voices sound intimidating or angry sen when they are not.

This is also particularly important when the man is large and or the woman is more petite than most. Big guys sound bigger when they are loud, so again, lower the volume and the "intensity" of discussions.

And ASK HER if she can give you some feedback on when you are sounding more even keeled, OR to tell you when to lower the volume/intensity. IOW, ask her for input and feedback about this issue you are working on, NOT to impress her but to help you change.

Can you see the difference^^ there?


I've done 180s on everything I can personally, the rest will be up to her I guess to give me an opportunity to show I've changed in regards to her and her emotions as well.

Not sure what this^^ means. The 180s are changes YOU want to make, and which she values. For instance, being reliable is something I assume you want to be, b/c unreliable men are not appealing as mates or as friends. (Same goes for unreliable women too). Becoming a man of your word is a good thing, she will value it AND you want to become it, correct?

So your 180s are becoming more reliable, & affectionate. Not being overbearing is the trait you want to work on?

When you say "overbearing", would a 3rd party call it you being a bully?
Dig deep on this.^^

Being overbearing is usually a big deal. Don't gloss over it. Examine it honestly, and tell us what you think it means.

Then we can figure out ways to change it so it's measurably achievable, regardless of whether she sees it.



As a "why" man I've found it enlightening learning why she is crying, it's not a plea for attention, it's not to make me feel bad, it's not for pity, it's not because she is hurting, she is crying simply because it feels good to release her emotions. If I only knew that then I would have reacted in a very different manner.

How did you react?

I'm going to ask her to coffee either today or tomorrow and discuss the house sale. I'm not sure how to really go about this though or if there is anyway to show my changes. I don't really need to have her to coffee for this would it be better to just text?

I would Not text a matter of importance like this. And if you are trying to show her a new you, a calmer even keeled you, why on earth would you choose texting for that?

She'll "hear" you yelling in the texts if that is what she is used to or fears.

You want her to SEE & HEAR that you are calmly (and confidently) asking for her input (or is that a show? I mean, if you are already sure of what you are doing then why bother asking her for any input?)

Please tell me you want to be open minded to her comments. She MAY have a valid reason for disagreeing with you, so listen well to that carefully. Her comments may give you a window into her heart. Comments that neither of you could "hear" before, b/c you both had your dukes up.


Just know that IF you are deciding an issue like this all alone, it will look like the same old you...

[Hoju]

Hey 24 thanks for dropping in again, I fear I miss lead you and chose my words poorly. I am not overbearing and never have been, I'm quite the opposite and always allowed W a very long leash. I believe the word I was looking for was pursuing or smothering. I am also not loud or a yeller and never have been, through this entire thing I have never even raised my voice. I've always been calm and supportive to her wishes, I did try and convince her to stay a few times and it's always set me back. As for dependability I would avoid going to things with her friends, I never discouraged her from going but I would often rather not. I'm not sure how to 180 that as I'm sure she wont be inviting me anywhere any time soon.

When she would get emotional I would often try and fix the problem or tell her not to worry everything would be fine or not to cry over things she couldn't fix, occasionally I would just ignore it and leave her to work it out herself. All I had to do was tell her it was ok to cry and just to let it out, as someone who doesn't cry and has always viewed it unfavourably I never understood why someone would want to cry.

I would like to work on a way to 180 my affection and dependability but I'm not sure how. She said we felt like roommates and not partners, that we didn't share any interests. She is right that we stopped doing many things together that we used to but we still did quite a bit with family/friends and spent pretty much every night we were both home watching tv or going for a walk together. I would have liked to do more with her as she truly is my best friend but as mentioned I was saving for our second round of ivf. I want to be dependable that when she wants me to go somewhere I will just say yes instead of arguing.

W has already said she is ok with selling, I'm the one who put the breaks on it for a bit as everything has moved too fast. As soon as I give the realtor the green light they will begin showing. I want to meet with her to see and talk to her and just let her know I'm ready to proceed (even though I'm not).

I don't know how to show someone I'm fully committed to them and spending my life trying to make them happy when they want nothing to do with me.

[25yearsmlc]

Hey 24 thanks for dropping in again, I fear I miss lead you and chose my words poorly. I am not overbearing and never have been, I'm quite the opposite and always allowed W a very long leash. I believe the word I was looking for was pursuing or smothering. I am also not loud or a yeller and never have been, through this entire thing I have never even raised my voice. I've always been calm and supportive to her wishes, I did try and convince her to stay a few times and it's always set me back. As for dependability I would avoid going to things with her friends, I never discouraged her from going but I would often rather not. I'm not sure how to 180 that as I'm sure she wont be inviting me anywhere any time soon.

When she would get emotional I would often try and fix the problem or tell her not to worry everything would be fine or not to cry over things she couldn't fix, occasionally I would just ignore it and leave her to work it out herself. All I had to do was tell her it was ok to cry and just to let it out, as someone who doesn't cry and has always viewed it unfavourably I never understood why someone would want to cry.


Actually "when she would get emotional", you did NOT try to fix it so much as you left and went for a run.

I just read thru your whole thread (and the others you started). When your wife would break down in tears, You repeatedly told your her that you'd "Be there for her IF she wanted..." and then you'd LEAVE, "for a run"...

So she'd have to seek you out, or run after you to make it crystal clear she wanted support.
To offer support and then leave the area, is NOT to offer support.

Do you get that?

I think showing you her emotions makes you very uncomfortable. Maybe that's something you can discuss with your IC.

And for those times you did offer a "solution", but "all she wanted was to cry", don't be so sure she hoped for nothing from you.

Lots of times we simply want to be listened to and or held/comforted.

And or to be reassured that we're loved, valued, all will be well, etc.

(Not saying to tell her you love her when she files for divorce, but during the marriage, and when she was sad about things other than you).


Also, when you did offer a solution, here's how it MIGHT have sounded to her:....

W: I am upset about 'X' at work...

H: "here is THE solution. Do 'Y'...And 'B' and etc"

(What the Wife heard...)

H: "Here's the obvious answer. Now stop talking about it b/c I fixed it. THE END"....

"Why are you STILL upset? I just fixed it for you, again!"



See how it "sounds" to the person who merely wants to be heard? She just got shut down!

----

I would like to work on a way to 180 my affection and dependability but I'm not sure how. She said we felt like roommates and not partners, that we didn't share any interests.

To me, ^^that sounds as if she did not feel deeply connected to you. And maybe the "roommates" statement was about a lack of passion. That is very likely to happen when one spouse takes up a "solo hobby" like video games, which require no emotional interactions or meaningful communication.

There's no "meaningful connection" going on. And given how you react to her showing real emotion, it sounds like the games were where you felt most comfortable...but she was lonely.


She is right that we stopped doing many things together that we used to but we still did quite a bit with family/friends and spent pretty much every night we were both home watching tv or going for a walk together.



First, most of what you still did, involved other people, not so much you guys as a couple, or alone together.

Second, when you went for walks, was there a lot of talking done?
How'd that make you feel and how did it seem to make her feel?

How do you view that now?


I would have liked to do more with her as she truly is my best friend but as mentioned I was saving for our second round of ivf.

Why is the IVF or money related to not doing much or connecting deeply as a couple? I'm confused. Are you saying what she "really" wanted was for you to spend a ton of money on her?




I want to be dependable that when she wants me to go somewhere I will just say yes instead of arguing.

Sounds good but why did you ever Not want to go? Was there a reason or were you just getting in a rut or were you depressed or what?

W has already said she is ok with selling, I'm the one who put the breaks on it for a bit as everything has moved too fast. As soon as I give the realtor the green light they will begin showing. I want to meet with her to see and talk to her and just let her know I'm ready to proceed (even though I'm not).

I don't know how to show someone I'm fully committed to them and spending my life trying to make them happy when they want nothing to do with me.

2 things to say here

First, don't spend your life "trying to make" anyone happy but yourself. You cannot make another person happy and no one can "make" you happy either.

We are all responsible for our own happiness, and we cannot expect another person to get us there.

You also have to stop asking for guarantees, which never existed in the first place and which don't exist anywhere in real life.

Secondly, you've repeatedly said you can't think of a reason she'd pick YOU over any OM. Why is that?

Why did she marry you in the first place? Who was the man she fell in love with?

Can you go get HIM? Can you be him again, or is that not feasible or desirable?

If not, why not?

And just so I'm sure, you did read at least one of the DB books the whole way through, right?

How is the IC going? And your GAL? The GAL will help you detach and be less needy.

Hopefully the GAL activities are teaching you valuable things and you are getting TOOLS for life that you want. I'd hope your GAL is at least in part, doing things that will aid you in showing more emotions.

Such as anything that gets you talking about something (well, about something other than a game or other "emotion free" topic).

Okay......also Don't forget that I've had family members go all the way thru divorcing - only to remarry their former spouses a few years later.

Also, a third of the divorces filed in this state are never completed. Some of those uncompleted divorces, surely, reconciled.

There's still hope. Til she walks down the aisle and then has a baby with OM, I'd say there probably still is.

[25yearsmlc]

ps

in 2006 my sisters each asked me what I thought was going to happen to my m.

I said that "we have about a 10% chance of making it"...and I believed that then.

So, yes there is hope.

[Hoju]

I understand what you mean by saying I'm there for support and then leaving. Also you are right about me being uncomfortable with her emotions, I will discuss this with my IC next time I see her. She has been very good with helping to get me to open up more.

We did a lot with other people, alone and as a couple. Our walks were great we would talk and just enjoy each others company, we would also talk while making dinner and car pooling to and from work.

The IVF became an issue financially because I felt like I was carrying the entire burden of it myself. We made similar salaries and always kept our finances separate except for a joint account for shared house hold expenses. When it came time to do the first round of IVF it was all of my savings that were used, same with the down payment on the house and the lump sum pay down towards the house. W kept saying she wanted to help contribute and felt bad for never having any money to help out but she was never willing to ever sacrifice anything from her social calendar.. or those new shoes.. or that new dress.. or those expensive all natural facial cleansers. I was left to sacrifice the things I wanted (new computer, hockey, boys weekend in jersey, snowboard trip, etc.) so as you can imagine when she would ask me to spend a couple hundred dollars to go see a concert I wasn't really into I would protest and say I didn't have the money, she would however still go with her friends.

I feel the OM has a huge edge because W is in love with the honeymoon phase, it's hard to compete with that when someone wont give you the time of day. Also, to many people know now and she has moved out, she has pot committed herself to seeing this through. Also I believe OM is a long time friend, truly coming back would mean not only giving up OM but giving up her friends too as they all run in the same circle.

I believe she fell in love with me because I'm responsible, nice and caring. I've been trying to show her I'm still that guy by not fighting her wishes. However she seems to want to be a care free party girl now and doesn't seem to have any interest in settling down and having kids with a genuinely good guy.

I've read all of DR, I haven't done DB yet. I'm reading 5LL now and will be reading "connecting through yes" next. If you can recommend any other good books I've found a new affinity for reading.

IC is going very well, we are working on my emotions and discovering it's ok to cry and let others see your hurt. GAL is great, I've always had lots of options open I would just skip them to spend time with W. My IC recommended a site where you can meet people to just get together with to do things, I've been active there trying new things.

[Hoju]

I met with W for coffee today to discuss the house sale. I feel things went very well, I was cool, calm and collected. While the outcome was not what I would have liked (listing tomorrow) I had zero expectations for the coffee so I wasn't let down.

She seemed sad with her new apartment and when she asked what I'd been up to she seemed really sad at all the stories and activities I've been doing. She mentioned she was flat broke and wasn't able to afford a lawyer for the separation. I considered offering her the money for it but opted not to pay for a divorce I didn't want. I think she is getting a hard dose of reality as she sees all the plans she has getting further and further away from becoming a reality.

Shortly after I left she sent me a text apologizing for something she had said during our talk, it was minor and I didn't even think twice about it. At the end of the text she said "all i meant to say was that I'm proud of you". I thanked her and said not to worry about it at all.

[25yearsmlc]

I met with W for coffee today to discuss the house sale. I feel things went very well, I was cool, calm and collected. While the outcome was not what I would have liked (listing tomorrow) I had zero expectations for the coffee so I wasn't let down.

Good insight^^ here. Hard to be let down when you expect nothing eh? Remember that.

She seemed sad with her new apartment and when she asked what I'd been up to she seemed really sad at all the stories and activities I've been doing.


Do Not mind read, but hey, if you are right, then that's not a bad thing. You are having a PMA and being in the moment and doing what you were forced to do, i.e. make the most of a bad situation. Unlike her, you won't have to be saddled with "what if's" like she will be. You are being forced to "Deal with reality" and that is actually an advantage down the road.

You'll see.


She mentioned she was flat broke and wasn't able to afford a lawyer for the separation. I considered offering her the money for it but opted not to pay for a divorce I didn't want.

Offering to pay for the divorce would have been pretty darn crazy. REALLY. I'm glad you stopped yourself. If need be, tell her why. I mean, if she needed money for medicine, it'd be very different. But NO, you don't PAY for your wife's divorce attorney so SHE can divorce you AND ask for money. That's too weird.


I think she is getting a hard dose of reality as she sees all the plans she has getting further and further away from becoming a reality.

Life teaches them lessons, NOT the spouse. Back off and let her smell the old coffee. IF IF IF she reaches out sometime, be warm and upbeat as you are now.

keep the road home, paved and smooth, and move along in YOUR new interesting life. Make sense?

Shortly after I left she sent me a text apologizing for something she had said during our talk, it was minor and I didn't even think twice about it. At the end of the text she said "all i meant to say was that I'm proud of you". I thanked her and said not to worry about it at all.

Interesting and good talk. Glad you two had it. Did you hug when you parted ways? So when will the D be final or do you not know, due to her not paying?

Also, your money arrangements were troubling to me. Sure, you both worked but the way you divided finances and exposes was bound to create resentment and inequality.

I'd revisit that if you do reconcile AND OR when you are in a new R with another woman.....I'm for commingling funds for the most part. IF you each like having SOME money "of your own" that is one thing but most of the money should be in a joint account for "joint purposes" and b/c it promotes transparency and greatly decreases the chances of someone feeling taken advantage of, like you did.

Not saying you were all "right" in it and I bet she'd have a different version. But I am saying there's just not a good reason for treating each other like roommates with finances and to me, that is what you were doing.

ANYHOW, you sound as if you have started to heal.

Good for you. Remember, keep working on you. That way, in the event of a recon you will be more ready for a new, healthier and deeper connection than before.

And she'll have worked on whatever her issues were, we can hope. And the two of you can always avail yourself of other resources in the world, like Retrovaille, (Which I HIGHLY recommend if you consider piecing or reconciling. You must get NEW tools for your lives b/c you both lacked some).

Carry on! We are rooting for you!

[Hoju]

Thanks 24 I really appreciate all the advice you've given over the past couple of weeks. I think I have started to heal, her leaving the house has really pushed me out of denial and into acceptance.

As for the divorce I live in Canada and it's required by law to be separated for at least a year before a D can be filed. W has yet to have the lawyers draw up the separation agreement due to cost.

Ironically the money arrangement was done to prevent exactly what happened. The idea was we would pool for mortgage, utilities, taxes, cable, food (dinners out), shared activities, movies, zoo, etc. In the event one of us made more then the other we would split the surplus 50/50, eg when she went on mat leave I would split my salary with her so we were always even. I assumed this would make gift giving more meaningful (like when i took us to the dominican last year instead of buying that new laptop, tv or playstation), it also meant we would never have to check with each other for large spending approvals (like her trip to florida last year) and I thought it might help her to budget better. If she had access to all of our funds we would probably be splitting debts now instead of assets. I was never resentful of her spending, I enjoyed being able to take care of her and saving for our future together, I felt it was a way of showing how much she meant to me. The resentment came after she said she was leaving, looking back now at all i gave up for "us". I will definitely take your advice on just sharing everything in the future since my way clearly didn't work out.

Is there anything I can do now to show her the way home is still smooth if she wants to take it?

[Hoju]

Arrrrrggggghhhh so I was doing so well, i had come to terms with the house being up for sale and with W leaving, then tonight hits. Stager was coming tonight and W said she wanted to be here. I went out for drinks with some coworkers after work before stager was suppose to get to the house. I was beaming and buzzing from a few drinks when I got home feeling really good and bam. I walk into the stager finishing up and W sitting on the couch crying. I instantly feel like a bag of crap, how can I be so happy when W is so miserable.

After the stager leaves W sticks around a bit to "clean", which consisted of scraping the varnish off our already spotless floors. I sat next to her and helped scrub the floors telling her it's ok to cry that she will feel better when she lets it all out, things i've learned from my IC . I told her I was here for her and for once did not make an exit. After a bit of cleaning i invited her to stay for a coffee or something stronger, she declined and still had not yet stopped crying. She mentions about how good I seem to be doing and how she just wants me to be happy, she then mentions again about how proud of me she is. I just continue to try and support her, carry some heavier items to her car, lovingly give her a hug as she was leaving (thanks 24). Then she left to go home, still in tears.

Now I feel aweful for seeming ok when really I'm absolutly dieing inside, I want nothing more then to save my marriage and seeing her reminds me so much of all I've lost. I'm so good with moving forward when she's not around but the second she shows up and shows any emotion I break down and lose it. Just thought I wold post because i'm feeling really down. All and all probably a good night for DB but a bad night for me emotionally.