My W and OM have given each other until year's end to make a decision (to continue the A or not).
The OM leaves to start his new job in two days (2K miles away). The initial plan is (according to my W and the OMW) is that he'll be flying back every two weeks.
My W will be flying out to see an old friend (not a close friend) from her previous job. She hasn't seen him in 10 years. She will be away for a week to reflect and to seek counseling/guidance from him. He and his W divorced years ago after he found his W in an A w/another man. My W said that she wants to talk to someone who is unbiased, and wants to hear things from a male PoV. So far, the three people she confided in (her two close friends and a cousin) are biased towards her. She recognizes that. These were her words.
I will also be starting a new job next week.
We also plan on going on a week-long family vacation in November.
Lots of potential game-changing events are ahead. The future is uncertain, but I have optimism and hope.
M: 15 years BD: 6/25/14 EA/PA: starts 5/14/14 11/30/14 - A ends 5/15/15 - D is finalized. 11/28/15 - Start of new LTR with a wonderful woman (and still going strong)!
She is disappointed that I think the worst of her. She is upset that I think she is calculated, controlling, and manipulative. I told her that I fear for the future and I fear that she and the OM have this whole thing planned out (getting both spouses to lay down quietly while both family units are systematically deconstructed).
Her response was that neither she nor the OM have anything planned and that she really doesn't know what the future holds herself. She said "I don't know what end of year looks like. I don't know what next week looks like!"
I sense that beneath her tough exterior is a lot of confusion and pain. She has always had a hard time showing her soft side to me. She always had this "I don't need anybody" attitude, and it still resonates in the things she says and does.
I continued...I told her that from my PoV, I'm working on becoming a better man, father, and husband. I told her that I'm going to continue treating her like any W deserves to be treated.
She asked, "And how is that?"
I said, "To be treated as an equal partner in life".
She nodded.
I then said, "What I know about you is what I've known since I met you -- that beneath your tough exterior is a very soft side. It's that soft side of you right now that is hurting and in pain. I recognize that I caused you so much pain, but I have found it in my heart to forgive myself for the things I've done to you. It doesn't mean that I'm letting myself off the hook for my past wrong-doings. It means I've let go of the self-loathing that was eating my soul so that I can continue living my life."
We then got into a conversation regarding the OM/OMW relationship. She doesn't believe anything the OMW says, and said she was there in the presence of the OM when he had some of the conversations that corroborate his side of the story, and negates hers. Because of that, everything she has said to my W is under scrutiny and doubt.
She said that she understands why I feel the need to try to help save their marriage, and it's that kind-heartedness that she fell in love with 19 years ago. It's also why it was incomprehensible to her how someone so kind-hearted as myself could betray her like that.
I told her that my past indiscretions were a result of voids in our marriage that I filled through infidelity and betrayal. I said that I am in no way excusing anything that I did, and infidelity is never an excuse.
I continued that while I was unfaithful to her, I was never disloyal to her. I said I was ALWAYS loyal to her, and always wanted to be her husband, and never wanted to leave the marriage.
She replied, "That's because you didn't have the balls to. You were a coward."
I retorted, "So what does that make [OM]? A hero? A hero for leaving his wife and kids?"
I told her that this conversation is no longer in our best interests to continue.
She said that she will be spending the night with the OM and that tomorrow (Sunday), she'll be spending half the day with her parents because she feels that she needs to seek counseling from them.
M: 15 years BD: 6/25/14 EA/PA: starts 5/14/14 11/30/14 - A ends 5/15/15 - D is finalized. 11/28/15 - Start of new LTR with a wonderful woman (and still going strong)!
I don't know I would have turned it back on OM like that. You attacking him only makes her defend him, which pushes her into the "you against me" thing you want to avoid.
Next time she baits you like that, retort with something like, "I it takes balls not to give up when things get hard. I'm committed to this marriage and our family.
BF:40 M:33 SD: 12 T: 8, never married, no kids together BD: 8/4, "I'm just done", "...too tired and burnt to try". PA confirmed 8/5 "It happened, but it's been over for almost a year".
That's good advice TSC. I'm actually debating whether I should send an e-mail to her now saying just that.
M: 15 years BD: 6/25/14 EA/PA: starts 5/14/14 11/30/14 - A ends 5/15/15 - D is finalized. 11/28/15 - Start of new LTR with a wonderful woman (and still going strong)!
I'd leave it alone. Just keep it in the back of your head for next time the conversation turns like that.
BF:40 M:33 SD: 12 T: 8, never married, no kids together BD: 8/4, "I'm just done", "...too tired and burnt to try". PA confirmed 8/5 "It happened, but it's been over for almost a year".
She had a talk with her parents in the morning. She came home in the early afternoon seemingly in a good mood. She showed me three dress shirts that she had bought for me (to wear for my new job) and I thanked her for her thoughtfulness and gave her a kiss on the cheek. She was receptive.
The rest of the day was pretty normal and we were both cordial to each other. After dinner, she talked about opening a savings account for our children and said that there were some special offers she saw for opening new accounts. She then mentioned that ahead of starting her new job, she's going to be opening a new checking account like we discussed (this was 2 months ago, and only mentioned once since. It was noted in the controlled separation agreement -- the one she has yet to type up, print out, and get notarized like she said she would).
I said, "You can if you want to, but I'm not."
She asked "Why?"
I replied, "Whatever I make will go into our family account."
By telling her this, I was hoping to make it clear that I have no intention of taking ANY action to dissolve this marriage, and that I am offering FULL transparency on my spending (no more hiding money from her).
M: 15 years BD: 6/25/14 EA/PA: starts 5/14/14 11/30/14 - A ends 5/15/15 - D is finalized. 11/28/15 - Start of new LTR with a wonderful woman (and still going strong)!
"I continued that while I was unfaithful to her, I was never disloyal to her. I said I was ALWAYS loyal to her, and always wanted to be her husband, and never wanted to leave the marriage."
Shouldn't have said this.
M-43 W-40 2D - 9 and 5
Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet a new life.
She is disappointed that I think the worst of her. She is upset that I think she is calculated, controlling, and manipulative. And so, when/why did you tell her those^^ things?
I told her that I fear for the future and I fear that she and the OM have this whole thing planned out (getting both spouses to lay down quietly while both family units are systematically deconstructed). Just curious..."lay down quietly" means what? And, as opposed to what? Burning all the bridges they can?
Her response was that neither she nor the OM have anything planned and that she really doesn't know what the future holds herself. She said "I don't know what end of year looks like. I don't know what next week looks like!" I sense that beneath her tough exterior is a lot of confusion and pain. She has always had a hard time showing her soft side to me. She always had this "I don't need anybody" attitude, and it still resonates in the things she says and does. I would think that^^ is a defense mechanism to protect her from further pain from your infidelities and lost jobs and financial fears...the less vulnerability she shows, the less hurt she'll feel if things fall thru for her again. I continued.. WHY?? You JUST finished saying you have to work on STFU and then a day or 2 later you do this again....showing the same old probing pressuring side of yourself. And a lack of self control which would be such a 180 for you.
.I told her that from my PoV, I'm working on becoming a better man, father, and husband. I told her that I'm going to continue treating her like any W deserves to be treated.
She asked, "And how is that?"
I said, "To be treated as an equal partner in life".
She nodded. I then said, "What I know about you is what I've known since I met you -- that beneath your tough exterior is a very soft side. It's that soft side of you right now that is hurting and in pain.
^^^this is you telling her how she feels. Instead, you could ask her, then STFU and listen.
I recognize that I caused you so much pain, but I have found it in my heart to forgive myself for the things I've done to you. It doesn't mean that I'm letting myself off the hook for my past wrong-doings. It means I've let go of the self-loathing that was eating my soul so that I can continue living my life." This seems mighty convenient & self serving. Also, I see NO reason for you to have shared this with her. The only possible thing that she might need to hear is that you are sorry for all the pain You caused her. Then stop. We then got into a conversation regarding the OM/OMW relationship. Neither of you have any business discussing their m. Imagine THEM talking to each other about Your marriage. How does that make you feel? What would you think of their opinions of you and or your wife, and how you two get along? How much value would you give their opinions?
She doesn't believe anything the OMW says, and said she was there in the presence of the OM when he had some of the conversations that corroborate his side of the story, and negates hers. Because of that, everything she has said to my W is under scrutiny and doubt. Not of interest to either of you, and not relevant to your life or your plans.
She said that she understands why I feel the need to try to help save their marriage, and it's that kind-heartedness that she fell in love with 19 years ago. I think it's only b/c it serves Your interest to have their marriage work out. Plain & simple.
It's also why it was incomprehensible to her how someone so kind-hearted as myself could betray her like that. I told her that my past indiscretions were a result of voids in our marriage that I filled through infidelity and betrayal. I said that I am in no way excusing anything that I did, and infidelity is never an excuse. THIS ^^ is false. IMO, You ARE indeed excusing and explaining your behavior instead of simply saying you behaved deplorably and selfishly.
You STILL make it about the marriage. AND YET you want her to stop her A, as if it has nothing to do with the marital dissatisfaction she feels. With HER, it's just wrong to have an A, but with your past multiple affairs, it was all b/c of "voids IN the marriage".
Ever think she feels those voids still exist and that you cannot fill them and therefore she's still totally justified in her A?? That is how I'd see your comments if I were her.
Man, you really have got to learn to STFU
I continued that while I was unfaithful to her, I was never disloyal to her. I said I was ALWAYS loyal to her, and always wanted to be her husband, and never wanted to leave the marriage. I think this is the oddest most self serving comment you have made yet. And I'd never make it again if I were you.
You are NOT morally superior, OR "loyal" to your wife when you screw other women, repeatedly AND use marital assets to pay for it.
How you can describe that as "LOYAL", even now, is a real stunner for me. And the fact that you did not want to marry the OWs (just sleep with them) says nothing good or loyal about you. Stop mentioning it.
Besides, I doubt the escorts were looking for marriage.
Mindsink, You are still blind. I really don't think I am helping you much.
She replied, "That's because you didn't have the balls to. You were a coward."
I retorted, "So what does that make [OM]? A hero? A hero for leaving his wife and kids?" I told her that this conversation is no longer in our best interests to continue.
NONE OF IT EVER WAS.
She said that she will be spending the night with the OM and that tomorrow (Sunday), she'll be spending half the day with her parents because she feels that she needs to seek counseling from them.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
It was Friday night (our wedding anniversary night) when I first told her that I feared for my future and feared that she may be controlling me.
A couple of months ago, when I 1st contacted the OMW, she said to me, "We had her under control until you set her off".
I recalled this statement to her and said, "Think about what you said. 'You had her under control'. How do I know you're not trying to keep me under control?"
This is when she walked away, saying "After 19 years, this is what you think of me. Calculated and controlling."
(You may have read that before -- I posted it days ago and it got deleted ^^^)
Anyway -- I recognize that much of what I said that night was regrettable. I believe she understands that even through her own pain and fears, she recognizes that her H is also hurting badly. She also acknowledges that sometimes I say things abruptly when I am emotionally charged. Again -- not in my best interest. There's no way that she thinks otherwise, and it doesn't help my cause to SHOW I'm in pain. I get that.
The whole loyalty spiel that I tried to pull off was constructed in my mind on the fly. It absolutely was self-serving. She knows the moral and ethical conflicts in this situation and doesn't need me to tell her or reinforce/validate them -- particularly when they come off as hypocritical.
I was admittedly in a very unstable emotional state late last week because of the fact that she spent the night on her birthday and our wedding anniversary with the OM (within a 3-day span). It was simply too much for me to take, as hard as I tried to keep my composure. I regressed, and didn't handle the situation well. It was magnified by the additional stress that came with the new found focus I had on the OMW and their situation as a result of our conversations during this same time. Another backslide.
With that said, I am not down on myself. I need to refocus on the big picture here (and maybe reread DR again).
Another positive takeaway is that while I may have regressed by the WORDS that were spoken, I have not regressed by my ACTIONS, and it will only be my consistent actions that will make her even entertain the thought that a marriage with me can be different and better than it was before.
Backward steps have been taken. Time to shake it off and move forward.
M: 15 years BD: 6/25/14 EA/PA: starts 5/14/14 11/30/14 - A ends 5/15/15 - D is finalized. 11/28/15 - Start of new LTR with a wonderful woman (and still going strong)!
My FIL sat me down for another conversation last night. He went over some details of his conversation with my W.
He noted to her that the OM has been dragging his feet with regard to divorcing his W. In the beginning, he wanted to file, and was pushing my W to tell me about the situation so they could move forward. He told her that he cannot proceed with divorce as long as she is married/committed to me. It took my W nearly two months from the start of the A to tell me.
The OM never came through on his end. He and his W are still married, and the controlled separation agreement they drew up was never signed. Now, news of the OMW's father's ailing health is preventing him from moving forward.
My FIL says that my W indicated that she is getting impatient. He told her that if [OM] is 100% committed to you, he would have divorced his W months ago. The fact that he still hasn't indicates that he is on the fence. My W seemed to agree. According to what my W told my FIL, the OM told my W, "If you want to break up with me, I will understand, and I will go without a fight."
A side note - The OMW told me that they spoke about breaking up (about 1 week ago), and this confirms it.
They have decided to give this two months to gather their thoughts and make a choice on what path they will eventually choose -- to move forward with the R, taking steps to dissolve their marriages; or to end the A.
He also said that my W has noted to him that I have changed in a positive way. He advised that whatever I'm doing, keep doing, and eventually she will believe that I have changed for good. Right now, she has doubt.
I need to re-read DR, re-read all of my previous threads. I need to keep my focus on the methods and approaches I have learned through the book, on this forum, and from my DB coach. I cannot afford another moment of relapse like I did last weekend.
I have another DB coaching session this afternoon. I can start to see the signs of things turning around and I am very hopeful. At the same time, I have to let go of expectations, and really start to engage in some new GAL activities.
M: 15 years BD: 6/25/14 EA/PA: starts 5/14/14 11/30/14 - A ends 5/15/15 - D is finalized. 11/28/15 - Start of new LTR with a wonderful woman (and still going strong)!
