Be careful, don't try to push too fast. It's was on that things are going well. two things from MC that you've got to get through. 1) he didn't want to take away from your pain (meaning he wanted you in pain). 2)he views you as the enemy. Hopefully MC can get you through that. It is very hard to gain a foothold through that attitude.
My vote: keep at it, reread DR, especially the parts about applying changes, observing, and avoiding cheese less tunnels, don't push too hard, keep your request/demands minimal, and really listen carefully when he complains.
Keep at it!
Last edited by Joe1981; 09/05/1411:53 PM.
Me: 34 W:33 T: 10 M: 6 S: 6 D: 5 BD: 5/14 Still together(ish) Not giving up: 7/14 D talk has slowed, a lot. Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms. Slow and Steady wins the race.
Be careful, don't try to push too fast. It's was on that things are going well. two things from MC that you've got to get through. 1) he didn't want to take away from your pain (meaning he wanted you in pain). 2) he views you as the enemy. Hopefully MC can get you through that. It is very hard to gain a foothold through that attitude.
My vote: keep at it, reread DR, especially the parts about applying changes, observing, and avoiding cheese less tunnels, don't push too hard, keep your request/demands minimal, and really listen carefully when he complains.
Keep at it!
Thanks for your suggestions, Joe. I am intimidated by the enemy comment but I think it's good that he shared it because now we can work on moving past it. He even told me today that he knows it's a narrative that he has to break, but he doesn't know how to break it right now without making himself vulnerable. So far, I'm just listening and not pushing for him to work through that just yet.
I think I may have phrased the bolded part poorly, though. He wasn't saying that he wanted me to be in pain, but that he didn't want to minimize or invalidate my pain by saying that he was in pain too -- as though he didn't have the "right" to be sad about it, because it was his decision. (This was a lengthy dialogue between H and the MC, so the meaning was pretty clear.)
Of course, the irony is that it helps me to know that he's sad. (Not that I want him to be sad, but it does help build trust in an odd way.) It makes me think of the day he came over to get his stuff (2 days after BD) and he was sad and crying. I hadn't seen that side of him in two months and I assumed that he was past that point, but apparently not.
Wow, Elsa! That all sounds so positive. It's so great that a few more things are out in the open and that you've got a set of practical tools to work through some of the issues. What is the "pause" phrase you mention? I always thought H and I should have a code word that we could drop when one of us was getting distressed.
The MC just wanted him to say, "I feel controlled." Tomorrow I plan to ask H what he'd like to see happen after he says the phrase. Any suggestions that I could offer, in case he asks (he usually does)?
I actually wondered if it was phrased funny. Ok, then only one major bad there. The Enemy thing. We're you hard on him during the M? Like always on his case? Or always pushing to have your way (the controlling thing)? If so, that may be how/why he feels that way.
We're you his biggest cheerleader, or rain on his parades? Somehow you have to show him that you're on his side. I've got a similar hill to climb as well. I have to show my W that I'm 100% in her corner in regards to my family. It's a process.
It's funny that a turning point for you was when you saw him sad. After my bad months of May and June where I tried to fall out if love w/ my W (having not been here and thinking it was game over), when she'd busted my brief EA and was hurt, I actually saw an emotion other than anger for the first time since BD. That's when I realized I was still in love and was going down without a fight.
So yeah, I get how knowing your H is sad makes it easier...you feel less discarded
So yeah, focus you intentions on showing that you're on his side...your actions will follow.
Act (and believe) as if you are teammates/partners/allies instead of enemies/adversaries. Immediately end any and all score keeping. Know that the love you show him is good for you too and the points go up on both sides of the scoreboard.
Keep up the good work and remember to listen closely to any complaints your H has.
Me: 34 W:33 T: 10 M: 6 S: 6 D: 5 BD: 5/14 Still together(ish) Not giving up: 7/14 D talk has slowed, a lot. Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms. Slow and Steady wins the race.
Me: 34 W:33 T: 10 M: 6 S: 6 D: 5 BD: 5/14 Still together(ish) Not giving up: 7/14 D talk has slowed, a lot. Gradually working on things together. Still separate bedrooms. Slow and Steady wins the race.
To be honest, I'd been staying away because the conversation on Saturday didn't go very well and I was . . . embarrassed? Dejected? I don't know.
We met for dinner. Originally, we said we'd talk for 1.5 hours. We had normal, friendly conversation for a while and then realized that an hour had already passed and we hadn't gotten to any of our agenda items. Oops.
I suppose that's not all bad, but when we segued into the agenda, things went downhill. The first item on the list was dating. H said that we could see each other socially once every other week. I wish I could have just said okay, but it felt like such a setback, because the reality is that we have been "dating" this whole time and have seen each other at least once a week, if not more, since the S. (We just weren't calling it "dating" until last week.) I let my emotions get the better of me and we gridlocked. H was taking notes and he wrote "failed" on his paper.
We decided not to even try to discuss the other action steps from MC and instead we moved on to the other two items on our list -- when we're going back to the MC (and how often) and some changes H wanted to propose to our co-parenting plan.
H said he wants to go to MC every other week and I agreed that was fine. (I'd like to go every week, but I see no benefit in pushing him on that.) H agreed to call and make an appointment for next week. So, quick, easy agreement.
H is concerned that D7 told him she gets to spend more time with me than him. That's not actually true, but it's easy to understand why D7 would say that -- I see her almost every day (because I pick her up from school even on H's parenting days) whereas H may go 2-3 days at a time without seeing her. However, the time balances out in other ways. I validated his concern but told him that I'm not comfortable changing our schedule based on a false perception. As an alternative, I offered him a "babysitting" opportunity on one of my parenting nights. H agreed that was a fair trade.
With those two items handled successfully (and fairly easily), I asked if we could revisit the dating discussion. After some additional conversation, H agreed that we could go on another date before our next MC session and that we can talk about a schedule for dating with the MC. I asked which one of us would be responsible for planning the date, and he said that he would do it. He joked that he would let me know by Friday, and I joked back about not using "The Rules" on him. So, the conversation ended on a positive note.
H also came over after D7 went to bed that night so that we could ML. (That was pre-planned.) Before he left, I gave him a small gift -- a new snack food item that I thought he would like -- and he seemed to appreciate it.
After typing that out, I see lots of positive. So, why have I been feeling down? I've been mulling over a few things that H said:
*He wants the R to work but he doesn't think it's going to. He doesn't want me to give up but he is not very optimistic right now.
*He was very defensive throughout the conversation. For example, at one point he said that if he weren't so emotionally depleted right now, he would feel obligated [not in a bad way] to meet my emotional needs. I thanked him for this, and said that knowing that makes me feel more positively about our potential future because I didn't know that he felt a desire or responsibility to meet my emotional needs. Rather than appreciate the fact that we'd just agreed on something I'd previously thought was a fundamental difference of opinion, he said, "What kind of person did you think I was? I can't believe you wouldn't know that about me." Sigh.
*Even though the conversation ended on a good note, H said that if he was speaking honestly, he had to tell me that he wouldn't just remember the end of the conversation, but he would remember the beginning and the middle and that they weren't good. In other words, he didn't leave the conversation feeling as good about things as me.
Obviously, I see where I can make some subtle changes and I'm now working on them. I just had such high hopes for the Saturday conversation that I'm feeling more than a little defeated now.
I promised myself that I would go dark this week except for necessary communications. I haven't talked to him since he left on Saturday night except for kid exchanges (which have happened every day since then). I've been light and breezy and tried to display a PMA each time. I'm trying to build up his trust after Saturday.
He was distant today and I had to bite my tongue several times as he was rushing D7 to get her things together to leave. ("Because you just can't stand another minute here, apparently!") Then he asked me if I had an interest in buying a coupon book (school fundraiser for D7). I said yes, we should buy one, and H said, "I'm going to buy one, but I wanted to see if you wanted to order a separate one for yourself."
It's the little things, isn't it?
I stumbled a little bit and then just said very blankly, "That's a bit of a loaded question for me right now." He apologized (and it did seem genuine). Then I noticed he slowed down and stopped rushing D7. When they left, he let D7 go out the door but he stayed back and asked me if I was okay. I said I was and asked if he was okay. He said he was okay too, and left.
Part of me wishes that I'd just said I didn't want my own book and left it at that. But, in a way, I'm encouraged by his response. He did seem to be checking on me in a genuine way. Of course, now I'm desperately fighting the urge to call him and ask if he's upset.
Oh man, I've had a few similar conversations with my H just like yours above. Tiny little things we used to be able to take for granted, like buying ONE coupon book, are gone by the wayside. ::sigh::
Dont' call him to see if he's upset. It's over, you told him it was a loaded question, he backed off and that's that. No reason to continue on with that.
D7's not with you tonight... do something fun if you can. Even if you're alone. Paint your toes. Give yourself a facial while blasting good music.
Thanks, Ss. I took your advice the other night and did not reach out. H ended up mentioning it during an unrelated phone call the next day, but it's fine now.
So, H was supposed to reach out by this past Friday to schedule our next date night. As of Friday morning he still hadn't said anything about it, and I was getting nervous. I've noticed that I don't trust him to follow through with planning/scheduling, based on past experience. (See my post from Labor Day about the appointment with the MC.) Rather than give him the opportunity to fail, I will reach out before the deadline and make sure that things are still on track. I imagine that this can seem like nagging to him.
On Friday morning, I decided to try a subtle nudge. I sent an email asking if we could talk later in the day about our schedule for next week -- specifically our MC session and D7's activities. H wrote back and said we could talk about those things and our date night. Whew, he remembered!
On Friday evening he called me on his way home from work. We ended up talking for about an hour, and it was a good conversation. The MC can't see us for another 2 weeks. I suggested that we have another go at discussing the remaining action steps that we didn't get to last Saturday. H agreed, and asked if we could meet today, which I said was fine. H asked where I'd like to go, and I suggested that he just come over to my house. He hesitated, but said that he was willing to give it a try.
So, this afternoon he came over and we talked for about an hour. We decided to tackle the "exit strategy" idea first, in case we needed it later in the conversation. (We didn't!) I suggested a discussion strategy that I'd recently read about, and H agreed to try it. (Essentially, we shared how we felt about the problem first before we tried to solve it.)
Some interesting take aways:
1. H said that he feels like we've come a long way in our R (not since the S, but in general). He just feels like the last "6 inches" is the hardest part. I said that it sounded like he was saying that if we could get through this rough patch, we would be okay. He said yes, that's true. I said that I felt the same way. We jokingly started referring to the rough patch as our "Agro Crag." (Bonus points if you know what that is!)
2. The more we talk, the more I realize that we're not as far apart as I'd believed. I mentioned this to H, and he said that he never felt like we were that far apart. (This seemed to go hand in hand with the "last 6 inches" comment.)
3. H said that he feels we have a fundamental difference in that I feel that I "need" emotional support, but he doesn't believe that I have the "right" to demand it from him. I told him that I understood why he wasn't in a position to give me emotional support now, but that eventually, if our R is restored, I think it would be reasonable to expect his emotional support. H agreed, but said that we are "in the infancy" of restoring our R, and that I can't expect complete emotional support. I again told him that I understood, as long as the long-term goal was to provide emotional support to one another, and he agreed that it is. Yet, I get the sense that he still sees disagreement here, when I see us as being on the same page. What am I missing?
4. H asked me what I needed in an exit strategy. I told him that I would like him to acknowledge that he knows the discussion is important to me and to tell me when we can talk about it in a kind and considerate manner. H said that by the time he's ready to exit a conversation, he's out of compassion for me, which makes it difficult for him to be kind and considerate. H also said that he doesn't recognize when he's out of patience before it happens, so he's not able to exit the conversation before it gets to that point (although he did say that he would try to be more self-aware). So, we agreed on a code phrase that is supposed to be a stand-in all of those things. (It's based on an in-joke from early in our R, so it feels very "us" to me.) H also agreed that when he ends a conversation in this way, he will reach out to me within 24 hours to let me know when we can talk about it again.
5. H feeling controlled is limited almost entirely to having conversations that he doesn't want to have, so the exit strategy will help with this. We agreed that if he feels controlled for some other reason he will express, and we will stop and dialogue about it.
6. We agree that we are in a trial and error phase, and that we'll talk about how we're doing and make adjustments as needed.
Afterward, we ML and he left. We tentatively set our date night for Friday, but he is going to call and let me know for sure tomorrow. Oh, and early in the conversation he mentioned that he had a gift for me, but it was in the car. We both forgot about it, but I'm curious to know what it is!
So, I feel good about how I handled everything today and where we are in the process. Patience has never been a virtue of mine, but I'm finding the more I'm asked to be patient, the more patient I can be.
I'm not loving his backing out of emotionally supporting you.
Did you explain specifically what you need in that area? Do you want him to just listen to your feelings or to help you work through them? What do you see as his responsibilities here?
I ask because perhaps his tentativeness is because he sees it as a LOT of work and he's not willing to commit to that. Maybe?
I am probably projecting here but it's hard not to see that as keeping you at an arms distance for punitive reasons. Is that how you see it?
Otherwise things sound REALLY good. I love that you worked on an exit strategy FIRST. A great place to start. I'm taking notes!!!
