Trying to stay patient- part 5

[Starsky309]

You have it precisely BACKWARDS, Tar. Until she IS transparent, she's very likely not going to maintain no-contact.

And until she maintains no-contact, she's not going to have her feelings for you return.

And she's using her feelings for you as her benchmark as to whether or not she wants to be "all in".

Look, you're looking for a way out of this, because you're FEARFUL. I GET IT -- I was too! But until you're MORE concerned about doing what it takes to separate the addict from the source of her addiction, and LESS concerned about your wife throwing the (common, 100% SCRIPT) "controlling!" accusation at you . . .

. . . you're going to get nowhere.

You need to just rip this Band-Aid off, and when your wife gives you the whole "YOU'RE SO CONTROLLING!" thing, push back with "I understand you feel that way. I would find it uncomfortable too. But I told you I needed this, you AGREED to do it, and I'm afraid this is a dealbreaker for me."

IF, of course, it really is a dealbreaker. Only YOU can decide that.


Starsky

[Starsky309]

DBing is like parenting: no one goes to their deathbed saying "I wish I would have been more lenient with my kids."

Nearly EVERYONE who comes back here who's been unsuccessful says something along the lines of "I wish I would've insisted upon 'X' much sooner," or "I wish I could have laid out strong boundaries at the outset," etc.

You CAN'T let your "what's working" barometer be "Does it make her mad?" It's gotta be "WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO IN EVERY SITUATION? WHAT IS THE THING THAT GOD HIMSELF WOULD HAVE ME DO, IF HE WERE STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME?" . . . and let the blowback chips fall where they may.

Until then, you're being reactionary and just spinning your wheels based on pure emotion.

[zew]

C'mon Tar. You know Starsky's right on this. You can compromise after she's all in and agreed to NC and transparency.

To compromise before that just says your boundary isn't a boundary, and she'll use that to whatever advantage she wants, and you'll be wondering where you stand.

[Drew]

[dingo]

You have it precisely BACKWARDS, Tar. Until she IS transparent, she's very likely not going to maintain no-contact.

And until she maintains no-contact, she's not going to have her feelings for you return.

And she's using her feelings for you as her benchmark as to whether or not she wants to be "all in".

Look, you're looking for a way out of this, because you're FEARFUL. I GET IT -- I was too! But until you're MORE concerned about doing what it takes to separate the addict from the source of her addiction, and LESS concerned about your wife throwing the (common, 100% SCRIPT) "controlling!" accusation at you . . .

. . . you're going to get nowhere.

You need to just rip this Band-Aid off, and when your wife gives you the whole "YOU'RE SO CONTROLLING!" thing, push back with "I understand you feel that way. I would find it uncomfortable too. But I told you I needed this, you AGREED to do it, and I'm afraid this is a dealbreaker for me."

IF, of course, it really is a dealbreaker. Only YOU can decide that.


Starsky

Tar - you and I are in somewhat similar situations and Starsky's post above is a perfect summary of where my wife is and likely where yours is as well. The difference is that (as opposed to a week ago) my wife is no longer willing to maintain NC, let alone transparency. I told her it was a dealbreaker and I am working towards finalizing our D next week. I have been lenient enough. Don't make the same mistake.

[Starsky309]

I would even make an additional point about this:

No-contact (accompanied by a solid, mutually-agreed upon transparency plan) covers TWO things:

1) It protects the betrayed spouse against the spouse who is unwilling and/or deceitful; and

2) It protects the betrayed spouse (and helps the wayward spouse) when the wayward spouse is WILLING, but UNABLE (weak, too nice to end it with OP, etc., etc.).

Again, just think of the alcoholic, or the person with the gambling addiction for your analogy. Yeah, some of them are just morally bad people who have zero intention of stopping what they are doing, but there are also plenty who truly WANT to stop . . . but can't.

I see so many betrayed spouses on these forums say something along the lines of "I believe her," or "He's sincere -- I can tell, I KNOW him . . . " etc. Well, just because they WANNA, doesn't mean they CAN.

It's not a guarantee -- nothing is. But a unequivocal no-contact letter sent, accompanied by a STRONG transparency plan, plus MCing with a MC specifically trained to deal with infidelity . . .equals your BEST chance of success!


Starsky

[sandi2]

You aren't just pursuing. You are PUSHING!!!! Do you know how I treated guys with similar behavior....(when I was single, of course)? Very badly! B/c they turned me off so much I couldn't stomach them. It was the cool guy who wasn't constantly panting after me and sniffing my skirt tail. The guy I had to get his attention and flirt with to get him interested in me. The guy who would stand back and just grin at me....and I wouldn't know for sure if he was interested or amused. I was the one who was interested. It was "that" guy who kept me watching him. He was cool! He didn't pursue and push, b/c he didn't have to beg and convince a girl to go out with him. And that what you are doing with your W.

It wasn't enough that you went to dinner on the date, you kept pushing for more! You pushed her right out the door, instead of leaving her wanting more of you. Why do persist in acting so desperate?

Maybe that's why I struggle with balancing pursuit vs continuing to treat her like a friendly neighbor.

Really? How many neighbors do you pursue? It should not be any balancing act at all. Just don't do it. Now, that was simple, wasn't it? . (Seriously I know what you mean, but I had this funny image in my mind of you chasing your neighbor around the block.)

I'm not trying to question vets advice, but if I don't pursue a little and give her opportunities to see the new Tarheel, will she want to continue towards R?

Yeah, you are questioning. You have wanted to pursue since day one, and the fear is causing you to question it.

I hear LBH'S ask the same question about "how will she see the new me if I don't give her opportunities?" Well I call that LBH script! It is hogwash! In the first place, I wonder if those changes have really stuck and if they aren't more like future intentions of what you will do if you get her back. It's when the LBH is "changing" just for her that causes him to want to "show" her how much he has improved. It's just another attempt at convincing her to reconcile. Know what happens if they do reconcile? Those "changes" of his fall by the wayside. It wasn't really for him. He was just doing them to get her back. Once she's back....it's over.

Listen, if you have to do that much to convince her to reconcile......she's not ready, and you will go through all this heartache again.

I know that she should be willing to be fully transparent right now and that I should refuse to accept anything less, but the truth is she's not 'all in' right now. The controlling aspect has been a big hangup of hers, even prior to our S

That is pure BS!! She is unwilling b/c she has something to hide......not b/c you are controlling! Change that song already, it's old.

Want a truth dart? You show your controlling nature through the way you push.....push....PUSH! That is controlling. Not the transparency issue. She controls that....by her own actions. Sure, you can view certain things, but she is the one really in control. Since she is not willing to even pretend to be transparent .........it pretty much tells the ending of the story, doesn't it?

Does this insure all OM contact has ended- of course not. But it does show her that I'm willing to compromise and work with her while letting MC dictate what should happen in regards to transparency.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Transparency does not insure all contact has stopped, that's why I said she is the one in control. What are you talking about compromising? The only way I see you compromising everything you believe in.....is to romance her, wooing her back, chasing & pursuing while she is still in an A.

The WAW in an A is not attracted to a LBH who will accept her back home knowing she is bringing her OM with her. It is one thing when a woman has deceived you.........but when you have your eyes wide open and choose to compromise with her deceit.......then what? She was the one who did wrong, and yet you go chasing after her to plead for another chance. Women see that as weakness and simply are not attracted to it.

It is not standing or fighting for your marriage. It is compromising with her desire for OM.

[Wonka]

Tar,

Let me paint a clear picture of what's happening in your sitch.

You are Pepe Le Pew
Your W is Penelope Pussy (the cat trying to get away from him)

Need I say more here??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I want to make a comment about WAW throwing back this line to the LBH who makes a plan to put in place a boundary on no OM, "that's controlling!".

That is classic line of turning the tables against the LBS so he'll back off which will allow her to continue with the OM or even take the A further underground.

I've seen you burn your shoes on the ground full stop every time W throws that line at you, Tar. Why's that? Because you are too afraid of the blow back from W.

So what! Let W blow her gasket....until she's blue in the face. Because you're not moved at all by her histrionics and stand strong & firm like The Thing from Fantastic 4.

[Cnfused]

I'm in a similar stitch but I know the more i've pulled back the more my W has stepped forward. With that being said, last night W again said she can't do this to S. i listened, validated but told her as long as she continues contact with OM their can not be a R but we are moving forward. W is in control of the direction based our her decisions which I can not control. If she wants to be with me their can not be any contact with OM. But continued contact is a deal breaker for me. That is not control, that is me doing what is best for son and me. As I said to my W you can do what you want and I want you to be happy, however I'm not willing to be in an open M. The choice is theirs, we are not controlling. We are only responding or acting based on their continued behavior. Don't believe a word of it.

Trust the advice your getting and I know it seems bassackwards. But it works and the longer you let this play out the weaker your position becomes. I'm still hopeful my M will turn around but I need to have some love, respect and honor for myself whether she comes back to R or not.

Let her go and find yourself. I've gotten to the point that I don't want the women she has become. Will the women I M ever be back? I don't know and neither can you. Do what you know you need to do - you are worth it.

FEAR is False Evidence Appearing Real

I truly do wish only the best for all the people here fighting for what's right and standing for their M, holding strong to their vows. When we allow the WAW w/ OM to control us and continue to cake eat we are only prolonging the bitter end. They will never get better as long as they know they can do both. Dig deep and do what you know you need to before it's to late.

If I'm wrong I hope the vets smack me around until I get it right because I've got a great memory but it's short.

Keep up the great work and let's take this to the next level together!

[Tarheel]

W just left the house. I told her that 3 weeks ago that she had agreed to a no contact letter and full transparency. She asked why I hadn't brought that up at MC because she thinks some rules/boundaries need set. Not sure what she means by that, but I told her I wasn't interested in any past communication, I just needed to insure it wasn't occurring going forward if we have any shot of R.

She agreed to write a letter or email and give it to me tomorrow. She still feels like I'm bullying her into it, even though she said she told OM we were going to work on things and rarely talks to him anymore. She also asked for what the letter needed to include.

I also told her that I needed passwords (and would share mine), her to defriend OM on all social media, and for all gifts/cards/etc to be thrown away.

I know this was the right thing to do, but it still felt more like pressuring/pestering than asking W to a wedding. Why do I feel 'needy' rather than strong?