still holding on - 4

[u-turn]

I changed my subject line a little (took out the barely). I feel stronger sometimes and I still feel barely sometimes, but I am trying to be more positive.

Old thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2485462#Post2485462

Thanks again to all for the help that I have gottem!!

Not much happening here right now - back to ignoring the elephant. She did text me on friday afternoon (in reference to thursday night's exchange.)

"I just don't know what to do...I want you to know that I am thinking of us and you. have a good day."
I sent back: thanks for saying that. have a good day.

nothing else, back to weekend mode. Acting like it's all normal.
----
I feel a little guilty being here too. There are other's that are really struggling and have much worse situations (not that I'm not, but I usually just help myself). I wish that I had the wisdom to help others.

[Shakspr]

u-turn: You are right. Many are worse off than you, or me. But we come here to journal, to vent, to catch a word or phrase in a thread we aren't even active in. Why?

Hope. We all are learning to hope without expectations. The only expectation I have left is a belief in my relationship with my children, which will be amazing. Everything else is one day at a time.

Glad to hear you changed your thread title! ;-)

[u-turn]

So a quick question to the room:

She says to want to reconnect with me - (she still has feelings... etc. for OM though). I am trying to detach and I have been given advise here detach, but also to reconnect, then work on trust and everything else that goes along with it.

She wants to do normal date type things on weekends. Including today - she wants to go to a place we used to go (wine tasting used to be fun and romantic).

Is this cake eating or a real move forward? I think I should go and be my best me, show her we can still do this. Show her that we can still have fun (like it used to be).

But then again it may just be playing into and allowing her double life to work for her.

Thoughts?

[Old Dog]

I don't know u, but if you do remember this. Detachment is:

• Developing and maintaining a safe, emotional distance from someone whom you have previously given a lot of power to affect your emotional outlook on life
• Establishing emotional boundaries between you and those people you have become overly enmeshed or dependent with in order that all of you might be able to develop your own sense of autonomy and independence

Not that I'm any good at it.

[u-turn]

Thanks for the reminder - I was busy this weekend screwing that up.

Datey wine thing didn't happen, S20 was came home for the day and was having a tough emotional time (very depressed and defeated). the three of us sat and talked for a couple hours about what he think needs to happen. He is completely stressed about everything (including W & I). I have learned a lot here (DB forum) which really allowed me to handle things better than I would have before. I was able to plagiarize some good advice about only being able to control yourself and living in the present (Thanks to everyone for that)

I didn't learn very many great parenting or communication skills from my parents, so I am trying to improve. I think we helped him. He is going to counseling at school next week(I hope that helps him too). He set this up on his own.

Then-just when you think that things are low enough and you may have a good starting point, something else happens. This time it was me. I wasn't feeling very well detached and saw that she was e-mailing OM. I had enough. I tried to let it go, but it kept me awake almost all night.

So in the morning I drew my line, and it probably wasn't too well thought out. I told her that right now "we are living in different worlds and I and the kids cannot move to her world that doesn't have the same values that we used to believe in." She "seems to want to keep me around just to keep the family under one roof." "I can not live in an open marriage."

She said that she also "cannot live in an open marriage either and wasn't built to be the other woman" (meaning she was trying to convince me that's not what we have).

I said that is exactly what we have right now and if it continues, I will have to move forward (she knows that I have researched D and apartments, etc.)

I also told her that I knew she was still texting and e-mailing him a lot. She doesn't deny these things when I told her (She really has never done that)

I wasn't looking for a reaction with any of this, but finally felt that I needed to state this.

nothing but silence after that - and she left.

Later she came back and said that she is trying so hard to change things and get things back on track. She's had a rough week and a rough couple months with it and it's a process.

I am confused and angry again. I am trying to detach. I am trying to be patient. She knows that I am at my wits end, but I don't know if she believes I will go through with it.

I think she is trying to get on track, but I am probably just forcing myself to be naive.

I want to be me again.

So now - I will detach and observe. She will hide better so I will not know what she is doing. She won't tell me anything. And I will wait. (Yikes)

[u-turn]

more on this:
before I stated my boundary, which I did in a soft and loving voice (not angry). I mentioned that I know that I have not always been the best husband and father (she denied those). and that I never thought we would have to talk about something like this (we have never talked about boundaries in our lives).

Thought that this was notable also.

[u-turn]

It does seem that I have to re-group after every weekend - but I am not alone here.

I feel like I am still trying to hard to do things to fix this when I know that I cannot.

I need to focus again on my kids and business (which is not going well again due to my lack of focus). I am letting more people down again. FOCUS!!

[Eatsma]

Wish I knew what to tell you. I often feel like I'm close to that conversation myself.

Now that you've had it, I think you've got to follow it up. You drew the line in the sand. You've got to show her it's for real.

Can you move forward now that you've told her that's what you're going to do?

Dunno about everything else. My H just invited me to go to London with him in December. He wants to take me out to a fancy dinner sometime soon. I said yes to London (I lived there as a student, and will have long days to myself, which I can easily fill!), so that's booked. But dinner...it's hard to muster the energy to go out with him anymore, honestly. I feel mostly dead. He is lavishing lovely words on me, but they're falling flat. Who cares if he loves me if it's not only me? It's not what I signed up for or what I want.

Never have I accepted this in a relationship. I feel as though I am only tolerating it (barely) now because we have children who deserve a singular household. Nevermind the fact that I know that this is not a healthy relationship right now.

Don't I sound upbeat and cheerful?

[dawgy]

Hey Turn buddy , you are doing great buddy , keep up the good work . I was told to love from a distance

[dawgy]

Mlp my dear . This is How i feel also . Im just tolerating this for my boys sakes . Some say tell them , they probably already know . But no , I wont and I dont think they do know . I think they know Mom and Dad are a little strained right now . But they are just staying quiet and hoping for the best likely

[u-turn]

I do know that I cannot back down from this. Likely she will hide things better - I don't know what to expect now (not that I have known anyway). I also know that this weekend will not change her - but at least she knows what I am feeling, that I have limits, and that I need to take care of myself.

I don't exactly know what moving forward is - I know it isn't prudent for me to move out, but I can't toss her out. It seems easier for me to leave and maybe easier on the kids for me to leave. Since she is not wanting to divorce and in the end I don't want it either. I don't know how to handle this. - but I know that I cannot live like this - I've complicated and confused myself and the whole situation.

I'm sorry that you are feeling so bad too MLP.

[u-turn]

Dawgy
Good work? I'm not feeling it - but thanks.

[Old Dog]

But dinner...it's hard to muster the energy to go out with him anymore, honestly. I feel mostly dead.

Hey MLP. If you come over to London I'll take you out to dinner :-)

(Not so) Old Dog xx

[CaliGuy]

U-Turn

Just a few observations ... maybe a small 2x4 ... but you know sometimes it helps when someone else sees something in your sitch .. however small it may be.

So, the OM thing ... you can not do anything about that, except what you did, stating your boundaries and now you must hold to them as hard as that is .. the thing that I noticed was the time frame ... read enough around here and you realize all these A's die a natural death as we work on ourselves ... the time fram is really close right? If she values you .. you detach, do your thing, and now you have the cards ... she will have to prove to you the OM is gone, full transparency ... so you can both move in the direction of R if thats what you both want. ..... This may mean you have to move out just to prove you are serious ... my sitch .. she moved, but now seems she has found herself alone and I was real close to dropping the rope last week and again this week .. she keeps testing me now like a child and I have held my ground ... even thought I would love to just hug her .. I cant just yet .. not till I am sure we are past that point of limbo.

Anyways ... my point .. the OM may be on shaky ground .. but she has to end it ... you can't no matter what you do ... you have to be that better choice ... she still looks like she has a decision to make.

[u-turn]

thanks cali - I feel like a full 2x4 is in order.

I know that waiting fir the A to die is what I need to do (I know statistically she may be close to the end (in the shortest A's)? - or not, but I cannot count on that and cannot count on it not being a long one).

If there out outward signs of it, I have to act. I am just pulling back and observing. She is pursuing me now and I am trying to make my detachment keep me strong. I don't want to just be drawn back in and it all start over again.

I have read about the pursuer.... cycle (but cannot find anything on that now). When I read it before, it described what I think is happening with me. I tend to rush back and ruin progress.

Anyone know about how an A dies on its own - cold turkey end vs. slowly fizzling out to nothing? and signs of either?

[dawgy]

Hey Turn ol buddy keep your chin up . You are doing great . When i feel like its all in vain I go back a read many old posts so as to refresh me and get me on the right track . Remember Mr bonds " Be the lighthouse " its been helping me .

As far as affairs dying a natural death , I do believe in that . But the trick is to keep her when it does die . I worry about my wifes leaving and the affair dying and then she decides she wants neither of us . Many WAS affairs die only to be replaced by another AP . Thats another reason DBing is so important . Show her you are the best choice . Be the the lighthouse Your friend Dawgy

[Shakspr]

u-turn: tactical question. Have u researched legal separation? It varies state to state, and you may even do it in your own home, but you can state those boundaries loud and clear if you need to. Your children are your priority 1 right now (or 1A - you need to care for yourself first in order to do the job right!)

It also has the advantage of not being an actual divorce.

[u-turn]

Thanks dawgy for the lighthouse reminder - it helps me a lot. I am still trying to stay positive and show her that I am - trying to be the best person I can be if the opportunity returns. I know we have heard it before, but I hope you are doing that too.

Shakspr: I have researched D and legal separation (there is a 1 year max time limit for a legal separation in my state IN).

I know everything has changed and I have no idea what her reaction will be, but putting my rose colored glasses on - everything in our lives has been 50/50. For the last year that even applies to our salaries. I don't see too many arguments on a continued equal split of everything.

I think a separation (just living separately) as opposed to a legal separation may be effective for both of us (unless we see that there is too much conflict). It may give us the time to get our sht together and figure ourselves out. I have a feeling that the biggest things we could separate from each other is our time and emotions (I'm not sure if this makes sense). Anything else to me seems like a D and it is final.

Neither of us are materialistic - It would all come down to the kids and probably our emotions.

[u-turn]

Just adding to something I wrote earlier - hoping to get some insight>

She is pursuing me now and I am trying to make my detachment keep me strong. I don't want to just be drawn back in and it all start over again.

I wonder if this pursuit is from actual feelings or covering for something else. She has reached over and held my hand in the middle of the night, and wanted long hugs - I didn't ask for these things and didn't need them (thought they do make me momentarily feel better). I have a hard time believing that what I said the other day made a quick change or any change in her. I believe I am detached in a way that I can look at this behavior and question it to myself. But I am questioning it out loud here. (is it helping her or is she doing it for me?)

I have read about the pursuer.... cycle (but cannot find anything on that now). When I read it before, it described what I think is happening with me. I tend to rush back and ruin progress.

Anyone know about how an A dies on its own - cold turkey end vs. slowly fizzling out to nothing? and signs of either?

[Shakspr]

I think a separation (just living separately) as opposed to a legal separation may be effective for both of us (unless we see that there is too much conflict).

I agree that it may be effective, but why would/could there be more conflict? If anything, it would juxtapose the two lifestyles quite well. And point out how hard co-parenting and child exchange (even with older children) REALLY is!

[u-turn]

I said that about too much conflict just because I do not really know how this will work, how we will react to it. I know how we used to react to high stress situations, but don't know any more.

All in all, I can control how I will react, but don't know and cannot control how she will.

I don't think there will be conflict - I assume that as usual we will be amicable, friendly and helpful to each other. (when I say things like that, none of this makes any sense).

[dawgy]

U_turn buddy . I m gonna say something that you may feel offensive but I hope not . JUST RELAX . If she is still in your bed and still wanting to touch you physically in anyway , then use it to your advantage . The best chance for survival of your marriage is to keep her in your home . Separating can help and also can do more damage . Understand that separation is either going to be one way or the other 50 / 50 chance . That is a big gamble .If you truly still want your marriage then keep staying positive , do you work in the backround , love from a distance , be the lighthouse .Letting her hold your hand and hugging her when she wants is being the lighthouse .

Something else that has been helping me is putting myself in my wifes shoes . If i was the WAS , how would i want her to behave in order to keep my marriage . Your friend Dawgy

[u-turn]

No offense taken - (I'm not sure I am very offend-able any more). I know to relax - let things unfold.

I am trying to keep an open mind and observe, stay pleasant, and be the lighthouse.

I am still working on my issues. I had somewhat of an epiphany yesterday about my confidence and strength (mental, physical, emotional) - I am working on that - I need to show her what I used to be. Regain in these areas. My business has suffered so badly that it is hardly recognizable - I will focus on that and stay strong for the kids. This will help me too as I am depressed about the business too - it all just snowballs.

I have often tried to put myself in W shoes - tried to understand the situation she is in - tried to believe that she is trying or will try to sort things out. It does help me to think this way - it really cannot be easy on her either. I wonder if she does the same (put herself in my shoes).

We talked about that when we went to MC at one point. I disregard much of what happened there because she wasn't ready, and I don't think I was either - I was still in panic mode. I do hope to go back to a different MC some day.

Thanks Dawgy

[dawgy]

U Turn , I also want you to concentrate on your business. Remember how you want her to see you . Strong , confident , independant . This will show her the old you again and remind her what she loved about you . A failing business is not attractive . Plus diving into it will keep you focused on the rest of your life instead of your marriage which Im sure you ve come to realize now isnt everything . Your children are everything , you are everything . Women come and go the same as friends . I know you love her but what would you do if she passed away ??? you have to be able to move on . Especially for your kids .And if you want to keep your marriage its extra important to keep healthy and keep moving forward . Get the business back to where it should be . Im in for the long haul and you can be too .

[u-turn]

So the pursuit continues by her. It's like she is a different person - just like that.

She tells me where she is going, she hugs and kisses me good bye, she holds my hand every night. It's a little confusing to me how she can change so quickly. So it makes me cautious with my actions and what I say to her.

She has even told me of different job opportunities that she may be going after (which would be at a different facility than OM).

Now all this could be real or a full-on cover-up, I want to trust this, but don't know how. I want to ask her if this is all real, but don't want to push too hard or stop it - if it actually is real.

hoping for some insight again - thank you!!

-----

Just adding to something I wrote earlier - hoping to get some insight>

She is pursuing me now and I am trying to make my detachment keep me strong. I don't want to just be drawn back in and it all start over again.

I wonder if this pursuit is from actual feelings or covering for something else. She has reached over and held my hand in the middle of the night, and wanted long hugs - I didn't ask for these things and didn't need them (thought they do make me momentarily feel better). I have a hard time believing that what I said the other day made a quick change or any change in her. I believe I am detached in a way that I can look at this behavior and question it to myself. But I am questioning it out loud here. (is it helping her or is she doing it for me?)

I have read about the pursuer.... cycle (but cannot find anything on that now). When I read it before, it described what I think is happening with me. I tend to rush back and ruin progress.

Anyone know about how an A dies on its own - cold turkey end vs. slowly fizzling out to nothing? and signs of either?

[Bart42]

U-turn, really appreciate your journaling- the current status of my sitch has a lot of similarities to yours, and as a noobie I ‘m learning a lot from your posts (and getting strength from knowing I’m not going through this alone). I’ve stopped trying to wonder why my W reaches out to hold my hand or give me a hug (no mindreading!) while continuing her A- I just accept it without reciprocating or reaching out myself. I recognize some contact is better than none, that there must be some feeling behind it, and that I just have to try to wait this out. I’m just as confused as you are as to where the line is between supporting cake eating/responding to the pursuit and standing firm that the A must end. It feels like la la land sometimes when I’m being touched and hugged while W denies the A continues, I can only GAL and pray she comes to her senses and figures out what she wants before I come to the end of my rope.

[u-turn]

Thanks Bart, being here has helped me so much - with advice from others directly to me and reading other's posts and advice.

It is confusing and I still think I am making so many mistakes.

I read through your story and the same type of lies were told about hotel rooms just to talk, chance meetings, I was just ending it with him until you started pressuring me, and I choose me and won't choose either of you.

Now we are in the - if she doesn't show any signs of it or talk about it, she doesn't have to lie (or A has fizzled). So I don't really know how to proceed, except to keep focusing on myself and kids. Right now I just know that nothing is going to happen quickly.

Her pursuit is definitely a curve ball that I don't know what to do about.

Also - if and when it comes to a stated transparency arrangement, it is easy to get around that too. work phones, work e-mails, deleted messages.....It would have to come back to sincerity and trust.

That is why I'm asking here, how do A's usually end, with fanfare (a big announcement and apology and tears) or silently dying and just filed away?

[Bart42]

if and when it comes to a stated transparency arrangement, it is easy to get around that too. work phones, work e-mails, deleted messages.....It would have to come back to sincerity and trust.

That is why I'm asking here, how do A's usually end, with fanfare (a big announcement and apology and tears) or silently dying and just filed away?

We had fits and starts at transparency during the 3.5 months I've known about the A- she was very opposed to it (Of course! as Starsky says) and one day out of the blue after refusing for weeks she turned phone tracking on. Whether she was trying to fool me or was actually thinking about ending the A I'll never know. Anyway, I took some comfort from it, but quickly realized exactly what you said- that its so easy to get around if she wants to (and she did turn it off shortly thereafter). That made me realize that to me, transparency isn't about being able to check up on her but is really about her evidencing a true desire and willingness to make amends and do whatever she needs to do to save the marriage. Its a commitment to work together, nothing more. You can couple transparency with an ultimatum of what will happen if she breaches the agreement (to me that ultimatum is really more part of a NC agreement than transparency anyway), but again, she's going to do whatever she WANTS to do and the only hope (at least for my M) is to get her to WANT to be with me and have nothing to do with OM.

As to knowing when the A is over, I'm hoping to learn from you! I'm not anywhere near that (today I just gave her the "I won't work on our marriage while you are continuing the A" speech and she again denied it continues). But what I do know is that there usually is depression, melancholy, stress, etc. and I'm keeping an eye out for those behaviors as my sign something is afoot in her other relationship.

[u-turn]

I have read and feel like even though the transparency is wanted by me, it has to come from her (and may help her kick the addiction in a so to speak).

I actually think that it would be mostly symbolic in our case, as anything can be hidden and I cannot have access to her work e-mail or phone (and anything can be deleted or hidden). So it is symbolic in a way that she would be offering as much as she can - I would either have to accept what she's offering or not. I have told her a thousand times that she doesn't need to lie to me. We are adults, tell me the truth and let us both make the decisions that need to be made. (It hasn't always happened that way)

But what I do know is that there usually is depression, melancholy, stress, etc. and I'm keeping an eye out for those behaviors as my sign something is afoot in her other relationship.

I have seen those things come and go - I have reacted to them in the past and still find myself doing that - as you can see from my posts. I try to give time and space so I can evaluated things from a distance and not react to every change. Though with this new pattern, I am thrown a little.

Keep it up Bart!!

[u-turn]

So I am in a position of not knowing what to do again (just because things are different and seemingly better). After I stated my boundary, things changed (and I think too quickly).

I don't know what if any steps could or should be taken. Or do I continue as is (as if)?

I don't know the status of OM
She doesn't bring him up during conversations about work - she knows that "gets to me".
She doesn't text or e-mail much while she is around me.
She isn't gone as much (though anything can be happening while away at work)

She is now friendly, somewhat affectionate, considerate, sending me random texts, letting me know where she is (even sending pictures as proof).

This could all be a better devised cover - I don't know. I would love to just trust everything, but how do I know?

It seems still like limbo, but at least a more pleasant limbo.

I use the word dubious often in my posts. I am still dubious - I don't know what she really wants or where she is in the whole big picture without asking. I haven't done too well reading her mind, her actions toward me indicate one thing, but the fact that she isn't wearing her ring or wanting anything more than a hug and kiss is a big indicator that she is not all in.

--I don't think she will put her ring back on until she's ready
--I don't think she will want to be sexual with me again while she's interested or (having sex with) someone else. (at least that's how it's been so far this year).

I don't know if it is appropriate or advised for me to ask the questions that I have. (status of OM, status of us).

I know that is probably a dumb newby question (and the answer is given in DR and Sandi's list) but I guess it doesn't hurt to ask that here.

Is it applying too much pressure to ask her the questions that are on my mind? Will the answers (if given to me) help us? She has asked me what's wrong and what I'm thinking - should I really tell her?

I am happy that I am detached enough to be able to look at this without acting on emotion (as I have done so much). But I know I am not detached enough to ignore everything about our situation.

[Ahoy]

u-turn, you answered your own questions. Look back at Sandi's list. Don't ask the questions. The answers won't help at this point, and might make it worse (you might not want to hear her truth at this point, and it might make her feel pressured and draw away from you). She will tell you when she is ready to tell you, and your job is to be patient.

If she is asking you what's wrong, that means that you're not showing her your PMA (positive mental attitude). Remember to keep it light and friendly and GAL around her. Fake it 'til you make it! Don't let her see you down, as hard as that is. If you're feeling down, work on the yard, clean the house, organize a closet -- do ANYTHING to bring your focus to something else. And plaster a smile on your face in the meantime. Turn on some happy music. That will help.

[Bart42]

She is now friendly, somewhat affectionate, considerate, sending me random texts, letting me know where she is (even sending pictures as proof).

This could all be a better devised cover - I don't know. I would love to just trust everything, but how do I know?

It seems still like limbo, but at least a more pleasant limbo.

I use the word dubious often in my posts. I am still dubious - I don't know what she really wants or where she is in the whole big picture without asking. I haven't done too well reading her mind, her actions toward me indicate one thing, but the fact that she isn't wearing her ring or wanting anything more than a hug and kiss is a big indicator that she is not all in.

--I don't think she will put her ring back on until she's ready
--I don't think she will want to be sexual with me again while she's interested or (having sex with) someone else. (at least that's how it's been so far this year).

Uturn, I agree you cannot ask these questions. No matter how much you want answers, understand that you're unlikely to get a truthful response, and even if you did the answers aren't really going to change anything. Don't believe anything she says!

No doubt the limbo continues and as our sitchs are very similar my bet is the lack of any real affection is all the proof you need that she is not all in. If however she is turning a corner or starting to think about the R (rather than cake eating) you don't want to blow it by pursuing or being to eager- keep doing what you are doing and watch carefully.

[u-turn]

I hear that I cannot ask the questions. I get very impatient and want to make things move on weekends for some reason.

I've done well just playing along this weekend. I'm working a lot so limiting interaction helps. I hate the fact that I cannot trust that the friendliness she is showing is genuine.

I know to look at the big signs, but I have heard here to look for any little sign too. I just don't know what to trust.

The ball is in her court and she won't do anything with it. Or is this her move?

She goes in for a hug almost every time she runs into me now. It's nice, but not what I'm looking for (I wish that was enough for me)(I need the statement because I am not good at reading signs - proven). She actually came into my office twice today (more than she has done in the last several months). All this is just mind reading fodder for me.

I will make it today - Relax - step back - back to work.

[Ahoy]

u-turn, try not to focus too much on any "signs" right now. Likely she is cycling through many different emotions (just as you are). Just because she gives you what might seem to be a positive sign one day does not mean that she will do the same the next day -- and she might give a negative sign instead. This is going to be a LONG ride, so don't make yourself crazy focusing on her every little word or action (I know this is easier said than done). Focus on yourself and what you want (beyond her, of course). Pursue the other things that make you happy -- and discover new sources of happiness as well. Focusing on yourself will take the pressure off her and allow her to see you in the best possible light as someone strong and independent.

[u-turn]

Thanks Ahoy!

A bit of a backslide (though I tried to control it) - my nightmares and talking in my sleep are still problems sometimes and I had a bad night. We still sleep in the same bed and she is aware of this issue. She asked me if I wanted her to wake me up when it is happening, I said that it didn't matter.

I usually wake up in the morning a little out of control after a bad night (my dreams are sometimes very graphic - suicide, embarrassment, ridicule....). This morning I asked her if I can ask her something (wanting to get a status check) - she said sure. I was still coming too and realized that I didn't want to or couldn't ask her anything - so I basically "neverminded" it and said that I don't want to ask the same questions. She knows I want to talk but am holding back. I don't want her to think that she needs to help me with this - as I think this goes back to some of our original issues.

Good thing we are at work today - start of a busy week

I am trying to put out all of the fires at work that I started (due to my own lack of focus) and trying to make sure they don't catch any bridges on fire. STRESSED

[Ahoy]

It's good that you caught yourself and didn't ask for your wife's help after your rough night. Next time catch yourself before you even start! It gets easier with practice. Instead, find others who you can reach out to -- whether on this forum, or family or friends. Talking to friends and family on a daily basis is the only thing that keeps me sane. Turn to them for the things that you used to turn to your wife for (emotionally, not physically, of course!).

[u-turn]

Had a great conversation with my only confidant last night and it really helps to be able to talk about myself and the situation and justify my actions and decisions to myself. She doesn't offer any advice or judge me, she just listens, and validates (how about that!) I am calm today.

I told her in my inner monologue, I replace the word "doormat" with "devoted husband" and it changes my perspective and gives me strength (read something like that here before) (I wish I could find that gem and others again) I am giving it as much time as I can. She understood that and gave me credit for handling my emotions and really thinking this through.

It is helpful to have a person like that on my side. She wants to see us succeed but doesn't know if she could do the same as I am if she was in this situation. I feel like that is my strength. I hope to be able to keep it up.

[mindsin]

u-turn,

When does your W spend time with the OM? Does she spend overnight with him? Do you always know when they are spending time together?

[u-turn]

She works with him. They have spent nights together several months ago at work related conferences.

They have taken days off together - "to talk". I found the hotel receipt when snooping (stopped that)

Lately, the overnight stays have ended - she has been home every night for 6-8 weeks.

She still works with him - I do not know what happens at work. I know she still has feelings for him. I have a feeling they are still physical - but not absolutely certain. I have not asked lately about what happens behind closed doors at work. Sometimes she does show up hours late after work and still makes random excuses for that - I do not know what to trust right now.

Since I have vowed off snooping and asking, I do not have any hard evidence.

I think things may be winding down with them, but I am not certain. She is sending me information about different job opportunities she has (within the same company at a different location). She is acting like she is coming closer to me. This all could be a cover though.

[u-turn]

just journaling today
A little interaction this morning

W is going to a work conference today but has decided not to spend the night - in the past that was her opportunity time with OM. She is going with a female co-worker and coming home late.

Before she left, she wanted to take a picture of her and I on her new work phone (selfie type thing) (that seems like another positive to me, she hasn't done anything like that in a long time and it surprised me.)

maybe my poor attempt at DBing is working or maybe she has figured out what will keep me floating.

I still don't know what to think of all of this turn around lately, but it sure seems to be a lot of effort for her to just be nice. It could be a disguise or a true effort, I don't know. I am wondering if I will ever really know. If the A has fizzled out, will I ever really know?

Still haven't seen the big 3 that I would consider something true. (statement of A being over and ready to work on us, ring, intimacy). Right now she just seems to have skipped all of that and went straight to working on us - while I work on me. I am a little lost as to what I should be doing at this point.

I feel like, if everything proceeds this way, we would have just swept everything under the rug. We have done this with past issues, I want to do this right - no more mistakes.

[u-turn]

So all is not as good as it seems - so I do need to step back.

My restless night brought me some different thoughts:

Others have been asked here, what did she love about you? I cannot honestly answer that. I have been a good husband and good father. I don't know if that is what she loved about me.

We met in high school, married fairly young, first child was born 2 months after we were married. We had our struggles. We started with no money and bad jobs, we had financial struggles, but I improved my jobs throughout to improve our lives. I worked a lot when we needed it most. (too much at times and that was an issue).

When it became too much for me, her, and the kids, I quit my job and started a business out of our home. I made sacrifices.

I don't know if she loved me for any of this.

We have been great friends, best friends.

Our love life was good, I think improving through last year. I don't know if she loved me for this.

At one of our few MC sessions in the spring, she was asked what she loves about me. She said I would give her anything and always take care of her and the kids. Is that enough?

She has a good career now, the kids are older, does she know that she does not need me now?

I am thinking of myself and how I can become more like the man she fell in love with.. I don't know what or who that is.

I know what my feelings for her are, but I don't really know her's for me. She says she loves me, and still says it sometimes, but I don't know why or how.

[dawgy]

Turn , I have asked myself the same questions ,what did she love about me and how do I portray that self again . This is a hard question . You brought up an interesting point also about the fact she has a good career now and she doesnt need you anymore . I believe that is a huge factor with my sitch . The loyalty our women have is pathetic . After years of sacrifice earning and overtime while she didnt make much money ( although she worked very hard as a stay at home mom for 10 years ) , now she has a good career and earning a good income she says screw you H , I dont need you anymore . That ticks me off to no end .Some days I feel alot of anger towards her , just for things like that .

However Turn , your sitch genuinely looks like it is improving , I mean it really seems like she has seen the light . Remember the WAS doesnt always apologize or show remorse for what they have done . They only want to get away from the pain and the shame of what theyve done and carry on with their lives with their spouse pretending like the A never happened .And maybe our duty as a devouted spouse trying to save our marriages is do exactly that . Its the past , forgive and forget .Move on , if you still want her . My position as of now is to get her back and forgive and forget , get as much of my life back as possible then once I have that ........ Dawgy

[Old Dog]

Same here you guys. After so many years raising the boys and then part time jobs which were not very satisfying, my WAW now has a full time job she loves and wants to move onwards and upwards.

And me, I took a job 180 miles away to feed and clothe our family and have been cast aside.

For me though, I don't want to be the guy she fell in love with once. I want to be a new improved version. I have so many problems that if I don't work on them somehow I'm going to be unhappy for the rest of my days.

Maybell recommended a book for me to read - No More Mr Nice Guy - and it's illuminating and depressing at the same time recognising the character traits I share.

Keep on keeping on you guys, I follow your threads even if I don't post too regularly.

(Not so) Old Dog xx

[u-turn]

Thanks guys for commenting.

It's Thursday and I ALWAYS feel differently on Thursday (I have no idea why). I get a little pushy, a little destructive. I am trying to dial that back and figure out what happens on Thursday. I will vent here.

I do feel like it may be about power with her. I feel used. She has the power to do whatever she wants, manipulate the entire situation to fit into whatever plan she has. Keep anything she needs in her back pocket until she wants or needs to use it. I sometimes think she has it all figured out and this is exactly the way she wants it.

She claims the apposite - she has lost power in all of this. But I feel that She has complete control and she is just playing a game.

(Here's some honesty - she started taking birth control pills 3 months ago - not needed for our relationship obviously - nor would it be necessary for the last 12 years (V). she still is taking them. I don't know what to do with this knowledge. She knows that I know she started taking them, she doesn't know that I know that she is still taking them. This knowledge weighs heavily on me)

[Maybell]

Hey you guys,

I've stayed home for the last 12 years and am just now looking to return to my career. I can tell you that the twelve years of SAHMing got to be more and more of a slog as time went by. My H seemed to have a great life -- lunches out, interesting travel, dinners, happy hours, a paycheck that validated the value of his work, and regular performance reviews to let him know how well he was doing in his job.

I had NONE of that. My job never required me to dress better than yoga pants and a t-shirt (though I did, to make myself feel better). My minimum standard for a good day was getting a full cup of HOT coffee in the mornings and a shower. I always got the coffee and mostly got the shower, but the coffee was not always hot and not usually a full cup.

My husband said he valued what I did, but I didn't FEEL valued. Society tends to belittle SAHMs, as though we're just watching the kids play and eating bonbons the rest of the day. I dealt with the kids all day long, and I was the one who got up with them in the night, too, EVERY TIME. My husband would dry heave at the sight of vomit, so who gets that job? Well, we can't leave it laying around, can we?

Now I'm looking for a job, and I anticipate it's going to change EVERYTHING for me. Finally, someone will SHOW me how valuable I am. Finally my education will be put to good use, and I'll have feedback as to whether I've done something right. I'll meet people and go to dinners (when my childcare situation permits), and I'll have someone besides a four year old to look at me when I do my hair and put on make up.

The relief of finally getting appreciated for your work, validated in your contributions, and possibly even thanked from time to time... you can't know what that feels like. It's like finally discovering you're human again. It's like coming out of a cave into the light.

I'm not going to say that you guys didn't appreciate your wives, because you're writing as though you did. But you can't know just how very, very lonely the job of SAHM can be, and if the intimacy was lacking, if you weren't aware of how lonely the job was and how unappreciated your wives felt, then of course you're going to blame the job for her leaving, rather than considering what a difference the change in lifestyle makes for her expectations of how good her life can be.

You all clearly love your wives a lot, and I'm sure you didn't intend, or even realize, how they might have felt. Possibly your wives were so immersed in the busy-ness of that lifestyle that they did't realize it either. But if you point fingers at their new careers, rather than looking a little deeper at what a difference those careers made to them, then you're going to be missing some really valuable and helpful information.

You know, my two cents.

[Ahoy]

Hey u-turn, instead of dwelling on what she might love about you, focus on what you love about yourself and explore (and expand) that. Maybe you've forgotten?

[u-turn]

Thanks Maybell
I know that being a SAHM for was such an important part of her and our lives. It was a decision that was made by us after our second was born. She says she has no regrets about this. It did cause money conflicts at the time - I was commuting to work and away from the house more than she liked - and really more than I liked too. At the time I felt that I was giving what I could, but I learned that I was really loosing what was important. Our family life was suffering because of it - I could see that it was actually destroying us because I could not find the balance.

11 years ago I decided to make the drastic change of giving it all up and starting a business (with Mrs. U-turn) and working from home - We basically in a way became stay at home parents (It was GREAT) we were business partners too (life was good). The economy changed and she went out to get a job and I became somewhat of a stay at home dad then while still running the business.

I totally understand and value the new career that she has begun and earned. She loves it and I am proud of her. She is valued and needed by so many people now at work. It has to feel good.

I totally wish that I was more mature and did things better when she was a SAHM. I felt I was doing the best that I could at the time.

I also wish the I handled myself better when she got this new job and transitioned myself into other roles at home. I totally dropped the ball again on that one - I believe that is what I'm actually trying to recover from.

[u-turn]

Thanks for the reminder Ahoy.

My insecurities really do come out some times. If ever asked what I love about myself, I would have to make something up and not really be sincere about it.

I have not ever been really good at loving myself. I've beaten myself up so much in life. It is one of the things that W said she was tired of helping me with.

I sometimes feel that I have focused my adult life on giving to everyone else and not myself (and that made me feel good - I was proud of that).

I have worked a lot.... (to provide, to create, to make others happy, to make me feel accomplished, to make others proud of me) but I have never done anything just fun for myself, and I have never cared that I didn't. I got joy out of being a husband and father. That's what I loved about myself.

[Ahoy]

I think giving to others can be a great source of joy, and you should definitely love that about yourself. Nothing wrong about that. You're still a father, so love how you handle your relationship with your kids. If giving is what you love, then maybe seek out other opportunities outside your immediate circle (volunteer at food bank, help build houses for Habitat for Humanity, etc.). Or perhaps seek out other things that bring you joy and love that you haven't tried before. Now is the time to dream for yourself. Your kids will be grown in no time. Envision what you want for your life then (independent of the situation with your W).

[u-turn]

I've been working on myself, always busy, and not being overly talkative with W. She is seeing this - we did spend some time together with kids this weekend. This morning she e-mailed me asking me to communicate more, don't be afraid, stop worrying so much, just be you. She is asking me about my feelings. She said she wants to move forward and work on us.

She seems to have been heading in this direction, but I don't know what to do now. I know to play it cool, but do I bring up my concerns? do I ask about her status with OM? I don't know their status right now.

Thanks for everyone's input - a little lost.

[u-turn]

Sorry for that rushed and poorly worded post.

Though I am looking for some advice for this one. (It seems more than a little strange to me to be asking how to handle talking to my wife).

But, if she is asking for me to open up and she said she NEEDS me to communicate, and she is telling me to not be worried about pressuring her, and she is asking to me to be me, and she is asking me what I am feeling because she WANTS TO KNOW, what do you think I should do?

Actually talk to her? (whoa)

She seems to want to know my concerns - but I don't know if it is the right time to talk about them. I see movement in her and do not want to mess things up. I want to go slow and make sure everything is real. (I REALLY DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS REAL)

[MrBond]

Do you want to talk to her?

Is she still seeing the OM?

[u-turn]

I do want to talk to her. She is asking me about the things that I have been avoiding for a while (my feelings).

I do not know what the status of the OM is at this point. They still work together but she doesn't spend any other time with him. I do not know what happens during work hours.

[u-turn]

I know when she says communication, she probably doesn't mean she wants to answer questions about the status of OM. Though I will want this.

I've sent things back to zero before with conversations. It tends to go toward "see you will never get over this. You should have run at the beginning of this". I don't want it to dissolve into that non-productive conversation.

I know we need to take baby steps to move forward, but I still have the questions - I just need to find the balance.

[Ahoy]

I would be careful, u-turn. Who knows why she is asking this of you. Also, is she willing to share her own feelings and needs right now?

I've thought about how I might handle this with my own H if he asks. Maybe I would say something like, "I would love nothing more than to open up to you and share that emotional intimacy, but I feel that right now it might be a one way street. I don't want to pressure you into sharing your emotions before you're ready, but it makes me feel vulnerable to share with you right now because I'm not sure what you're wanting to achieve through this sharing. I stand by my decision to give you the time and space to figure out how you'd like to proceed with our relationship, regardless, and I would certainly be willing to do my part to improve the relationship, if that's what you decide."

[u-turn]

I agree Ahoy. I don't know why she is asking me. I hope because she cares. The jaded part of me says - to dig into me and find out what I need to keep me at her arms length.

I want nothing more that for us to throw everything we want and are feeling on the table. This way we can sort through it all and figure out what we need and if this is going to work. I don't think I am going to get this.

It's so easy!! I just want openness and honesty - no secrets.

I do like the way you worded that^^^. If only I can formulate thoughts like this when it's the right time. I've only achieved clear thoughts like that when I have written her. Conversations tend to not be as well thought out for me.

She asked if I would go on a walk with her tonight - She hasn't done that in months. I do suspect that would be a time to talk.

Thanks

[Eatsma]

Good luck on your talk tonight, U-turn.

[Ahoy]

Good luck! I went on one of those dreaded walks last week. Turns out H just wanted to gripe about his life and work. Didn't ask me a single thing about me or my life. Don't get your hopes up, just stay loose and easy and friendly!

[u-turn]

That's me - loose, easy, and friendly. Just going to let her lead any talking and see how it goes - I guess. I'll keep my questions locked up in my head for now.

Thanks!!

[u-turn]

Not much happened last night. No walk. Not much talk. Not a surprise. Good thing I try not to have expectations.

She did ask me to open up and communicate again.

I have been just neighborly lately and not really sharing anything personal with her and she doesn't with me - she hasn't wanted to hear anything personal lately - I thought.

I did say that she does not have to be afraid to be open and honest with me. We need that to have a starting point. It is what I want and I am not afraid of that.

I didn't think that was pressuring her too much. Just asking for the honesty that we need to make decisions.

There has been no communication since. All of this really makes me feel like this is exactly the way she wants me; not really a husband, more of a room mate / father.

[MrBond]

" It tends to go toward "see you will never get over this. "

When she throws this back at you, hold your hand up and stop her. Tell her that you are not her and that this is your way of processing what happened. That you have a right to your feelings and that she broke the trust the two of you had ... not you. Tell her that if she doesn't understand what an A does to a LBS, she can read "After the Affair" or another book but she needs to respect your decision to deal with it in this manner. This is your way of "getting over" the situation.

She says that to minimize her role and not confront the hurt she caused. It's he defensive mechanism. That HER affair is somehow YOUR problem that you can't get over.

[u-turn]

I usually have responded to this with "you do not know what I am capable of". I wish these conversations lasted longer at that time - she has tended to stomp off childishly. Hopefully she is in a better place to actually hear me and respond in some way.

She also has deferred things by saying "you have no idea what I've been going through for the last several months". I have responded with "you're right, I don't know, but I'm sure it has been stressful on you too".

I haven't offered any articles or books to her - I thought that would be touting myself as some kind of expert (clearly I'm not) or pushing her to see my point of view or guilt her (I don't want to do this). I also don't know what kind of reading she has done or advice she has received.

[MrBond]

"I usually have responded to this with "you do not know what I am capable of"."

That's not the same as what I suggested. The words you stated sound weak as if you have something to prove to her. My words state a FACT and you don't care if she believes it or not.

[PeterV2]

Well, U-turn, I can certainly empathize with your doubts. I too often feel like W is just playing me, setting me up, and keeping the OM in her back pocket until her plan is fully executed. But then she says things that seem genuine, like wanting me to come over and talk.
Things have improved in your sitch, as they have in mine. You could support her in going for that job change that would separate her from working with the OM. That's a step in the right direction.
If she wants to spend time with you, oblige. Is one of her LLs Quality Time? If so then meet that need. But don't wear your heart on your sleeve. Don't try to take the temperature of your relationship. Try to keep R talk to a minimum. Talk about other stuff: your business, the kids' schooling, her job, and some fun stuff, like vacation destinations, sports, etc. Just keep it light.
My W said to me the other day, "A few months ago I was convinced I would never like you again, but now I do like you." That's a breakthrough as far a I can see. She never believed that people fall in and out of love in marriages. But now there's a crack in her skepticism. I try to spend as much time as possible with her. In fact, in His Needs Her Needs, it says if you spend 15 hours a week of quality time together it is inevitable that you'll fall in love with each other. Time. That's what's needed.
But be careful that the time spent is positive and love-producing.

Don't ask about OM. You were asking how As fizzle. I don't quite know, but I think my W's A is over. She still won't share her phone with me but that could do more with her asserting her independence than hiding a secret A. When she was involved, I just knew - by the way she acted and talked and lied. But now she's not so defensive or anxious. Her A lasted about 15 months from EA through to PA to realizing that that R is fraught with just as many problems potentially. So I think it died a fairly natural death, although I think my speech that I will not talk about our R until the A is over helped precipitate its demise (thanks to Sandi's advice).
I seems your W is coming out of the woods. Remember that although the A may be over, she may still have some feelings for the OM and that will come and go in waves. Be patient with her as she grieve the loss of that friendship. I know that's a hard row to hoe but if you can be strong and positive (PMA) and spend a lot of time with her then you're working a winning formula.

The way I looked at it, the more time I spent with her, the less time she spent with the OM. So while I was filling her love bucket, he was treading water. More time = more love. It took a while but I think it worked.

I'm still not out of the woods yet, but each day provides more opportunity to keep filling the love bucket. It was bone dry 6 months ago. It may take another year to fill. Patience and staying the course is the only way. And trying not to backslide.

When she says "you have no idea what I've been going through" your could say, "no I really don't, but would you like to share that with me?" Then listen, empathize. Don't judge. If she opens up do nothing to thwart her. I may be very difficult and agonizing but if you can be her friend and just listen and validate her pain then you're further ahead.

You could also ask her if she wants to join you to see a MC. I would go first myself just to give the MC the back story. Then ask your W to come if she wants. But find a good SBT MC. It may be money well spent.

All in all, U-turn, I think you're doing great. I know it's a rollercoaster. Keep working on your self-awareness and self-improvement. Let her lead the way and set the pace. That way she'll feel like you're on her team. Don't pursue. Let her. But also don't deny her. Work with her at her pace.

[u-turn]

Thanks MrBond

That's not the same as what I suggested. The words you stated sound weak as if you have something to prove to her. My words state a FACT and you don't care if she believes it or not.

I wasn't saying that they were the same. This is how I have addressed it in the past and I know that has been ineffective. It only addresses her assumptions of me and not stating what I want to work through this.

Your suggestion does state what I want - I have avoided saying much about what I want and need.

She is asking for more from me - for me to open up, so your suggestion really does help with that. I have become used to her not staying long to listen or responding to what I have said. Nor do I expect her to and am not really affected by that any more.

I usually keep my part of any conversation like this very short and to the point so I have the time to say what I want to. In many cases it is too abbreviated and doesn't actually get to the real point. Again, I am hoping she gets to a point where we can actually have a 2 way conversation that is not about her work only.

Thank you.

[u-turn]

Thank you Peter!


You could support her in going for that job change that would separate her from working with the OM. That's a step in the right direction.

I have definitely supported this job change - it may be a long process, but I am encouraged by it being out there. I don't think it is, in her mind, to remove herself from the OM, but maybe it is part of it. I'm sure she knows what I am thinking though.

I seems your W is coming out of the woods. Remember that although the A may be over, she may still have some feelings for the OM and that will come and go in waves. Be patient with her as she grieve the loss of that friendship.

I have not approached the subject of handing over the phones and e-mail. I do believe that she will think that is a power move against her independence too. I also don't think it will be completely valuable either (more symbolic than anything - anything can still be hidden and it's been mostly from her work phones and accounts).I do worry that she will have no intention to end the friendship even if the affair has ended. She would really have to know how this friendship is working against us and maybe always will. I don't know how I handle this.

It seems impossible for her to imagine if all of these roles were reversed and we all wore each other's shoes. That drives my compassion right now, but I don't think she can see what she has done.

I do feel like I am giving her what she is asking for right now. I don't know if she is asking for it for her or for me. But things are changing. I've asked for movement and I seem to be getting it, I wonder if I am always going to be doubtful.

Thanks for spending time with me Peter. I value your input.

[Old Dog]

Great post PeterV2. Very inspirational.

His Needs Her Needs. That's another book I'll have to get now.

[MrBond]

"She is asking for more from me - for me to open up, so your suggestion really does help with that."

Tell her that if she keeps shutting you down by saying "you will never get over this" she is showing you that you can't be honest and open with her which she keeps asking you to be.

[u-turn]

She hasn't shut me down this way since asking me to open up, but we haven't had the opportunity to talk much either. I hope it will go differently and she can actually hear me being open and honest.

And of course I would want the same from her, but I know I can't expect it.

She is avoiding conversations again (except about her work). I try to let her take the lead initiating conversations, which means it almost never happens (except about her work). It's confusing when she says wants to talk about things and then later in the day she doesn't even acknowledge it - the moment just goes away.

Though now I do feel like I've been given an invitation. I just don't want to get too heavy too fast and scare her off. I wouldn't mind the friction a good discovery conversation (current status of each of us) may bring, but I want it to be productive.

Or I ignore the whole thing and back to patience.

I feel good about being able to see all of this now and not just react to emotions.

Thanks!

[PeterV2]

I hear you, U-turn. It's tempting just to open it up and say what you think and deal with the backlash as it happens.

In fact I've even done that a few times and it has gotten pretty intense. Afterwards I've admitted that I don't really care that much for conflict, and my W says it's sometimes necessary to resolve issues and deal with problems head on.

Sometimes it has lead to an improvement in my sitch and other times it lead to a degradation. I've done post-game analysis and figured out that if I don't validate her emotions during the fray then the results are inevitably negative. I have to be careful though, as she's said, don't patronize me with phrases such as "I can see how that can be difficult", etc.

She's very intelligent, quick and aware and when we have heated discussions I'm often at a loss for quick logical comebacks. Of course two hours later I say to myself "I should have said..."

Like you say, a good discovery convo could be fruitful, but I think proper preparation would help, i.e. knowing what territory you will stay away from (OM, A, etc.) and having some well thought out position statements, like about boundaries. And also gleaning your skills at reflective conversation so it doesn't degrade into a verbal cage match.

Throughout it all though you'll have to be disciplined enough to remain detached and be vigilant that your emotions don't suddenly overtake you and stick your foot in your mouth.

I really need to read and heed my own advice. I would do better if I did.

[u-turn]

Thanks Peter - I am often outsmarted by this validation thing too. She is too good with reading people and knowing that I am just validating. I don't think she really wants just validation. Her verbal quickness and people reading skills far outshine mine. I often have to take time to respond or add to a response which usually seem out of place when I formulate a great thought.

So it's back to realizing that this is a marathon and I need to be patient. I don't think anything went to wrong, it just still doesn't seem to be going in a direction. We finally sat and talked for a short time and I let her lead with a starting nudge from me.

This is what I got from the conv.
She knows that I have only been offering conversation about the kids and logistical items. She wants more. She wants regular everyday conversation about anything and lots of it (as long as it isn't about us).

I guess that has been the advice here too.

She wants less silence from me - that's actually a 180 for me - I have always been less talkative than I probably should have been - always. She sees this detachment as being worse - duly noted (I'll try something else). I have never liked talking about myself and especially lately, I listen to her talk about herself and work as much as she wants, but never say anything too specific about my day or what's going on with me -

I think we are running two different races, but I will run in her race for a while. Hopefully we have the same finish line in mind - I don't know.

This makes total sense to me and is acceptable to me, and I can keep that up for a very long time. (but the question is always in my mind, what is she REALLY thinking - stalling, cake eating, or really wanting to go slow - I don't know these things without asking - but can't.)(don't know status of OM and haven't asked)

Earlier in the week in an e-mail conv, when she asked me to open up and communicate, I asked her not to be afraid of being open and honest with me too, it is what I want and I am not afraid of it.

She never responded to that.

But back to me. I'm hoping to fix my communication issues that I have always had. As I still look into myself to figure out what really went wrong with all of this, my communication and my lack of confidence may be my two weak links.

[PeterV2]

Ok. It seems like she just want to talk. Oblige. Talk about stuff that's fairly neutral. No talk about A or OM or R. Talk about work. Talk about things that she's interested in. What are her interests? Hobbies? Passions? You know her. List her interests and if you're at a loss of what to talk about in relation to them, then do some research on the internet. Learn about those subjects. Then you'll be able to talk to her about something she likes talking about, and in depth - having good conversation.

His Needs Her Needs List: Men's Needs
1. Sexual Fulfilment
2. Recreational Companionship
3. An Attractive Spouse
4. Domestic Support
5. Admiration
His Needs Her Needs List: Women's Needs
1. Affection
2. Conversation <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< provide this need
3. Honesty and Openness
4. Financial Commitment
5. Family Commitment

[u-turn]

Thanks again PeterV2 - I am going to do this. I know we use to talk about everything - all the time. That comfort level has been gone for a while though and it almost seems awkward to try again with the elephant in the room. But I will. I don't really need to research what her likes used to be - I've known her for a long time.

Though her interests have changed since our problems began. Many of her new interests are in tune with OM and not me though - fitness and competitive racing and her work. It is hard for me to talk about these things without thinking of the situation and without thinking that I am fueling her thoughts of the OM - but that would be mind reading
------
I have probably been weakest on providing #2 that for her needs^^^. I do feel and I don't think that she would deny that I was strong on the other 4 needs.

Thanks again for keeping up with me. I wish you luck!!!

[dawgy]

Yeah Peter is great . Hes helped me a lot too Turn . Pete is very strong and I pray for some of his strength to keep going . Ive had a couple days of seeing " my Girl " then boom shes gone again . texting a lot , secretive evreything that drives me crazy . For two days I could see the light . Now its all gone dark again . This behavior is soooo hard to deal with . Its torturous . I would agree its difficult for you to have conversation but i find if you can control your mind and act confident when speaking to her she will be more responsive . Acting like you are not bothered by whats going on when your in conversation does really work and it puts her mind at ease that your not making her feel guilty every time you talk . Just a thought guys Dawgy

[u-turn]

Keeping this up. We are having regular conversation that friends would have I guess - when she wants.

She says she feels very neutral right now (?) and I asked her if that is good for her. She said it's like she can breathe again, not drowning.

I don't know what this means. Just seems like she wants me to be a friend.

I look at the calendar and every month and I think about the time that has been lost with her. I am better with myself, but I'm always hoping for more.

I still want to dig deeper, but will stay back.

[u-turn]

I had a great time with S17 and D14 last night. I went to the movies/dinner with them and we had some great laughs. It makes me believe that they are ok and resilient. Or I have kept everything normal enough and my PMA in front of them to cover it up.

This morning W asked about our evening, she has been pretty disconnected with me lately, I just said we had a great time.

She apologized for being distant lately.

I said "it was ok, but you want me to open up, but you are keeping me at arms length and if you are not going to talk, all I can do is try to read your mind, which I am not good at". She apologized again and said "nobody's good at that and you over analyze things". She said then, "I'm still here". an indication that she isn't giving up - we've used that phrase before.

Not as much of a conversation that I was hoping for, but I guess I should take what I can get - doesn't mean she's in or out. I try to let go of all of the signals that I "think" I'm getting.

Just more crumbs and more limbo.

On another note, she says she is actively looking at moving to another facility within the same company. This is also promising to me - not that it will end the A (if it is still going on), but it would limit their face time together.

[PeterV2]

U-turn, you are seeing some positive progress. Just learn from my mistakes and don't apply any pressure. Keep up the light conversation. Accept the crumbs and live with the limbo. If your sitch is not deteriorating then that's a positive.

That's great news that she's looking to transfer to another facility. She's working on getting away from the OM. That's a step in the right direction. Be supportive but not over the top.

Keep up the PMA and detachment. Stop mind reading and focus on yourself. Time is your friend right now. Be patient and keep up your self-improvement program. Don't pursue. She will be drawn back to you. I know it's hard - I'm struggling to stop pressuring my W - takes discipline.

You're doing well - keep it up.

(Pray for Dawgy - he needs our support right now)

[u-turn]

Thanks Peter - I've been reading here a little, but not posting much as I'm trying to calm down and focus more on other things in my life. I appreciate your (and everyone's) input always. I find myself being a little obsessed here though.

I am really looking at the patterns where I have applied too much pressure and I'm trying not to repeat this. It noticeably shuts her down and turns her away. Which in turn makes me feel bad about the pressure I put on her.

This weekend is her birthday and we are spending the day together on Saturday (she asked to do this). I am striving to show her the best me without pressure. She seems very open to that right now.

All I can do is trust that this is real until I know otherwise. Maybe she will believe in me too.

It is hard to not ask questions or know answers and move things along but I have my distance shoes on.

Thank you!!

[PeterV2]

U-turn, I know how hard it is not to ask questions or let your imagination run away with you. Just chill and smile. The more you do, the easier it gets. Things will move along in due course as the universe unfolds. Take a Zen approach. Recommended reading: Tao te Ching - English translation by Stephen Mitchell.

[Old Dog]

U-turn I think you are closest to my situation on here (that I've read anyway - I have read everyone's because I need to sleep at times :-)

2. Conversation <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< provide this need. This rings true with me also. We were sitting in the kitchen earlier and I was thinking I must say something but what? So many things are just so trivial now and the relationship is out of bounds.

Looks like I'm going to start reading some of the books she reads. The trouble is she reads much faster than I do so I'll always be behind.

PeterV2, you provide good advice. Thank you.

(Not so) Old Dog xx

[u-turn]

It's been a while again, but I've actually stayed busy with the kids (S20 was home this weekend). Had a "date" day with W, which was really good and W's birthday was Sunday low key celebration - family dinner.

I think she has inner struggles that she covers up much of the time, but it does show at times. She is becoming more detached again.

We had a bit of a breakdown on Sun when I walked in on her getting her birth control pills out of her purse. She had the hand in the cookie jar look, hid them, and tried to make an over the top nice conversation. I looked distant - she stopped, I said I'm sorry, but I saw what she was doing. She had anger and asked me if I wanted to know why. I waited to back down my comments that would not have been helpful, but said sure (I'm going to continue taking these because it controls my moods and bleeding (sorry for the graphic)). I shrugged and said that I didn't know about that. But I did say that there are too many secrets (not helpful, I know).

We got through dinner and went to our corners for the night.

She sent me a text yesterday saying "I can tell you my head and heart are in the right place. Just closed off to me and everyone right now".

I later responded that I wish she could open up to me. I want to help, but I don't know how.

She said she didn't know how either, I am trying.

I'm not sure what any of this means and what I should do, but I am not feeling good about it again. I want to tell her how I feel, but again I know this does not matter and would not be helpful.

[PeterV2]

Have you thought about seeing a MC? Just to help you two through this.

[u-turn]

We went to a MC a hand full of times in May-June and she wouldn't go any more at the time. Later I found out that one of the reasons was that she was still having an A and was just lying (and I also found out that MC knows the OM).

I have not brought that up a MC again. I would definitely like to, but I don't know if she is ready. If I ask her and say that I would like to go, it may be pressuring her. I've been patiently waiting for her to ask me. She hasn't told me that she is ready to work on us again.

[PeterV2]

What I did recently, is to tell her I'm going to see the MC and said if she wants to come along she's welcome. That it may actually help me, in case the perspective I express to the MC is flawed - that she would then have the opportunity to correct me.
She's coming with me tomorrow to our MC. (Just to make sure I'm not blowing wind up the MC's a$$)

[u-turn]

Good luck at the MC.

I am hoping to get there again too with her but I do worry it will set her back. It helped me when we went, but I ended up going by myself more than she went (she'd not show up, or want to cancel, or just say no toward the end). I was in a much different state of mind at the time and was very emotional (this was all pre-db).

I think I will bring it up to her today. Ask if she is open to going to a different MC.

side note: I've been feeling like an employee at my house again lately and feel like I've internally taken some steps backwards too. I've been getting that punch in the gut feeling every day again.

She's commented on how I know how to do the right things all the time. I don't know why this doesn't help her see things more clearly. I don't know if this is what she wants.

Thanks

[PeterV2]

Patience my friend. Baby steps. No pressure.

[u-turn]

I know Peter. Patience.
I've written myself a letter that won't be sent to W. I don't know if this will help with my patience, but it is how I feel. It may also help me with verbalizing if ever given the chance.

I told you that I didn't feel like you were coming back and you looked shocked by this.

What I meant by that was-

You have been nice to me, present for me and the kids and it seems normal at times and I love these normal times. Believe me that it is not a case of you not doing enough, but I want you to be true to yourself.

I don't need you to do nice things for me - unless you want to
I don't need you to be anything you don't want to be
I don't need you to do anything for me - unless you want to

I just want you to be you and I want to love that person. I choose to love you.

You want me to be happy and show happiness. I know I am in control of my feelings and happiness. I try, but sometimes it only covers what is happening since I do not know what you want or who you want or how you want your life to be. I am only waiting and faking it. I continue to hurt.

Not knowing what decisions you are making makes it so hard and unsettling. Not hearing or seeing that you have decided anything makes me doubtful. We are in the biggest crisis or our lives and you diluted it into - we are just fighting over something. I just don't see it that way.

I've said and written so many things this year - and I've meant it all at the time. Some I shouldn't have said and kept it to myself. Some were written and said in panic. I really think you know what I am about. I've been open with you.

I want to find the confidence in us that I have always had. I don't want to control you and I want you to be happy with who you are. I want to find a way to be husband and wife again - if that is what you want. I don't know how to get this back on my own. I think I can regain trust - but don't know how to do it on my own.

I want to know what you think your path is, what you find acceptable in a relationship, where you see me fitting in with that.

I am a traditional man, I have traditional values, and want a traditional relationship with you. Maybe I am naive and life doesn't happen like that. I just never concerned myself with that - ever. I need to know if it cannot be this way.

[PeterV2]

Wow. That could be me talking. You nailed it U-turn! That's exactly how I feel, word for word.

I know you can't give this to her. I couldn't give it to my W. It would be "pressuring". But yeah, it's certainly healthy to put it down in writing. Good work!

[u-turn]

Some troubles with the kids that W&I may have caused or certainly didn't help with.

S-20 was diagnosed with PTSD and depression from a campus counselor. (I don't know if this diagnosis is valid though - he went in to the initial meeting with this self-diagnosis in mind; I believe this counselor is a student that is being observed by a DR.; and S-20 said the counselor teared up during their meeting (not a good sign at all - in my opinion).

We have known this for a couple weeks and he posted it on FB the other night. This started a flood of sympathy posts to him, and a couple of "what are you thinking putting it on FB for the world to see" posts and text messages. I think he needs another opinion, but he has gone silent and isn't taking any calls from us (just a couple texts to d-14).

This diagnosis may stem from a drowning while he was working as a lifeguard, a traffic accident that he stopped to help with, and the troubles with his family. He basically came home from college and everything was unraveled.

I don't know enough about PTSD at this point to help him or even offer an opinion (which he would not accept anyway), except to get an opinion from a different C. My W's opinion is that he may have needed a label to get some attention and to have an excuse for not doing well at school again. This could be (he has wanted attention like this in the past), but I don't know how to help him right now.

I think the emotional condition I was in early summer and not really controlling myself too well until after he left for school, affected him a lot too. We all value our family and he saw it falling apart.

He did only see things in a semi-bad condition (he was not around when the bomb dropped in the spring - when I was a complete wreck). I wasn't DBng properly or riding the PMA train until after he left and unfortunately he missed that.

and

S-17 was caught smoking and the first excuse he used was it helped him to deal with the family troubles. I think we have this worked out, but just when I thought that I was doing ok holding this family together, I realize that I need to do more.

I am home with S-17 and d-14 for a couple of days (schools out). I am having some quality time with them and trying to get this house back in order.

[u-turn]

I received a text from W, while I was out at a meeting this weekend. It was a forwarded message from S-20: "S-17 & D-14 are really worried about dad. They say he isn't taking care of himself and he's been losing weight, not eating...I'm worried about him too. Try to talk to him. He listens to you."

In my mind I am doing better and feeling better. The kids must not think so. This is a major problem for me now. She forwarded it to me and did not discuss it. I wanted to address it with her, but when I mentioned it, the conversations was dissolving very quickly, so I stopped and changed the subject.

I did not mention it or address it in any way with the kids yet. They were hoping for her to help and she didn't do what they wanted. I don't know if I want to tell them that she just sent it to me. I think I will just tell them that I am ok and don't worry about me. I don't want them to think that they did anything wrong.

Then Sunday morning it hit the fan and I am not very hopeful any more. She wanted to talk and rehash.

She was upset, crying, said she's ruined me and our family but also that this is the way it is, there is nothing she can do about it. She cannot change jobs, she needs this job to take care of the kids. Maybe we should S. - then spewing how bad I was and bringing up the mistakes that I have made. (I acknowledged these again and said that I wish I had done thinks differently)

so basically (what I hear)

Get over it.
I introduced a third person into our marriage and I am sorry. There's nothing I can do about it. He is going to be a factor in our lives. What's the big deal? Stop taking it so hard. You said you could get over it and you haven't. There's nothing else I can do.

You were a bad husband. How does it feel to want something? Don't let the kids or anyone else see you hurt.

I don't know where to go from here - I was pretty upset by this yesterday and and it really got ot me last night. I never showed her this though. I'm letting it sit right now.

[PeterV2]

Well she admitted she introduced a third person into the marriage and she's sorry.
First of all you have you forgive her and tell that you do.

You can also admit that you were a bad husband but you need to back that up with examples and then follow that with an apology for your role in the decline of the R. You need to face those faults and change them. In your changes you must be consistent and constant. She will see those changes but will say too little too late, or I don't believe they will last. "If I come back to you, you will just go back to the way you were." That's the script. I hear it every other day. But once in a while she'll refer to the way I "used to be". So even though she's still spewing the script there are signs there's a shift happening in her perspective. And her perspective is everything. It's only been 11 months so it's still fairly fresh. Really. Check out MWD's youtube videos. Some of them are truly eye-opening.

And take care of yourself. Exercise 3 times a week. Eat well. Keep a PMA. Laugh with your kids. Go to a comedy show. I lost 30 lbs and I look great. My kids even commented that my gut was gone. I had a bit of a ponch a year ago. Now I'm ripped. 40 minutes of weights and 20 minutes of cardio 3 times a week. Takes discipline but after 5 months I started to notice a difference. Now other people are noticing. And I feel great.
Wear a nice cologne. I learned about Mount Blanc Legend from this site and I wear it regularly, especially when going to see my W. She has noticed. (Actually that's one of Sandi's rules). Stick with the program. Keep your spew jacket handy. And whistle while you work.

[u-turn]

Thanks Peter, it is like starting over again.

I've told her that I forgive her for things she has done, do you think I should again (and what about the idea that she may still be involved w/ OM)?

I'm still torn between forgiving her and trusting her(trust will have to come in time).
I don't know if I should indicate that I doubt her(I don't think that will help anything)?
I told her I just want a starting point, should I do it again?

Seems like this would be pressure for her again.

I know that I can forgive her for the things she has done, and I have told her that, and I have asked her to forgive me (I know she does not have to do that). She has seen in my life that I do not hold grudges with anyone. I know I have to file away all of the lies she has told me.

But

We've been through all of this before and I've done all of this before. I have acknowledged and listed and apologized for my roll in our decline. (should I do this again?) I know this is all about her perspective, but after this weekend, it really seems like we've gotten nowhere.

I do know, after being here for a while that she may be trying to justify her actions by bringing up my faults again. It's just a big circle.

(BTW - I know that I have written here that I can forgive and have forgiven. and I know there is a difference)

I actually visualized the spew jacket when she was telling me what a rotten person I am. (kept me calm through the conv.) - thanks for that too!!

I know I have not done everything right, but I am not a rotten person. I really think she believes that too, and I really think the same of her.

hoping for some direction

[PeterV2]

U-turn, if you've already told her you forgive her and said you want to start over, then I'd just let it rest. Constantly repeating yourself is pursuing. It will take time. Months. While you're waiting for the baby steps of change in her, keep up the changes in you and keep on improving yourself. Be a happy, fun-to-be-with, person. I know that's totally opposite to how you feel, but that's what the 180 is all about.

[u-turn]

I think things are still dissolving here - going in the opposite direction that I was hoping. She is pulling way back from me and I am letting her.

We have shared very few words this week, except for last night. She was telling me of her work day and during her story she stopped, her look changed, and she left the room. About 15 minutes later she came back, very angry, and said "I'm done" and I asked what she meant by that. She said "I can tell by the look on your face that I cannot talk to you about anything - I am done with this". I wasn't quite sure what she was talking about, so I asked her again what she meant by those words. She said that she isn't going to continue trying and is done with us.

I told her that she says this when she doesn't want to deal with problems - (I don't think I should have said this, but cannot unring that bell).

This is very out of the blue again, though she often uses those words (I'm done), when she gets frustrated and things don't go her way.

She slept in another room last night - this hasn't happened in a long time.

Time will tell what is happening.

[PeterV2]

U-turn, when she's telling you about her day what are you doing? Are you looking her in the eyes and listening to her intently, with the appropriate nodding and uh-huhs? Or are you thinking about other things, drifting or reading?

[u-turn]

when she's telling you about her day what are you doing? Are you looking her in the eyes and listening to her intently, with the appropriate nodding and uh-huhs?

Knowing that this is important and focusing on my 180s, I know to pay close attention when she is talking. So I am doing that and showing interest in what she's talking about. I ask questions about her stories so she can expand on things that she likes to talk about.

She says I am just patronizing her. She's like a mind reading ninja sometimes (something that I've always loved about her) - but she sees right through this validation.

She will only talk to me about work, and a little about the kids. I try not to push conversations into other areas, but sometimes I feel like she wants me to.

Yesterday she had to fire someone - and she hated doing it. I told her that I knew that was a hard thing to do - I think she liked this from me.

[PeterV2]

What you have to realize is that if listening that intently is a 180 for you, that means is a new skill that you're just learning to apply and as such it will seem a little forced to you and to her it will seem disingenuous, hence her saying that you're patronizing her. I've gotten that from my W when I've spoken validation statements to her.

This is to be expected. What I later said to my W was that I'm learning to be more emotionally present and empathetic and it's a new skill set for me that I feel will serve me well in my life, but please excuse me if it feels a little forced right now - it's something I'm just learning and soon enough it will feel more natural as I get into the habit of being empathetic. She didn't respond but took it in.

[sandi2]

Very well said, Peter.

[u-turn]

Thanks Peter - I'm not sure if explaining my changes will hold much weight - more so just remind her of my faults.

Other 180s I'm trying:

I need to dump my - if we are not working at it, we are not working at it attitude. Though I want a magic solution, I have to realize that just because we are not actively moving forward, at least by not adding pressure, we are not moving backwards - this is still hard for me (I think that I may have added pressure throughout our marriage to get results).

Looking at the calendar again and knowing that yet another month has gone by since everything blew up usually makes me pushy for a solution or direction. (this cycle needs to stop -and this is approaching a year).

I know this is nothing new here - I've been told to be patient, but may need to write it to do it.
--------------
BTW - I am truly astounded by the amount of care there is here. I come here every day, usually just to read other's advice and pick up some wisdom or motivation from them. I am grateful for those that selflessly give their time and offer advice and motivating words to each other every day. THANK YOU

(I try to remember the things that I'm thankful for and let people know about it in November)

[PeterV2]

Yeah I agree. There's a lot of care here. I eternally grateful to all contributors, great and small.

It's coming up to a year since my W left the house. And she still not coming home yet. Takes the patience of Job. Every month I too want reconciliation. I drive away from my W's place with my head all filled with what I want to say - to tell her to give her head a shake, to tell her it's over, to tell her to come home, to ask her what is she scheming.

But then I ask myself: will what I say bring us closer together, or drive us apart.

Although I really want to speak my mind, I then realize that if I do it will just drive us apart and so I chose my words with love in my heart.

That's the choice I make. You may call me a doormat. But I don't care what you call me. I'm trying to save my marriage. And that's a noble cause. I do what I have to do even as she rewrites our history. I know she's struggling too but hides it beneath personal attacks (spewing). Every once in a while I see a glimmer of hope - she says something that tells me she still has hope to reconcile with me.

U-turn, I know it's a marathon and thank you for your continuing support - thank you everyone for all your support. I know it means a lot to all of us struggling here on this forum. We do learn a lot from each other - even as we slip up in our individual sitches. Hey, that's the nature of the beast. Pick ourselves up, brush off and carry on. Noble. Persistent. Hopeful.

[sandi2]

I think that I may have added pressure throughout our marriage to get results).

This is a major challenge for you. Perhaps you do the same thing in other relationships.

As a former WAW, I can assure you that pressure will not work on her. Training yourself to interact without pressure or emotional blackmail will be work for you. She is not going to work "with" you on the MR until you do this work on yourself.

Anytime the LBS is improving themselves......there is progress!