Married now living seperatly

[FunDad]

After 18 years of marriage, my wife took our children and went to a rent house a week ago, one week after a hysterectomy. I'm hoping that after a while to heal her body, mind, and spirit, she will consider reconciling. For now however, I'm just devastated. We have had relationship problems in the past but it's nothing that can't be fixed. Yes, we did try extensive counseling until she stopped going recently. She's acting like a different person, and the friends she's relying on are not in favor of our marriage continuing. The others that want to see us reconcile, she has alienated.

So, in the mean time, I still support her financially. She gets a big chunk of my income and I guess that's doing good for her for now cause there are no lawyers involved. I'm not going to file first as I believe in not only our commitment to each other, but our commitment to God in marriage. She seems committed to her own happiness and I seem to be the stumbling block for her.

I'm not trying to pursue her anymore. I'm letting her have her freedom and space. Before she left I was being very tender and supportive, now I'm mostly business with her and not trying to make time to spend time with her. I help with kids, but I'm not trying to go out of my way to help her. This is really hard actually, but so is being constantly rejected. I have felt like an abused puppy at times and having some peace from that seems nice at times. Still, a huge hole has been ripped from my heart and sometimes I break down in tears of heart break. It's getting better with time however.

So, I've been reconnecting with old friends, family, and hobbys I've missed. Eating better. Exercising. Doing some things she would not approve of like picking up hitch hikers and going out of my way to help others.

I still hope we can put our family back together at some point, but she's going to have to take responsibility for her part in this and so far she just want to blame it 95% on me.

I miss my wife and our family, and do not enjoy the thought of two more broken homes.

[MrBond]

Sorry that you find yourself in this situation. You won't find a better group of people who are dedicated to try and get your M back on track.

First things first. Have you read DB or DR books? If not, then you have to do that ASAP in order to understand the concepts described here.

Now, going over what you just posted...

"We have had relationship problems in the past but it's nothing that can't be fixed."

That's your perspective. To her the conflicts seem that they can't be overcome.

"Yes, we did try extensive counseling until she stopped going recently."

Obviously there was something wrong if you went to "extensive" counseling. Whose idea was it to go to C? What marriage issues were there? Be honest and give us as much information as possible.

Post often and write down in your signature line how many years you've been married, kids, when you got the 'bomb drop', etc.

[FunDad]

Thank you Mr. Bond,

That was cool to say! I've read Dr. Dobson's book "Love must be tough". I have ordered the DB book and it should be in my hands soon.

The problems that I referred to was a list she put together that I was working on. She even agreed that certain aspects were getting better and our marriage counselor agreed these could be worked on. The problem is however that they are vague and difficult to measure. I would get to one point, and should would raise the bar. Many of her issues relate to me being unaware of others feelings in the home and being self-centered. Can't argue there. I do clue out sometimes and I'm not emotionally aware as she is.

We both were working on the counseling together until recently. This is sad because we finally found a real marriage counselor (as opposed to just an LPC) that was helping us when she decided my time to improve was up and she was moving on. She then had surgery, moved out, and now we are living separately. Thank God for friends, family, and counseling cause I'd be a mess with out it right now.

We have several adopted children. I feel awful for bringing them into this. These were her ideas, that I supported so she could be fulfilled in life. I feel like she is done with me and has used me for what she wants. I love all of our children, but knowing this would eventually happen would have changed my view on adopting children.

So she's recovering well from her surgery and she's on HRT. She looks better than she has in a long time and calm, finally. We actually had a decent conversation last night when I dropped off kids that did not include bickering. I'm choosing not to connect emotionally with her at this point and I don't let her argue with me. When she left, she crossed the line and I started the tough love approach. Even so, it's hard to balance the "tough love" with being her husband (provider, father, etc). Her love language is acts of service. Several times I've brought food over for her and the kids. I've had to rescue them with other situations also.

I could use advice on how to balance in this area. A few times she's opened up, and wants to talk about things that I would normally jump in and support her need for emotional connection, but even though it hurts me I'm choosing not to bite to maintain the boundary.

Thanks,

FunDad

[FunDad]

Another issue - She has a home business that requires her to pay a monthly fee (About $100) to maintain her position in the "network". I moved my paycheck to a separate bank account and she's upset that she's missing her commission because her fee was not paid. She never told me when it was coming out or how much, just expected me to pay it. I give her cash to support her and our children in her new place and that's my plan each month for the time being (yes, I have started asking for receipts). I pay all our other bills and her only income is this business. She used her pay last month to buy a cruise, that she never went on and could only get a minimal refund (I think she's in MLC to some degree and believes I'm the problem). Anyway, she's trying to blame me for this and wants me to pay her what her commission would be. Instead I have offered to help reduce her expenses other ways that are directly related to supporting children. I feel the monthly amount is a boundary and I don't want that violated. She used to be able to take our debit card and spend basically what she wanted and I'm the one who pays the bills and works the checkbook magic. Anyway, she has no job besides the commission. I'm wondering how others support a WAW that takes most of the children (I sill have our most difficult teenager at "the old house")?

[MrBond]

Can you post the list of issues she had with you here?

One thing to consider is that she also contributed to the failure of the M. If she doesn't take responsibility for the the things that SHE did wrong, then it will be one-sided on your part.

[FunDad]

Here is her list:

1Acts of service

2Making sure I have enough sleep, quiet time and rest

3treating the children and I with respect and kind tones- not as obligations

4acting as if people are more important than things or money

5not making crude sexual comments

6behaving in ways that are appropriate responses to other people's emotions

7not making crude sexual gropes

8recognizing that I am your biggest ally instead of your worst nightmare or enemy.

9having positive conversation and emotional connection without expecting it to lead to sex most of the time

10 realize that I need emotional lubonding before sexual encounters

11 be responsible, trustworthy and safe

12 don't provoke kids or I to anger, fear, or shame

13 don't say someone or their feelings are crazy (their behavior may seem crAzy, reactions may seem extreme but DO NOT hint that others are stupid, crazy or overreacting.

14 take full responsibility for hurt you cause. Honestly I'm not sure what would help on this because I'm sorry now seems very shallow

[MrBond]

Could you please elaborate? Alot of those things seem pretty important.

[FunDad]

Here love languages are:
1. Time spent (communicating and seeking understanding)
2. Acts of service.
Mine are:
1. Physical touch
2. Words of affirmation.

So we are polar opposites it seems. Anyway, we are (were) overwhelmed at home. We have adopted several children on top of the three we already had. She's a stay at home mom who wants to home-school while I'm out bringing home a salary. Even so, I do alot of running around town for groceries and appointments. The last adoption was a sibling set from foster care that came with deep emotional baggage including RAD and ODD. Anyway, back to the list. I have made blunders in the above categories and MY WIFE DOES NOT FORGET. For example, #13, has not happened very much but one time occurred in a big way. I felt like a jerk afterward, but my wife adds the incident to the stack of evidence that she feels leaving me is the answer (leading us to #8). Our sex life is non-existent. If I bring it up, it only leads to a conversation where she claims I should not expect any type of physical anything from her leaving me very frustrated. I understand she can't "perform" where her heart is now but it feels as though kids have come first FOR YEARS before our marriage. We have depleted our resources adopting children. It's been so many years since she has initiated and she says she has no need for it and any mention of it on my part leads us to (#5,7,9,&10). Btw - I found this board from folks over at experienceproject.com and I'm a member of the ILIASM. I'm still in what they would call "fix it mode". Dbing offers this group some hope, for which I'm thankful.

Speaking of hope. I received the DR (divorce remedy) book today. Interesting we also call DR (disaster recovery) in my work. So I'm on the step of last resort which lines up nicely with Dr. Dobson's "Love must be tough" approach (Let them out of the cage so to speak). Some notes of positive progress lately are that we are going several days with no arguments, no talk of divorce, and she even suggested that we all go eat out "like old times" as a family for the benefit of the kids. I'm exercising, losing weight, and involved in church and music again. All of which I gave up to be at her beck and call before she moved out. She's also asking me to help her with little things like hooking up appliances and little errands to test the waters. I'm emotionally recovered enough that I can show up with a good attitude at her "new" house and get it done and get out. I've made new friends (including my neighbors).

She has a gang of friends that have always wanted a closer friendship with her and one in particular has wanted for years for her to dump me. She even openly jokes about it on FB. I just let it go. From the DR, I now see why. She lost her husband a while back, and I think she wants my wife to help fill the huge gaping hole that was torn away from her. I feel for her, but tt's very selfish I think to want to a wreck a family out of your own self-centeredness. So I do not suspect an OMEA at this point but the OF's she relies on for emotional support are not helping and almost as bad. Ironically, one of them had to be away in another state for her own family emergency and things between us became much better. She's sending them my texts "He said this" for example for their review and then I get mean content back (She accidentally sent one to me). I actually do the same sometimes with a friend who was helping me to be tender before she moved out. Now that I'm detached, it's alot easier to respond by not not fueling the fire of her chaos engine with reminders that I love her. This is helping I think by giving her space.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[MrBond]

Actually, that whole post you focused everything on her and what SHE did wrong, etc. It just seemed like you blew off your role and responsibility in all this which you just listed.

"1Acts of service"

Did you not help her? If she was feeling fatigued and overworked, that's the number one reason why she didnt' want to have sex. You can't expect her to be in the mood with that many kids.

"2Making sure I have enough sleep, quiet time and rest"

This relates to the first part. Did you not help her? She's a SAHM. It's no wonder she felt overwhelmed.

"3treating the children and I with respect and kind tones- not as obligations"

This is very telling. Is this how you made it feel like? Not a very FunDad if you did.

"4acting as if people are more important than things or money"

Could you elaborate?

"5not making crude sexual comments"

Did you do this? If so, to who and about who?

"6behaving in ways that are appropriate responses to other people's emotions"

Please elaborate.

"7not making crude sexual gropes"

Did you grope her?

"8recognizing that I am your biggest ally instead of your worst nightmare or enemy."

Is this how you treated her? Especially if she turned you down for sex?

"9having positive conversation and emotional connection without expecting it to lead to sex most of the time"

Women (especially your W with the kids) need to FEEL loved and that they matter after giving so much to the kids. Did you ever consider that? You can't always "express" your love in the bedroom. That would be selfish.

"10 realize that I need emotional lubonding before sexual encounters"

That's very straightforward. Did you not understand this?

"11 be responsible, trustworthy and safe"

This relates to the previous two points.

"12 don't provoke kids or I to anger, fear, or shame"

Please elaborate.

"13 don't say someone or their feelings are crazy (their behavior may seem crAzy, reactions may seem extreme but DO NOT hint that others are stupid, crazy or overreacting."

What did you do?

"14 take full responsibility for hurt you cause. Honestly I'm not sure what would help on this because I'm sorry now seems very shallow"

So you haven't made amends yet?

[FunDad]

Actually, that whole post you focused everything on her and what SHE did wrong, etc. It just seemed like you blew off your role and responsibility in all this which you just listed.

-- Good point. I've been hard headed at times and have needed to be humbled in some areas throughout this process.

"1Acts of service"

Did you not help her? If she was feeling fatigued and overworked, that's the number one reason why she didnt' want to have sex. You can't expect her to be in the mood with that many kids.
-- I did help her, still help her, but the place is always a mess and over whelming with this many kids. My normal routine was get kids up for school and get them on the bus (so she gets to sleep in). Come home at lunch and talk and normally make her lunch (sometimes run errands). Pick up kids from activities after school. Help in the evening with supper and getting kids to bed. I recently hired some help in the house and that was amazing and will now be a part of my routine. I still drive over to the new place and help kids if shes needs it (all business however).

"2Making sure I have enough sleep, quiet time and rest"

This relates to the first part. Did you not help her? She's a SAHM. It's no wonder she felt overwhelmed.

-- She does get plenty of rest, but her body was sick a lot of the time. Her recent surgery cleared alot of the disease that was dragging her down. She's recovering well.

"3treating the children and I with respect and kind tones- not as obligations"

This is very telling. Is this how you made it feel like? Not a very FunDad if you did.

-- Sometimes I did make kids feel this way, yes, it was one of the issues that I had to deal with. I'm a pretty fun dad however. We do the pool almost everyday, go camping, play music, watch movies, and other activities they like.

"4acting as if people are more important than things or money"

Could you elaborate?

-- I get frustrated when I know we can fix it instead of buy new. Her and I feel differently about this and she wants me to see it her way and buy new. There were several instances where I know we can make simple fixes so we don't have to waste money on more stuff.

"5not making crude sexual comments"

Did you do this? If so, to who and about who?

-- Any hint of a sexual joke or humor directed at her is not appreciated. I stopped this a long time ago.

"6behaving in ways that are appropriate responses to other people's emotions"

-- I don't let our children's meltdowns control dictate my behavior. At times it seems I don't care and sometimes I really don't appreciate their feelings because they are being selfish. Kids are this way. Example would be kids not being able to manage video game time together which demands parent intervention. If I have not been home all day and when I walk in the door child X claims child Y has had three hours and child Y insists it's their turn, sometimes it's easier just to eliminate video games for all rather than to go in circles with kids about a privilege that has to be micromanaged by an adult who does not have time for that. On weekends when I'm home all day I have them set a timer when their chores are done as the standing system. This works great.

On the flip side I have been guilty of misinterpreting meltdowns for selfish behavior when it was absolutely not (tuned out to what was said).


"7not making crude sexual gropes"

Did you grope her?

She hates it when we snuggle in bed and I touch any area of her that is close to a personal zone. This was happening about 1 month when it was an issue. I would forget this every so often and it would make her feel unsafe around me. There was not overt groping in public or in front of children.

"8recognizing that I am your biggest ally instead of your worst nightmare or enemy."

Is this how you treated her? Especially if she turned you down for sex?

Yes, I would be suspicious of her, especially if she was turning me down for sex after days/weeks of none. At one point, she had agreed that we would have sex on a certain day of the week. The day would come and go with no sex. Sometimes it was discussed, but most days I knew better than to try to bring it up. Btw -I would be sure to be romantic for her during the week and sensitive especially around this day. That was sometimes seen as self-serving however and I was guilty of meeting her needs only so I could get mine met. I would actually keep daily logs on my phone of the acts of service and our conversations so I would know that I was making an effort to support her in our relationship. The efforts were still rejected (this is a maddening exercise btw and only serves to show you how much you are trying at things that simply wont work).

"9having positive conversation and emotional connection without expecting it to lead to sex most of the time"

Women (especially your W with the kids) need to FEEL loved and that they matter after giving so much to the kids. Did you ever consider that? You can't always "express" your love in the bedroom. That would be selfish.

Of course, one of my favorite quotes is "Before you touch her body, you must touch her heart". I realized after a while if she does not feel "in love" you however, it won't matter.

"10 realize that I need emotional lubonding before sexual encounters"

That's very straightforward. Did you not understand this?

- Yes, I completely understand this. How do men achieve emotional bonding however? Do you see the catch-22 here? Constant rejection does not serve very well to support emotional bonding.

"11 be responsible, trustworthy and safe"

This relates to the previous two points.

"12 don't provoke kids or I to anger, fear, or shame"

-- (fear) I'm spontaneous sometimes with plans. The became an increasing problem as our family grew. She hates uncertainty and going with the flow. So, I changed this. Every trip now has an itinerary posted on Google docs or another calendar service we shared. This was a big help, but it's still hard if people wont read the schedule and then complain they don't know (even if you read it to them in a group meeting).

-- (anger) I don't listen and hear things I should sometimes. I can just tune things out when I'm concentrating on something else. I can do this easily (a gift and a curse). It's getting better. I don't blame family members for getting upset at me for this.

-- (shame) Some of my kids have done some bad things. I accidentally brought one issue up in front of another kid in a joking manner that I should absolutely not have. I apologized for this and it wont happen again.

Please elaborate.

"13 don't say someone or their feelings are crazy (their behavior may seem crAzy, reactions may seem extreme but DO NOT hint that others are stupid, crazy or overreacting."

What did you do?
-- An example from about "fear" from above. Before we went on a trip, I would tell them exactly when and how we were getting somewhere with each transition mapped out. We took a plane trip to a large city recently, and I told everyone we will take a taxi from airport to hotel when we landed. Some of them had not traveled on a plane before and that feeling of uncertainty about exactly what's going to happen next hit them as I was finding us a cab. Not a big deal to experienced travelers, but to some of our kids, it was a big deal because of the new experience. I also got us on a wrong shuttle on that trip and it created anxiety. It was a 10 minute mistake, but created anxiety none the less for some family members. I'll admit most of my detail planning was to keep from being criticized by my wife. I was very tired of hearing complaints about not knowing what was happening when. It was a no-win situation because something always went a bit unexpected and opened us up to problems we were not equipped to handle together (used to attacking the person instead of the problem and putting me in defensive mode).

"14 take full responsibility for hurt you cause. Honestly I'm not sure what would help on this because I'm sorry now seems very shallow"

So you haven't made amends yet?

Actually, on a lot of these issues we had; however, when the relationship gets rocky, it seems past hurts are resurrected and become current feelings again. I know about Dr. Chapman's new "The 5 languages of an apology" and we were both working on that to some degree. If the love tank is already below empty however, there is not grace left for mistakes and apologies seem empty.

Like I said before, even she had agreed that I had made progress on most of the items on the list, but it was too little, too late apparently in her mind. I read today in DR that divorce is not the answer to relationship problems, and I still think that's very true, even in our situation. I'm still working on me with a counselor, and I hope at some time she will return to work on "us".