barely holding on - 2

[SunnyB]

Like you - I didn't give much thought to my relationship in the first 21 years. Then the bottom fell out and I had to look at what I had. (The answer is: a mess. Who knew?)

I think the thing about DB is DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

My H is in MLC - I feel very strongly about this. Part of his problem is with validation. Never in my life have I heard someone say so loudly and clearly, "PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO ME AND SHOW ME THAT YOU LOVE ME!!!" And part of me wants to tell that childish part of him, "DUDE, if you want attention, then you have to play nicely in the sandbox!" But...oddly....since I haven't really been that great at validating him WITH WORDS in the past, that's what I've been called to do. Step up to the plate, and tell the man that he is awesome when he is awesome. Sit on the couch with him and watch soccer with him. Spend time with him when he's home rather than ignoring him. So - it's not DB to a tee, for sure....because it definitely feels like pursuit. But he's shifting to me and I see a big difference in his behavior. Whatever it is, it's working, I think.

MLP I can so relate to this. I'm glad to hear it's working for you. It gives me hope.

[sandi2]

I'm conflicted with the DB techniques and my situation.

Many LBH's reach that place of confusion. I think one reason is b/c when he reads DB/DR, it translates or forms a picture in his mind of how that would look in his stitch. He likes it and decides to follow the DBing path. (Sadly, some people believe that DB is even suggesting a doormat style to saving one's M.)But each person forms their own opinion when they read.

As he begins reading more and more posts here on the board, he often will see some terminology that isn't quoted from MWD's book. He reads where some board members encourage the LBS to take a swifter approach/harder stance, while others believe a softer one works best. There are times the board members disagree. So, yes, I can easily see why anyone could get confused!

I also have learned that many people do not seem to realize that as time passes that some "techniques" or 180's (your plan of action) may need adjusting or revised b/c the stitch may not be exactly as it was the first day you arrived here.

Everyone here has different personalities. How some people decide to deal with their stitch.....other people would not, or could not, do at all. By reading your posts, I see a man who readily agrees he doesn't want a M with three people. You have a lot of questions, and that's good. You want to think about all your options and see what worked for others. That is good, too. It tells me you are not narrow minded.

On one hand, I think your emotions are wanting to press her for some answers, and to act really hardcore. However, I just don't quite see you being the kind of man who will actually draw the line in the sand b/c you fear she will ignore it...or step over the line and dare you to do anything about it. You avoid conflicts. You internalize your thoughts/feelings. And b/c you have known about this A for some time now and don't know how to deal with it. You absolutely need a more specific plan of action, or your frustrations will cause you to give up on DB and walk away from the board.

My suggestion is this: Get paper & pen and make two columns . Start jotting down some DB words that seem to contradict each other. For an example, take MWD's "act as if" and what it means. Then take "cake eating" and what that means. (I can't actually remember that term being used in her book, but IDK.) I know it is used a lot on the board. This one may or may not appear contradicting to you, but it is for some people. It's just an example.

Once you complete your list, see what fits your personality. You know your nature better than anyone, right? And if you're not sure about some term, ask us and we'll try to give you the answer.

39. If there is an OW/OM in the picture, don't focus on them. BE the better choice, which means being a spouse only a fool would leave.

"Be a spouse only a fool would leave" is advice from a DB Coach to 25yrs. She has passed that along to others, and it's great advice. To me, being a H that only a fool would leave....might not be the same definition as other women would have. I think you also need to realize that when you are in a M where there was, or still is, an A....you may not be able to a few things as effectively as when the MR was healthy. The mindset of your W is not the way it once was....before the OM. But I'll get back to that point in a minute.

If there is another man, don't focus on him/affair. That must be extremely difficult. It's easy for me to tell you to just forget about OM, but I have not been in those shoes. I can only forward what I have learned through observation and information. You can obsess about the other guy until it destroys the man you are....or would like to be. So don't let that happen to you. Take action now to see that it doesn't change "you" for the worse.

"Not focusing" means not to bring him up in conversations with your W. Don't make references to OM with some snide remark, etc. Don't ask questions about him. Don't do anything that may appear as if you have him on your mind. B/c it will take away from what you want to accomplish. You may not see it, but I promise you it does leave a bad mark if you can't find a way to release the negative affect and lean how to cope....in spite of the A. (And I don't suggest you internalize b/c that isn't healthy.) For you, it is probably very hard to keep a PMA while reading their messages to each other, right? That's b/c it causes you to focus on their A.

I don't want to stop right here, but I have to leave. I'll be back to finish.

[u-turn]

Thank you Sandi,
It will take me a while to digest this, but I think you are spot on with much of this (it's like you know me).

Sometimes it seems like I need to take a hard stance and push a little, but acting "as if" says a different thing.

I definitely keep my snide remarks in my head about the OM (I hope they don't even appear some day)

Thank you - reading this helps - I must not be the only one that feels this way

[sandi2]

Getting back to having a plan of action and being a man only a fool would leave.....you could give a lot of time and breathing space to your W. If you show her your confident male strength (emotional/mental)and have no clingy, needy, smothering ways toward her,....then shine brightly during the times you are together, in time (a lot of time)she just might start to see you as being the better choice for her....since she says OM will never leave his family. In time, she may get tired of of playing second fiddle to OMW, IDK. You can't be demanding, controlling, questioning, spying, and those types of things. B/c you will have to let her go. She will need to feel that she is free to do whatever without giving you an account. You can still have boundaries and when she breaks them.......you tell her she's disrespecting you and then remove yourself from her presence immediately.

Many men prefer this way b/c they feel they do a better job of showing her their charm & winning personality,good times, interesting conversations, validation, a PMA, respond in her LL, plus all the other positive behavior acts that men usually think is making him the man only a fool would leave. Oh, and don't forget housework. Most men add in the housework when they start thinking of improving the MR. I think the weak spots would be the tendency for him to slip into a position to follow instead of leading (which the M and family really him to lead). I could see how he could start displaying old habits/behaviors, begin compromising, cease to GAL, and feel his dignity slip away. I'm not saying the M can't be saved. I think it would take a lot out of a LBS b/c of the long length of limbo. However, if there are small children involved and the man can be both mother & father in her emotional absence....he may prefer this plan of action.

Another way (but a lot with what I said above merges with this) does requires her to be transparent, respectful, and willing to earn your trust again. IMHO, the best way this plan will work to save the M is either the W has to be willing and agree to the conditions he gives, and/or he has to be prepared to issue the consequences of her dishonoring his boundaries.(read that part carefully or you'll misunderstand). The M is saved due to her cooperation and his tough--no nonsense proactive plan. Basically, she has to learn the hard way.....or they split. But a lot of men say they regained their dignity by standing up to the WAW and calling her out whenever she tried to use him like her doormat. I believe he can still be the man only a fool would leave (and show all those characteristics described above) but he has to perhaps exercise a tougher exterior and not put up with her craziness. This is actually attractive to a lot of women b/c he takes that stance and she respects it. However, some men simply are too afraid of the W leaving, and won't this route. It takes courage to go the tougher way.

I have hit very few highlights. I'm sure it's quite obvious the path I believe in more strongly. Maybe b/c of the experience of being a WAW and knowing the mindset & emotions that are attached. You couldn't begin to know how many books I have read down through the years on the subject of improving a MR. But NOTHING I had read came close to the reality of being an over-the-hill WAW who was in personal crises and having an A. That is, until I read DR (and since then, some other books on the subject of infidelity). There is a tiny little line in the DR that many folks seem to miss when they read the book. MWD says that if the WAS refuses to end the A (after you have really tried to DB) then get a lawyer and file for D! It is up to the individual LBS how long they can endure the stitch.

But let me add this b/c I don't want you to misunderstand me. Some people believe this tougher stance goes completely against the DR book. I agree that you don't see Michele tell you to stand up to the WAW, call her out on disrespect, etc. (At least I can't remember it at the moment.) I don't think the term "transparency" was ever used. I'm not sure I remember her talking about boundaries, etc. (Guess I need to go back and read it again to refresh my memory!) So again, it's up to you which pathway or plan of action you choose to take. There should be no division, but I think there certainly is here on the board....partly due to their own experiences, the individuality of each stitch, and people's viewpoints about it. When all is said and done, I believe the center theme of DBing is to do what works.

Sorry that I can't use fewer words. "I can't seem to help myself". (Isn't that what the LBS says?)

[ye21]

ye21 never did understand the impact that his lying and non-support of his W did to the relationship. He changed from accepting responsibility for his part to it being his W's fault for not sticking with him. But if you don't change, why would the other person want to still be with you if the problems that drove you apart are still there?

Easy to say that without knowing the hole story, you are not the first one to think so however I am a victim of emotional abuse despite the fact that I changed many things about by myself.

Now back to the post of U-turn and continue in the same dinamic, work on DBing for you and be honest with yourself, all of us do things that have consequences, but walking in eggshells its not a sign of a healthy relationship.
You both have to improve things, and you cant take over your shoulders all the responsability of what happened, because will you really change what you can't control? Would you change what you like about you in order to have someone by your side?
I havent posted my whole sitch here but check this out, today I am sure that happiness is a choice and not a mood, you have to go through hell to be able to appreciate the changes you do in your life. Change what YOU dont like in your life but for you, not to have your S come back because it will not make you happy at the end.
Its fine to struggle with all this situation its actually a natural proccess but you are not alone, to love another person its fine and be with that person its great as well, not a good move if to be with that person you have to stop being yourself

[MrBond]

ye21, you're twisting things around like you did in your own situation. When everyone was trying to help you, you disappeared.

"You both have to improve things, and you cant take over your shoulders all the responsability of what happened,"

No one said that he had to take ALL of the responsibility. Just his part.

"because will you really change what you can't control?"

Actually you can change things that are not in your control. That's what the whole basis of DBing is all about. Change yourself to change the dynamic of the situation. Sometimes your changes affect negative reactions as well as positive ones.

"Would you change what you like about you in order to have someone by your side?"

NO ONE said that he had to change what he liked about himself. No one is perfect. He was just being encouraged to change the things that his W had issues with that may have been bad habits to begin with. For example, if a wife complains that her husband doesn't spend enough time with his kids, then you spend more time with the kids. Simple as that.

You didn't understand those basics. You may think this is picking on you, but the fact is that you are giving out the wrong information that will lead others to potentially fail in their situations.

[u-turn]

Mr Bond, I think I get this.

She didn't like my lack of self confidence and dependence on her.

I am actively changing this - finally realizing how this has taken a toll on me and her. Even as things are I'm finding that this PMA thing works and makes me really feel good and is contagious.

She also complained that I didn't give her support with her new career. I have definitely changed this and she has acknowledged this.

She has complained that I didn't handle special occasions very well (b-days, holidays). I will have to prove this to her at some point. I have told her that I regret these things but will show her positive changes.

Other than these things she never complained about me - about things that I didn't respond to and address.

I think changing things that I actually like about myself wouldn't be good because these were also things that she liked about me.

With my positive changes, I feel better and I hope she sees a better me. (And makes a decision)

[MrBond]

"I think changing things that I actually like about myself wouldn't be good because these were also things that she liked about me."

EXACTLY! See, things DO change that aren't in your control.

Now whether or not those actions translates into getting your W back, there's no guarantee. But you've got a better chance of it now than before.

[u-turn]

Sandi, again thank you for spending so much time with me today.
I see your point and know this is going to take time to get through.

But I look at it this way - I basically am not married to her right now. She has not indicated that she wants to work on our R. She has not "picked" me. She has not offered any movement toward me, but she still wants to try and have normal conversations, act normal and sometimes hug or hold my hand, say goodnight and have a good day.

I always have felt that I can love my way through the relationship with my W. I feel like I could try this again until I see that it is going somewhere or nowhere.

In either case that you stated, she has to earn my trust back. Currently I don't think she feels that way or cares.

Thanks again - I am going to re-read your comments X20. and try and digest them

[sandi2]

I am actively changing this - finally realizing how this has taken a toll on me and her. Even as things are I'm finding that this PMA thing works and makes me really feel good and is contagious.

It really does! Whenever I am around an enthusiastic person it seems to pep my own energy & interest. Same is true with people who are in a good/happy mood. It can be a challenge when living in a stitch like your, but that's why the PMA has to come deep within. You can't allow your mental attitude to function as a reactor to her moods or actions. Think of your PMA as a role model for your family. Your children, especially, need to see the correct way an adult conducts himself in the face of tension/turmoil in his personal life. Your W may respond positively or she may try to something else.......but I find it to be self defeating to be in a bad mood around a pleasant person.

I think changing things that I actually like about myself wouldn't be good because these were also things that she liked about me.

Well of course you shouldn't change the good to worse.......only to better, if possible.

So who has the next birthday? Was she referring to just her BD or the kids too? Did you join in with working their parties, or left it all to her? What would she usually do for your BD or other holidays?