WAW not admitting to affair #3

[shodan]

I met with my DB coach today. Her advice:
- keep doing what is working and don't do things that are not working
- She does not believe that my W is "faking" these changes on her end. there are too many drastic changes from things that she has said and done before
- She said to be patient however, and not expect too much. Just be a great friend for now, be a great parent and be consistent with my changes and 180s
- expect that my W will on a roller coaster for a bit of time....she may be cold/standoffish after being warm and friendly. She is still struggling through her journey. Do let this discourage me
- do not bring up the A, the $5K charge on the credit card, the lies, the deceit. She will tell me about them in time


Update on today...my wife and I have a funny back and forth on text today. She flew to NYC today but is committed to being on the 9pm flight home. She even said "for my next job - no travel."

Does this mean I fully trust my wife again? No. Does this mean we are back together? Clearly not. But, I have seen a slew of positive signs to give me the belief that I need to continue what I am doing, which is being slightly detached but still being fun, warm and doing nice things for her (e.g., I bought her two of her favorite magazines yesterday...she thanked me later when she came home).

[Starsky309]

Thanks for the update, Sho.

Let me ask you a question: on a scale from 1 to 10, with "10" being the most stubborn, how stubborn would you say your wife is?

She might just be giving you what you've asked for in the way of no-contact and transparency, without giving you the satisfaction of admitting to you that she's doing it? I'm leaning in that direction, but I'm still personally only leaning about 60/40 to the "sincere" side. Time and consistency will tell, plus any good intel you have to verify. Certainly all positive signs so far though.

The challenge in these things is that "genuine changes" look so much like the "St. Mrs.Sho" stuff a wayward can do while temporarily driving their affair underground, often at the advice of their attorney to "do X, Y and Z." Time will always tell though, and there's no reason not to enjoy the lessened tension and good times so long as you're careful. God knows you deserve some of them!


Starsky

[shodan]

Starsky, good questions....on a scale of 1-10, she is close to an 8, maybe higher. She hates being told what to do. if she is refusing to admit to the A, I am not sure if it is because she does not want to give me the satisfaction of being "right" or more that she is just not ready to say anything. If the A were going underground, I would think she would have only done a few of these things, but not all of them. Also, MA is a no fault state, so whether she has an A or not does not matter in a D.

Here are the list of "positive changes"
- said she does not want to move to NYC...said "NYC would be great for us but not sure about it for kids"
- commented "who is the idiot who takes a job on a whim"
- doing a day trip today when she easily could stay over
- has invited me to go with her to yoga a few times this past week
- has been proactively texting and emailing me the past few days
- is talking about the future as a couple and as a family
- has been more "affectionate", touching my arm, etc. No kissing or anything yet
- looked into yoga classes for us to go to together when we are on vacation

[Starsky309]

You might want to start thinking now, ahead of time, what your feeling (and stance) is going to be if you never DO get even an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of anything, much less any stated REMORSE about it. But if everything else just resumes a positive trajectory. Are you going to be okay with that?

Personally, I never needed an "I'm sorry" (many BSs don't get one), but I DID need to see some sort of INTROSPECTION -- some indication that my wife UNDERSTOOD the deep pain her destructive choice had caused the family, of why she might have done it, and what she/we might be able to do going forward to ensure that it never, ever happened again.

If you just get a big "Look, let's not go there," but otherwise things all resume positively . . . how will that do for you?

Just something to ponder.


Starsky

[25yearsmlc]

---She hates being told what to do. if she is refusing to admit to the A, I am not sure if it is because she does not want to give me the satisfaction of being "right"

would it give you that "satisfaction"? I mean, really?

or more that she is just not ready to say anything.

this^^ is at least one of the reasons, but I'd bet there are several.

If the A were going underground, I would think she would have only done a few of these things, but not all of them. Also, MA is a no fault state, so whether she has an A or not does not matter in a D.

So Legally, there is no reason for her to lie about it. But I bet she does not think the "road home" would be smoother or paved, at all, were she to admit it.

Please see her POV on this b/c she likely fears this ^^^ big time, the whole "throw it in my face if I ever tell him", etc.

At times like this, it's easy to forget that this is a traumatic thing for all, I'm sure.

Ponder how much harder it would be ((( OR seem to be to her))) to come back after admitting an A?


Here are the list of "positive changes"
- said she does not want to move to NYC...said "NYC would be great for us but not sure about it for kids"

^^^ Huge insight, CHANGE, and placement of kids over HER career/personal wishes of recent times...

- commented "who is the idiot who takes a job on a whim"
- doing a day trip today when she easily could stay over

=Choosing YOU/Family, NOT OM...

- has invited me to go with her to yoga a few times this past week

- has been proactively texting and emailing me the past few days
Reaching out. Initiating.

- is talking about the future as a couple and as a family


DING DING DING!!!!! Uh, YES that is what we call a POSITIVE. Yikes...want it written in letters in the sky? Sure sure, I know you're not out of the woods by a long shot.

But YES these are positives. No question.

- has been more "affectionate", touching my arm, etc. No kissing or anything yet
- looked into yoga classes for us to go to together when we are on vacation

Impressed...

As I said before, this^^ is a list of a lot of positives. This is getting very hopeful.

Good GOOD job...

[shodan]

Starksy..great question to which I don't have an answer. Let's say that the M got to the point of being "perfect", or at least "amazing". Big if. Do i need an apology or just knowing that my M is back is enough? not sure right now. Need to digest that.

25MLC...i am trying to create a safe environment for her and am not going to mention the A. I don't need to be right, trust me. and perhaps she wants to take this to her grave so to speak. She knows I know so does admitting to it change anything if we get our M back on track. Again, I have no idea.

Another positive change from today...my W was not going to be able to make the whole trip, had to be in NYC M-W for work. She emailed me earlier to say that she is trying to move her meetings so she can stay the entire time. Again, another positive sign.

[Starsky309]

Starksy..great question to which I don't have an answer. Let's say that the M got to the point of being "perfect", or at least "amazing". Big if. Do i need an apology or just knowing that my M is back is enough? not sure right now. Need to digest that.

And again, please don't misunderstand -- I'm not saying you should or you shouldn't, and many never do get any sort of stated remorse. From my experience and observation, I also don't think it's even necessary for a successful reconciliation.

I do, however, think it's necessary that BOTH spouses "get" what it was that got them to the abyss, go through the requisite introspection and self-improvement, and demonstrate to one another some sort of "Hey, I hear you and I get it" type of thing that shows that they really DO "get it."

I'm really just trying to get you to start thinking about this ahead of time. Because -- like affairs themselves being "dealbreakers" or not -- if stated remorse is NOT something you need to heal, you shouldn't push for it as it'll only unnecessarily make you look needy and/or "lording it over" her.

Does that make sense? I'm kinda rambling here.

Starsky

[shodan]

no, i get it. My initial instinct is I want my M back and I know pushing for certain things could hinder our progress. But perhaps a year from now I want to talk with her about her phone, for example, and how it is odd that she keeps the code from me? Or that she has this separate credit card that goes to her work address (I assume this is the case since the statement does not come home). But our switch is way to raw to mention this now.

[shodan]

As I mentioned earlier, my W did a day trip to NYC yesterday vs. staying over. The weather was horrible, so instead of leaving NYC at 8pm, she did not leave until 10pm. She got home a little after 1130pm. While she was waiting at the airport, we texted back and forth a few times, with her commenting that travel s**ks a few times.

This is showing me she is working to be more committed to our family. Does this mean we will get back together...who knows? I need to remind myself to continue what I am doing but not pursue her. I know I will have the tendency to do that, which could push her away.

Any advice out there from anyone, assuming we are "moving" toward repairing our R? Do I play the same game, GAL, etc? Do I pursue more?

Lots of love for everyone

[shodan]

Update on things....last night I had a guitar lesson (I am still bad) and then went out with a friend for dinner. I came back and talked with my W for a while. About life, about what my therapist and I discussed today, etc. Again, lots of good connecting. I even joked about how my therapist told me that talking and listening is good, but don't be a typical guy and try to fix whatever your W mentions. I told my W this and that no guy knows this. We think by listening and then offering up solutions, we are being extra awesome...I am listening AND providing help. My W agreed that women just want someone to listen to their problems. I told her that all women need to tell men this...they don't know it.

But, my W is still standoffish and not being physical of any sort. I have been somewhat flirty with her but in an "as if" way, telling her she looks great in a dress or that I like certain underwear that she is wearing. She will say either "thank you" or "i have had this dress for two years, you never commented before." But, she is not responsive to me. Clearly, she is not ready to "work" on our M and R. She said that it is hard to just turn on her feelings.

My guess is the advice will to back off and be patient. We are 2.5 months removed from her BD and she still may be in an A or perhaps recently ended it. Should I continue to treat her as a WAW even though she is somewhat more committed to the family and us?