afraid I have waited too long #4

[nit84]

Thanks again Sandi you have given me some things to ponder.

[Wonka]

Nit,

What were you thinking??!! You actually talked with your W who did OM's laundry at YOUR house??!!!

What a nit!

When I first learned of OW, I was angry and forcefully told Ms. Wonka that OW wasn't allowed to come to the house or near the house. Ms. Wonka understood and got the message loud and CLEARLY. I meant business. Result? She then met up with OW elsewhere. Grrrrr. Damned if I let the OW on or near the property. I cannot imagine seeing Ms. Wonka doing OW's laundry at MY HOUSE.

Forget it!!! Not happening.

You don't need to yell or be demanding at all. You just calmly and firmly state to W that she's not to bring any OM-related stuff or things around the house. And no texting (calling) OM in front of you, in or around the house.

I could have got up and took them out of the washer and proved they were but she has pulled the "I'm afraid of you card" out in the past when I attempted to be somewhat forceful so I didn't need that added into the dynamic again.

Why not?! I would have done it anyway irrespective of W's reaction. Many WAW's throw out the "you're controlling" or "I'm afraid of you" line to get the LBH's to back off on putting in place boundaries on the OM.

I said well when will you be done with OM laundry, still pretty weak I know but at least she now knows that I know she has been doing his laundry.

How is it important that W "knows" that you know she's doing OM's laundry? All of this makes it look like that you're ok with W bring back her boyfriend's laundry back at your MARITAL home. Don't you see how laughable that is, Nit?

The OM's clothes would have been out in the trash bin or thrown out on the yard pronto.

[nit84]

Wonka,

I told My W when I moved back home in December and she freaked that I wasn't going to let her play house while I was living in my childhood bedroom.

I had some info but not enough in my mind to expose or accuse my W of an A. It wasn't a deal breaker for me so I thought about the worst that could be happening and felt the emotion then I let it go. Some vets gave me this advice and I tried to follow it.

As for phone calls, I know she is making them while at home but W is doing it in the privacy of her bedroom.

OM has not been in my house since I moved back and best I can tell only twice total once in Oct. 2013 and once the night before I moved back which had a lot to do with moving back. Neighbors are looking out for me so I know this is true. I didn't ask them to watch my house but they offered when I spoke with them that there was no suspicious activity while I was away.

When it comes to the laundry issue, I should have said something the very first time I discovered this. When I finally did My W knew I was pi**ed and that I thought it was disrespectful of her to be doing it at all let alone in my home.

I pondered throwing it all out but didn't.

When I explained to my W my feeling of disrespect she denied it all as I expected and got defensive. I continued on and she said I thought this was ending nicely but you always have to start s**t. I explained that I wasn't doing that and sorry felt that way. I was just letting W know that it was wrong. I could have raised my voice more but I didn't.

It does no good now but my thinking at the time was by letting the W know I knew what was going on. She would wonder what else I know about. I have plenty of intel but have been advised by my L to keep most of it to myself for right now.

This keeping stuff to myself till needed seemed to work back when the spousal support hearing took place. She said she was shocked to find out what info I had and how I surprised her and her L by showing up with a L when I hadn't told her that I was retaining a L. She was not providing her L with certain info, according to my L, that probably could have saved some embarrassment on their part.

After the hearing she was furious and I explained to her that this is what D looks like when you(I) have to protect yourself moving forward. I never got into a screaming match but I firmly told her that she was just pi**ed that she got caught having an A and doing other things that looked fishy.

I was "dead to her" at that point she said. I went about my own business not worrying about her. A week later she started up a conversation that grew into an argument no yelling on my part, a lot on hers, I validated as much as I could. She mentioned that a lot of people asked if I begged, pleaded, or asked her to work on things and said I love you to her. She told them I hadn't. I did at the very beginning of the S but not since until the day of the spousal support hearing.

That day I told her I know what is going on with OM if you stop the A we can work on things because I do love you but can't work on things while you are doing this. She denied the A so that ended that.

Her version was, the first time you told me you loved me in a year was after the hearing while you were accusing me of have an A.

I don't let the possibility of my W getting upset affect whether I say something or not.

I think that I over think things before I do act and then the timing is off to have any effect.

I also value your opinion Wonka and welcome any other advice, suggestions, criticisms etc.. as you see I certainly could use the guidance.

[sandi2]

I need to ask a few questions if you don't mind so I make sure I understand what you are saying.

Okay.

Sandi, I thought that one of the main points of DBing was to work on yourself and try and not let what the WAS does affect you? I have made a choice to work on myself for myself. I believe I know some of my part in the failing of my M and have set out to
work on this to become a better H. For instance, not yelling at, bullying, demeaning, or demanding it be done my way or no way. This is towards everyone not just my W.

So what are you asking me?

I won't live in an open M, but my W has to want to work on things before I can talk about the steps I will need to feel "safe" in trying to revive our R correct?

Are you asking me if this is a correct descision or step or if it is correct DBing......or if I agree with it? Not sure what you are asking me and I want to answer you the best I know how. So I will just give my thoughts on what you've said in the post, ok?

I think many men fall between the DB cracks trying to find balance between his old behavior and the changes he is trying to make in himself. If he was short tempered, controlling, self-centered, etc.......then he often goes completely to the other extreme and be begins acting submissive to whatever his W says/does. He is scared of her leaving so badly that the fear overtakes his thinking and behavior. He lays downs and become whatever she wants at theat moment.......a cat to kick, a doormat to wipe her feet, an erran boy, housekeeper, cash cow, ..........(you get the picture). If or when he does say something, it sounds like a whipped pup who is scared of his master. In other words, his attempts are too weak and come across to her that you've lost your masculinity. A WAW in an A will feel disgust for a man who will not take charge of his own situation and stand up to her and talk like a man.....instead of teenage girl. Women can handle any man who talks and acts like another female who is weaker than she is. However, when a male stands inches from her face (looking eyeball to eyeball) and uses an authoritive voice to confront her disrespect, she will have a different reaction.

The strong woman who has ruling the MR will probably scream/yell/ throw a fit.....whatever, when the H stands up to her. But if he won't back down and tuck his tail between his legs, she will eventually respect him for taking a stand against her disrespect. Oh, she won't tell you that she respects it .....but she does. Right then, she's just mad and trying to get the upper hand, but deep down in her soul, she will respect a man who will not tolerate her cr@p treatment of him.

You will not gain your WAW's admiration/love without her first respecting you. You can't make another person admire you or feel love, but you certainly can onfluence respectful behavior from those who live in your house! A man can earn respect by the way he uses his voice when he speaks. Not by yelling.....not by threatening......not by loosing his cool......none of that stuff. A man can speak with a certain "power" or "take charge" "authoritative" sound that can draw a natural inner response within the other person......especially women b/c (I believe, b/c of how most of us are wired). You teach others how to treat you. You have been teaching her she can cheat and rub your nose in it (washing OM's clothes in your home) and you do nothing. This your home! You have a right to be treated with a certain degree of outward respect. I say "outward" b/c we can't make another person feel something within their self. See the difference? First comes the outward, then the feelings will catch up.

admit I should have said something the very first time I discovered this but I didn't. When I used to get angry in the M I didn't handle it correctly. I wouldn't stay on point and would bring up past issues that I knew were very hurtful to my W. Since the S I have tried to keep our argument in the "fight fair" arena.

The past is over and it does no good to bring it up when we get upset. The best way, I believe, is handle the issues when it first occurs. If you don't then it sits in your mind and grows into deep resentment. That resentment comes forth when you get angry and drag up the past. Why not nip it in the bud? Same principal when we are raising kids. We have to deal with the issue when it occurs and not continue to bring it up every time they do another offense.

I really need help I guess because maybe you are correct when saying the things I consider DBing really aren't or they won't work.

Not necessarily. I think maybe you are just confused.

I'll start another post to finish. Do not want it edited b/c of length.

[sandi2]

A week later she started up a conversation that grew into an argument no yelling on my part, a lot on hers, I validated as much as I could.

Okay, so she's yelling at you and......you are validating her? Why? Do you validate other people who get into a screaming fit toward? Listen Nit, yelling at a spouse is disrespectful behavior. That is not the time to validate, IMO. There is a time and place for everything.

To me, it sounds as if you are confused about when to use some of the DB do's & don'ts.
So this is what I suggest at the moment.

1. Start seeing yourself as a free, self-confident, strong male who commands respect from those he interacts with face to face.
2. Have an attitude (or pretend to yourself) and act as if this house is YOUR home and she is only an older lady who is staying at your house temporarily. Measure your actions and interactions according to the image of her being temp boarder.
3. Stop walking on eggshells. It is not saving the M. Relax and be yourself.
4. Stop waiting and watching for her to make changes, or for her to suddenly announce she wants to work on the M.....or when you get to have "the talk".
5. Drop all emotional ropes you have tied to her. Stop telling her that you two can still work on the M. It is pursuit.
6. Do not link her or the M to your needs at this time. She is a boarder.
7. Stop trying some gimmick, hoping it will get a positive response from her.
8. Move forward in your actions, attitude, etc. without her........for now.
9. Be polite and show respectful behavior to her. When she says or acts disrespectful when she is in your presence at home, you deal with it right then. You are trying to control her life. She is living in your home and you will not tolerate ANYONE showing outward disrespect to you in your own house.
10. Stop doormat tactics. It is extremely unattractive and it is NOT the DBing way.
11. Figure out your personal boundaries. Figure out, now, what you will do then if one is broken by your W. Boundaries are set to protect something of yours that is valuable. Research some boundary information on the Internet. Short articles, etc.

I have admittedly been a doormat in a lot of our interactions. This is where I get confused. I want to keep the road home paved and smooth but I also can't let it be at the cost of my dignity or self-respect.

Well, just as some men misinterpret DBing for doormat tactics, they can misinterpret the meaning of keeping the road home paved smooth. What fool would be attracted to a man who had no dignity? It always blows my mind when a man thinks this is what women want in the male species! If you had been that way when she first met you, there would not have been a wedding (unless she had ulterior motives). Women want men to act like men. If a 180 means, to you, that you stop acting like a man.......then it's not a 180 to implement. See what I mean?

I believe you need to stop explaining to your W what you are doing, your intentions, your wishes, etc. b/c it does not help the cause. Stop talking about the M, R, S, D, or the past. Just let it go. You should be in full swing of the LRT.

Some of the things you mentioned, (transparancy, etc.) are steps to be used later....if their is reconciliation. It is not for the present time. I think you are "getting the cart before the horse " with some things and it can sure cause one to be confused.

[Wonka]

Nit,

I think Sandi has done a superb job of explaining the difference between quiet power and submissive behaviors. I have nothing to add here as Sandi's captured many of the essential points that you might want to pay attention to and absorb into every cell within your body.

Give it some time and eventually you'll get the hang of it.

First and foremost, you must STOP being afraid of W and her reactions. Be absolutely fearless with your own brand of quiet power that is assertive without being aggressive.

[PeterV2]

Sandi, can I get your advice on my sitch when you get a chance.
Thanks

[nit84]

Sandi, Wonka, THank you so very much I will respond asap. Whole bunch of Cr@p going down today

[nit84]

Wonka,

I like how you say Quiet power, I never thought about it that way. Firm but not aggressive. Thank you!!

Sandi,

Thank you very much for taking so much of your time to help me gain an understanding of DBing, I really want to do it correctly. You are exactly right when you say I have things mixed up. I have allowed myself to be a doormat. I thought it was the correct way to do things(wrong) because of the comments that my W has made all along. I'm controlling, co dependent, smothering etc. I went to the complete opposite end of the spectrum thinking it was a 180(bonehead move).

I also thought that keeping the road home paved means no arguing, fighting etc and picking your battles.

I realize those things like transparency are not to be used now or until there is movement(a lot) towards softening of W heart towards me. I explained myself wrong there. Explaining what I mean is a problem for me. I am very detailed oriented but sometimes talk so much I confuse the people trying to assist me(including my W at prior points).

I used to jump to a lot of conclusions earlier in my M. I would get upset, not necessarily angry but just disturbed, over stupid things. My W has made comments pertaining to this as far back as 4 or 5 years ago. She said she was afraid to tell me things because she knew what my reaction would be. I, of course, became defensive and dismissed it. It wasn't until the S that I stepped back and took a look in the mirror and realized that my W had some valid reasons to be afraid to do or say something. not because of fear of physicality but because I wasn't open minded or patient enough to see her side of things. This wasn't an all the time thing but it was enough of the time to land me on this board.


The question I was trying to ask was. Isn't part of DBing worrying about what you can control about yourself and not worrying about the WAS thinks or how they react to certain actions you take for yourself?

Your list above is quite extensive. Thank you. I will try to address each one like this:

1. I do see myself like this with a lot of people just not my WAW enough because I am confused when to be assertive and when to back off for my benefit.

2.I have an attitude but I need to show it without sarcasm or judgement.

3.Easier said than done but trying as hard as I can. Most days are fine just have a bad one every so often when I sense W is upset about something(not me all the time).

4.Stopped waiting for W to change but I am observing what my W is doing or how she is acting based on advice from IMC.

5.Haven't told her that in 3 months and that was 1st time since I moved back home last Dec and W has commented on that being the case on one or two occasions.

6.I don't need W or M but I want W and M. Is this the same thing?

7.Could I have an example of a gimmick that I may be doing? Maybe I don't understand.

8. Have been doing GAL without regard to W. Only thing I won't do is date. Allowing myself to change my mind on this if I want but for now I have no desire to "test the waters".

9.I am kind and respectful TOO kind and respectful. I need to grow a pair again. This is a work in progress I have them I just got to show them a bit more often in the correct way at the correct time.

10.Hopefully, I will be doing just that in a very short time (thanks to you and others with such great advice and thoughts).

11.I thought I had personal boundaries way before this all started but now that I am in the Midst of this hell my ability to find forgiveness for myself first, and then my W and others has allowed me to become somewhat more tolerant( I suspect some will say this is to my detriment on some levels).

Thank you so much for your help.

My W moved out 2 days ago. I knew it was coming. Hopefully I handled it in the best way possible.

It has been a long couple days. I will share the details tomorrow.

In the mean time any other advice is welcomed.

[Wonka]

Nit,

You might want to look up Train's and MDU's threads over in Infidelity for some ideas on proper boundary setting for a WAS in an Affair.