WAW not admitting to affair #3

[shodan]

25mlc

thank you for reading my thread and providing advice and input. A lot to comment on:

re: my parenting...my W and pretty much everyone I know will say that I am a great father. I have had temper issues for sure, but I have devoted the last 10 years (since my d was born) to my family. But, I have room for improvement. I spoke with my d about the incident that my MIL mentioned and she did not remember it at all. I pulled her and my son aside and told them about the changes that I am making and asked for their forgiveness. They both have commented that they love the new me. I joke that "new" dad is cool if they do X but "old" dad probably would not have allowed it. The funny thing is that my W and I seemed to have switched roles (and personalities). She is more strict with the kids, more impatient, etc.

re: becoming the man only a fool would leave...I know that I am showing this. Every once in a while I tell my wife that we have a great chance at a second marriage but together. I referred to myself as her second husband. She even has used this from time to time, once when we took the dog for a walk and my W brought a glass of wine with her. She said "my first husband would never have allowed this."

re: the A...I don't want my W to admit to the A so I can be right. and I know it is an A. The text was VERY EXPLICIT. She has lied several times about places where she supposedly was that I have proven was not the case. I want her to stop the A and agree to some changes so we can work on our M. Specifically, she agrees to give me the code to her phone, she changes her phone number, she either cancels her new CC or puts it under our joint names and she provides to me detailed itineraries for when she travels. But why would she agree to that if she never had an A?

what is ironic is one of her best friends is D because her husband cheated on her (hookers and had a mistress on the side). The friend figured it out when she went on her husband's phone and read some text messages. My W of course thought this was totally appropriate at the time but I AM the cyber stalker when I do.

I also know my W is very stubborn and will not want to admit she is wrong. She is more likely to sweep this under the rug. But without full disclosure, how can I know she has ended the A?

re: detaching and GALing...this has been the hardest. We have kids. My W travels a lot. My friends are married with kids. I cannot actually go out three nights a week unless I want to pay for babysitters and not see my kids. They already comment that my W travels a lot and is not home a lot.

re: NYC...I want to view it as you outlined it. As a positive note, perhaps where she may have ended the A or is thinking about it. But, I also wonder if this is a cake eating oppty...live in Boston, "work" on the M and go to NYC 1-2 nights per week for work and for the A. Maybe she does not want us to move because it would end the A. It is a lot harder to have a secret A when your H is in the same city. Of course they could do secret rendezvous but it would not be as easy as they have it today.

re: my changes...i hit absolute rock bottom the night my W asked for the D. It is pretty easy to change your life when that happens. I have thanked my wife many times for what she said because I am a better man because of it. I know that I am a great husband. I know that I am a great father.

so where do I struggle...GALing and detaching. I took my first Brazilian Jiu JItsu class this weekend and may start that up b/c they offer morning classes. But I do miss my old dojo (similar yet different martial art) because I have good friends there. Friends in whom I would trust my heart and soul. But the classes are at night, which interferes with family time. I am doing a ton of stuff with my kids and not just sitting around. Once per week I find myself out for a work event (previously I would have come home to be with the kids or just gone to the dojo because I was so obsessed with practicing). I am thinking about getting some golf lessons. I may do that while I am on the cape. I have had two guitar lessons. These are all things that I enjoy but I am out meeting new people through it? Somewhat. But there still is a void.

My W gets back tonight from her girl's weekend. I have not texted her directly all weekend but have responded to a text or two. She asked what my S and I have been doing, for example. She probably will be back in NYC for one night this week and I know will be there for 1-2 nights the following week. she has legitimate work reasons to be there, I know that. But, she also has the OM there as well.

Should I ask her about the $5K AMEX bill? I know it will just start a fight. and I know on this bill is a huge charge for very expensive concert tickets...she told me she was going with clients for a work event but I know this is a lie. I know she bought very good seats for her and the OM (the concert was Jay Z and Beyonce, so her seats easily could have cost $1-2K each). so seeing the bill gets me no where and just proves what I know. But she has to know that i know about the $5K and that it is inappropriate.

[Nettles]

The trip was not punitive. I needed some time off. My wife is taking the following week off.

Does this mean W can take kids somewhere her week off and tell you that you aren't welcome?

[shodan]

Nettles, yes, she absolutely can do that. Right now, she invited to come and is planning to come for part of it. Her desire to be with us does seem genuine. However I struggle with boundaries. If she comes with us, is that cake eating? She gets to play the dutiful W/mom and then go to NYC for two nights (again, I know she has meetings there but that also is where her OM is).

Starsky...here is the issue, the money she spent technically is her money. our living expenses are relatively low and we make good money (but individually and collectively). we save a ton of money each year so she can argue that this money comes from there. Setting a limit to what she can spend on her own will seem somewhat arbitrary.

I need to think about this one...

[Onguard]

25mlc, thanks for the comments. I have read most of DR but not DB. I have shared my situation with a few close friends and my waw has done the same. I have not done any campaign of exposure and I agree that it would not help anyone to do so. I have shared simply out of a need for support and a place to go instead of pursuing her.

Shodan's situation appears to have a better chance of survival than mine thankfully. So, I am hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. I have zero interest in any other women right now but it still feels good to get attention. My last remarks about younger or successful women were a cheap stab at a couple of my waw's insecurities combined with a poor attempt at humor.

[25yearsmlc]

25mlc

thank you for reading my thread and providing advice and input. A lot to comment on:

re: my parenting...my W and pretty much everyone I know will say that I am a great father. I have had temper issues for sure, but I have devoted the last 10 years (since my d was born) to my family. But, I have room for improvement. I spoke with my d about the incident that my MIL mentioned and she did not remember it at all.

We all have room for improvement. I assume you realize that your MIL probably did NOT make the story up? So your d either actually forgot about it (God, I hope) or she is uncomfortable discussing it with you at this time. That is a distinct possibility you can't just omit. Nor must you "do" anything more about it since you already had what sounds like a healthy discussion.

I pulled her and my son aside and told them about the changes that I am making and asked for their forgiveness. They both have commented that they love the new me.

2 thoughts about this^^.

1) Way to go! My father was in some ways a great man, with tremendous strengths of character and a brilliant mind. He was also an abuser of alcohol for a chunk of my life and was abusive as hell when he drank. On his deathbed he gave me and 2 siblings (of 9) a real apology and asked us for our forgiveness.

Thanks to a lot of therapy and a great personal growth workshop I had attended a few years earlier, I had already done a lot of forgiveness work. But when I told him "You are forgiven", it was one of the holiest moments of my life. I am forever grateful for it. But sure, it would have been wonderful if he'd said it earlier.

I for one am a big believer in "better late than never".

Second thought was that there probably was more validity to your MIL's interpretation of events since your kids HAVE noticed a difference between the "old dad" and the "new dad." I mean it tends to support the notion that real work was needed there. But all the better, right?


I joke that "new" dad is cool if they do X but "old" dad probably would not have allowed it. The funny thing is that my W and I seemed to have switched roles (and personalities). She is more strict with the kids, more impatient, etc.

I think marriages and parenting evolve, and often have an "ebb & flow" kind of course.

So when one parent gets more strict/lenient, the other often compensates all in a subconscious attempt at finding "balance". I would not read a lot into this, other than a generic observation, (at this point anyhow.)


re: becoming the man only a fool would leave...I know that I am showing this. Every once in a while I tell my wife that we have a great chance at a second marriage but together. I referred to myself as her second husband. She even has used this from time to time, once when we took the dog for a walk and my W brought a glass of wine with her. She said "my first husband would never have allowed this."

Wow, that^^^ is an amazing comment for her to make. YES it's a positive!


re: the A...I don't want my W to admit to the A so I can be right. and I know it is an A. The text was VERY EXPLICIT.

I believe you (but just to ask ONE more question...you said this was a former bf from HS, correct? If so, is it possible they were referring to their old days/ways?) I only throw that out b/c I always want to find a way to give the benefit of the doubt absent "proof", but bear in mind I'm a L so for ME, "proof" has a meaning not everyone else applies to it




She has lied several times about places where she supposedly was that I have proven was not the case. I want her to stop the A and agree to some changes so we can work on our M.

You read the DB/DR books, right? Seems she is NOT ready to do this^^ so you have to exhaust the methods/approaches in the books first, and if you have done that (and only if) then you go to the LRT.

In that case, you still don't talk or mention the OM.

Do you get that? Remember she is NOT here working on the M, you are. So you can only make so many demands...unfortunately.

Do you believe that 6 weeks of "change" is enough to convince her that you won't revert to the old ways if you two reconcile? I guess you know by my question, I think 6 weeks is not enough to undo years of behavior that contradicts it.

I read somewhere around here that it's a month of change for every year of behavior, to hope that the spouse will believe in the changes. In any event, I use the phrase "Do the math" to say

"consistent change + sufficient time = change a spouse can believe in.



Specifically, she agrees to give me the code to her phone, she changes her phone number, she either cancels her new CC or puts it under our joint names and she provides to me detailed itineraries for when she travels. But why would she agree to that if she never had an A?


To prove she isn't NOW...? And wasn't a comment of hers (and an admission of yours ) that you are too controlling? I KNOW a lot of WAS's use that phrase to dismiss the need for transparency. But in your situation we know there was some validity to it.

Which makes your position a bit more tenuous. But think about this: if she had a short term fling or a one night stand OR an affair that is over now, and NOW (or soon) she were to be transparent, would you then demand to know the past?

I ask this for 2 reasons. First, I'm curious b/c I think it's a common occurrence we are not all prepared for and second, b/c many of our vows say "From this day forward".

(God, I think those words are freaking brilliant!) But what I mean is, at some point

You WILL have to let go of this, right? I mean if you two are to reconcile and restore your m. I guess I'm really just saying, "choose your battles wisely" and don't fall on your sword for everything.

Decide if THIS is the hill you'll live or die on. For ME, if my h were to become transparent, yes I think that would be enough for me. I would not need to agree with our history and that's actually a final comment on this issue.

My h and I do NOT review our past the same way. For a LONG time I wanted us to see things identically. But now I don't. We both put away our scorecards and we both are honest and upfront NOW.

Have been since Retrovaille. (Maybe before--- but I'm not sure and I don't care now whether it has been 6 years or 7...KWIM?)




what is ironic is one of her best friends is D because her husband cheated on her (hookers and had a mistress on the side). The friend figured it out when she went on her husband's phone and read some text messages. My W of course thought this was totally appropriate at the time but I AM the cyber stalker when I do.

I also know my W is very stubborn and will not want to admit she is wrong. She is more likely to sweep this under the rug. But without full disclosure, how can I know she has ended the A?


(Not to quibble, but didn't you fault yourself for being stubborn? Is this HER flaw or yours or both? It's important we not project our flaws onto our spouse and then in effect punish them for being like us, esp when they are not that much like us in that regard)

The other point here is you are asking how you can know IF the A is over, etc.

I'm asking you a different question.

I'm asking you how realistic it would be for your wife to want to work on things and become transparent - IF it were not over? Why would she give up NYC and want to quit her job and stay in MA more, if the A were hot & Heavy?

I know there are cake eaters but frankly, from my experience it's almost always men who want to cake eat. (Sorry guys but I have a theory!!)

I say this b/c women tend to have affairs with men whom they feel emotionally bonded with or attracted to, and or who fill some need of theirs whereas men can have affairs that are purely physical.

(I also think you once admitted you had NOT been expressive to her about how attracted you are to her or her looks, and I think she even said she felt unattractive to you. IF that is the case or was, it's darn painful and destructive for a woman).

Plus, I hear it said SO OFTEN that it might have truth in it....

many people who have had A's, (regardless of what "type" of affair it was including ones that ended fast, or lasted for years) preach "Deny, deny, deny".

They argue that this allows the LBS to maintain their dignity, while lowering the chance of them filing for divorce.

I will NOT defend this^^ belief so much as pass it on to you b/c there are SOME cheaters who do regret the affairs fairly fast, and do NOT want to deal with losing their marriages. And who do NOT repeat it.

(Like in the film "Fatal Attraction" but without the crazy murdering.)

Remember when Michael Douglas "gets it" and says "I don't want to lose my family"?? That's before Glen Close goes nuts! I got the feeling he was NOT going to cheat again -and that was BEFORE the rabbit!)

Just throwing out some thoughts b/c I have seen marriages survive affairs and I have seen some end b/c of affairs.

Here's my worst case scenario, which is what I happen to believe your wife fears most.

That is you two stay together and you stay miserable.

I think she fears that YOU will bring up the A all the time, or you will throw it in her face in every fight, you will feel "owed" the right to decide things or make the big choices b/c after all, SHE CHEATED, and you hold it over her head like the Sword of Damacles the rest of her life. AND OR you won't work on yourself and you will focus your energy on HER A and not on your own shortcomings, (which you were getting in touch with and talking a lot more about, BEFORE you learned of any A...)

I think Most LBSers go thru a period in piecing, IF we get there, in which we do feel "entitled" to get our way a lot more. That's b/c of the hurt we feel. It's not productive but it is common. Been there, done that.

I have seen this^^ more than once and it's the worst choice to make. If you cannot get past the A, you should probably do yourself (and your family) a favor and move on now. No judgement here.

But If you think you could, then you have to at least act like it.

I am NOT saying "ignore it", (though MWD does say to never mention OM and to act as if, etc and that is in her LRT, after you have exhausted the other DB approaches).

It's just that if you harp on it enough she will probably think to herself, "he'll never let go of this if I admit it. He can't let it go NOW - so how on earth will he move on and have a good marriage, if it's out there?"

And IF by chance it's already over now, I personally think it stinks that it would end the m, now, after she has already figured things out. But maybe that's just me and a few friend who have dealt with it as an issue in their m.



re: detaching and GALing...this has been the hardest. We have kids. My W travels a lot. My friends are married with kids. I cannot actually go out three nights a week unless I want to pay for babysitters and not see my kids. They already comment that my W travels a lot and is not home a lot.

Understood. I'll post separately about that but still say it helps YOU and your w's view of you and is not always as bad for the kids as you might think. Even now my kids seem to love me doing my hobbies and pursuing my passions, so I can surely imagine it more if they'd seen me being sad or hurt recently.

.


re: NYC...I want to view it as you outlined it. As a positive note, perhaps where she may have ended the A or is thinking about it. But, I also wonder if this is a cake eating oppty...live in Boston, "work" on the M and go to NYC 1-2 nights per week for work and for the A. Maybe she does not want us to move because it would end the A. It is a lot harder to have a secret A when your H is in the same city. Of course they could do secret rendezvous but it would not be as easy as they have it today.

I see your point but I don't agree. I think it's a lot harder to have an A if you have to travel for it. You for sure are limiting how far it can get however. I mean, if she won't move there, then what's the "long term A plan"?

To forever see each other 2 days a week? Gee that sounds super passionate...a woman in a long term Affair is going to feel "in love" and will want to be with her "true love/soul mate" blah blah blah.

I know this is sexist to say, (I'm female so I'm allowed!! )

but from what I've seen and experienced with friends and family, I don't really know but maybe 1 woman who had an affair, without ever intending to end their m's. As opposed to 10+ who had affairs, and then either ended the A's,

OR divorced their spouses for OM.

It's a rare woman who "plans" on having a part time affair for long.


re: my changes...i hit absolute rock bottom the night my W asked for the D. It is pretty easy to change your life when that happens. I have thanked my wife many times for what she said because I am a better man because of it. I know that I am a great husband. I know that I am a great father.

Now "all fixed" or in the process of becoming? Not quibbling here, just saying it always scares me when someone thinks that a month of two of traumatic feelings will permanently last - without some serious support work.

Knowing what NOT to do helps us, but knowing what TO DO when we are stressed or angry or frustrated or sleep deprived or in grief, or a combination of,

we need positive role models or models of NEW behaviors--="New Tools" if you will. And that requires help, imo

so where do I struggle...GALing and detaching. I took my first Brazilian Jiu JItsu class this weekend and may start that up b/c they offer morning classes. But I do miss my old dojo (similar yet different martial art) because I have good friends there. Friends in whom I would trust my heart and soul. But the classes are at night, which interferes with family time.

If they are good friends apart from Jiu Jitsu, why not go out sometime during the weekdays or weekend days and combine their families or just hang with them, NOT leaving your kids behind so much? Just spitballing here...

I am doing a ton of stuff with my kids and not just sitting around. Once per week I find myself out for a work event (previously I would have come home to be with the kids or just gone to the dojo because I was so obsessed with practicing).


Glad that^^ has changed! Sounds much healthier. IN the past - my h has had some "hobbies" that SO occupied him, it turned the rest of us off the hobby. That includes karate and wrestling (our son did take the state championship twice, but b/c of the extreme levels of practicing my h "encouraged" in son, S quit when he turned 17. Bummer. But h can get immersed a bit too much. And he's working on it now. Like most of us and like me, he is a work in progress.

I am thinking about getting some golf lessons. I may do that while I am on the cape. I have had two guitar lessons. These are all things that I enjoy but I am out meeting new people through it? Somewhat. But there still is a void.


Void? Meaning not meeting enough new people? Yeah, and you miss your kids time too, and they miss having A parent around...I'll ponder more as I'm sure you will.


My W gets back tonight from her girl's weekend. I have not texted her directly all weekend but have responded to a text or two. She asked what my S and I have been doing, for example. She probably will be back in NYC for one night this week and I know will be there for 1-2 nights the following week. she has legitimate work reasons to be there, I know that. But, she also has the OM there as well.

Should I ask her about the $5K AMEX bill? I know it will just start a fight.

If you can't discuss this without it leading to a fight, then you have your answer. Maybe however, you CAN deal with it calmly? Or productively? Have you run this by a DB coach? They are perfect for this type of situation and Not escalating things. My DB coach taught me so much and was a real Godsend. She kept me off the ledge a number of times AND was a lot gentler than I wanted to be....but she gave me marriage saving advice.

and I know on this bill is a huge charge for very expensive concert tickets...she told me she was going with clients for a work event but I know this is a lie.


Read the LRT and other parts in the book bout if/when to confront the spouse, but also TALK to your DB coach asap about it. It's eating at you and that is not a good place to be in, when you bring this up, ( IF the Coach pushes that at all - I am not sure they will. )

I know she bought very good seats for her and the OM (the concert was Jay Z and Beyonce, so her seats easily could have cost $1-2K each). so seeing the bill gets me no where and just proves what I know. But she has to know that i know about the $5K and that it is inappropriate.

Hang in there. I truly see several positives in your situation. WE cannot tell you how to fix everything or guarantee improvement, but most of us can advise you on how to make it worse.

The DB coach will have positive suggestions for you. Good luck!

[shodan]

25mlc

You effectively said everything my MIL said to me today. She said forget the A and focus on yourself. Focus on being a great father, person, etc. And, do not bring up the A, do not bring up the $5K CC, etc. If my W wants to talk about it, she will. But forcing the issue will show me to be controlling, which is exactly what she said was one of the main issues. and she also agreed that while I am different and believe that I am different, it takes time to change the past. My wife wants a different live than the one she has now. My changes have been seen positively, but I need to sustain them longer (this is from my MIL). In fact, your advice and her advice are so similar I wonder if you are her.

I will post more later...I am BBQing some chickens and veggies (although my S7 will NEVER at the veggies).

Thanks again for your advice and support. It means the world to me.

[shodan]

I am meeting with my db coach on Wednesday and my therapist on Thursday. Both seem to think that the best thing that I can do us to NOT do certain things. Don't do or say anything that will lead to a fight or argument. Don't do anything that creates a negative environment. Just have PMA, be pleasant, be a great father and continue with my consistent changes.

[Starsky309]

Don't do or say anything that will lead to a fight or argument. Don't do anything that creates a negative environment.

To this I would add "unless it involves one of my own core boundaries." The way it's stated above always SOUNDS good, but far too often I see people here using that as justification to DO NOTHING, including protecting their own and their family's core boundaries of personal integrity, be they legal, financial, emotional or sometimes even physical.

The best advice I ever got in my sitch, I got very early on, and it said that instead of doing things from a perspective of "What will my wife think if I do thus-and-such? Will it make her angry? How will her reaction make ME feel?" and instead replace it with "In every situation, do the thing that God Himself would have you do, if he were standing right in front of you, and don't worry about your wife's reaction to it."

Put more simply, it all comes down to "Pick your battles." Yes, you blow off the small stuff, and even on the BIG stuff you remain pleasant and civil and you don't enforce boundaries from a position of simply being a dikk. But sometimes you DO need to enforce them, regardless of the anticipated blowback.


Starsky

[shodan]

Starsky

Thanks for your input. I clearly am conflicted here, but I believe God would say to forgive my W and be pleasant, be nice and be civil until I cannot do it anymore. If I reach that point, then I need to move on. I am not there yet. Yes, I hurt inside and yes I yearn for my family to be back together. This is her journey and I am going to let her take it. I will run along side the journey until I reach my limit.

Given she has not admitted to the A, I just need to detach and GAL. I am going to see a friend tonight and have a guitar lesson on Thursday. My wife is traveling for work on Wed, so we will only see each other tomorrow night. I also have a meeting with my DB coach on Wednesday and my therapist on Thursday morning.

My wife needs space. Her exact words to my MIL were "I want a different life than the one that I am leading." Very MLC in nature. She is struggling with being a mom, a wife, and an individual. But ironically, when she got back from her girl's weekend in Colorado, she was exhausted and basically said she had fun but it really was not what she wants to do. Drinking and partying all night, not sleeping, etc. is not what she enjoys. What does this mean for us? I have absolutely no idea. But do I think my W went a little crazy and maybe is coming back to reality a bit? Maybe. Time will tell.

[Starsky309]

Starsky

Thanks for your input. I clearly am conflicted here, but I believe God would say to forgive my W and be pleasant, be nice and be civil until I cannot do it anymore. If I reach that point, then I need to move on. I am not there yet. Yes, I hurt inside and yes I yearn for my family to be back together. This is her journey and I am going to let her take it. I will run along side the journey until I reach my limit.

Given she has not admitted to the A, I just need to detach and GAL.

Oh, don't get me wrong, Sho -- I agree with *all* of that. I just am encouraging you to have healthy limits. Healthy for you, healthy for your kids . . . and not let "I don't want to make her mad" be your overarching driver.

Your wife actually sounds a lot like mine. Mine too had a mini-MLC, I think, in looking back on it. She had gone from living with her parents to marrying and living with me, and then we raised 4 kids together. I don't think she ever found out who (my wife's first name) is.

Starsky