WAH & MLC? - EA/PA - Please Help

[Train]

LOL, Starsky!!!

I'm bringing the marshmallows and ... um ... TEQUILA! The good kind! We deserve to splurge.

[Train]

Earth to Sam. Earth to Sam.

How are things, lil mama?

[Train]

Checking in again, busy woman.

Drop by and tell us how you are.

[Sam3]

Train,

Thank You so much for the reply. I appreciate you taking the time to check on me. I have had a sick kiddo this week. I have not had the time to do a lot of thinking about my stitch.

This week has been interesting. I did talk to H briefly on sunday evening. I asked what he meant by saying I could fix this. He went on to tell me that it is basically what I thought- I don't pay attention to him, I'm too focused on kids, don't show enough affection, I'm no spontaneous anymore.

He again wanted to have a physical relationship. I kind of said "that's not going to fix anything" He said "we aren't trying to fix anything, lets just have sex." Uggh.
Sun night - he had 1 of our boats loaded to take with him back to town that he works in. I told him that it was half my boat. H said nope. This was done in a casual conversation. By me asking where is the boat going. You know it is half mine. This conversation was light & almost joking.

This week was interesting because since beginning of June I have been dark/dim. No real communication between us throughout the week - except about kid stuff or house stuff. I don't ask what he's doing. He doesn't ask what I'm doing. Baby had a dr appnt on Tuesday. He texted me early Tuesday morning to let him know how Dr appnt went. He called while I was loading stroller in the car. I missed the call. So I texted him back. Then he called me. We talked about the dr appnt. And somehow started talking about things with us. he said I can't believe you want half my boat - I had that kind of boat before we were married. The other boat is half yours. I said nope. I said I guess we can pay attorneys $500 an hour to figure it out. he had me on speaker in his office. Then he starts laughing. And says his secretary came to his office & closed his door. He said "she thinks we're serious. She doesn't know we are playing around."

Wednesday he calls at 11 am. And we never talk during the day. To tell me he wants me to go buy an ipad for me & kids to use. I said Okay. I was taking my older kids roller skating before we went to the mall anyway to get new school shoes. So after we skated I sent H a video of the kids(it was their first time skating.) I have not sent him any pictures or initiated any contact (unless about house issues - like the lightning strike) in the last 2 months unless he has asked for a 4th of july picture or a picture of the baby because I kind of thought of this as pursuing.
I bought the ipad & sent him a text thanking him & telling him how much we appreciate it.
Thursday he called again at 11 am - I missed his call. I sent a text back a little while later just saying to let me know if he needed something. He texted me back a random about how he found out something else in our house got struck by lightning a couple of weeks ago.

He talked to the kids at night and didn't ask to talk to me. I called him back few minutes later just to let him know I was taking the kids out of town this weekend and about where we might be going. I had 2 options. Told him I would let him know.

He sent a text today asking where we going & I texted him back to let him know which activity I decided to do. He called this evening - big kids were eating dinner & I was taking care of baby. So I answered & told him what we were doing & I would have them call him back.
My D5 called him after dinner & he talked to S4 also. He did not ask to speak to me.

So kinda interesting that he has called me this week. I feel like we are becoming friendlier. After 2 months of hardly any talking. But, I don't know if I should continue to stay dim or be friendly & occasionally send text pictures of kids. I don't want to pursue him. I also don't know status of OW situation. Thoughts?

I am still DBing my behind off. Like taking 3 little kids away this weekend. My mom is going with me to help - Thank goodness. I am trying to be the person a fool would leave. But this dual track thing is very hard.

I was reading a post of pilot's this week and I kind of felt like I could understand how a LBS can become a WAS. My marriage sucked for the last year to year & a half. I'm changing but he's not. Not sure he even thinks he needs to. I can become a person would be a fool to leave but I'm not sure were that leaves him & our marriage. Or if I even want him again. I guess I'm angry again about how this has happened. And if I want to keep standing for a marriage & family that he could so easily walk from. When I look at the big picture - it stinks. I don't know if I want a H like he is. Even without the OW nonsense. The strip clubs. The money I now see that he's spending. I'm not an equal partner to him & don't know if I ever would be.

To answer your questions -
I have heard it around - Inaction IS an action. But please explain to me how? Because I feel like it's turning my head & ignoring the stitch.

My state does not have a legal separation & there is no waiting period to get a divorce.

I would get more between alimony & child support than what he gives me in the "allowance" check. But, he is paying all the bills. I haven't crunched the numbers exactly.
(By the way when I mentioned something about alimony he again said nope. You can get a job just like everybody else.)He rally has no clue this D will be for him. And yes, he will be paying a very big chunk of change to me monthly. The L estimated between CS & alimony about $9k monthly he would be paying. But, like this weekend I'm putting on his amex. The ipad went on his amex. So, I really have no need to ask him for additional money. We (me & kids)aren't doing without anything per say - but h is living the high life and we are not.

I too find myself wanting to tell him things just to let him know I'm not stupid. But Okay, it's ego. And I will try to keep it put aside.

The boundary about the burner phone is that I asked/told him to not text or communicate with OW in front of my children. And he probably most likely is because my D5 told me that he has another phone he uses for texting & one that he talks on and takes pictures with.

I did not bring up the burner phone. Yet anyway. He does seem to answer his regular phone promptly & return texts. This is recent. As in the beginning he would ignore calls & texts from the kids if he was out or doing something fun. And I knew this to happen on several occasions because I had access to his calendar. When he was on vaca with OW - we didn't hear from him for 2 days. Out to dinner with OW-he would ignore their calls. Now we at least have a pattern that he calls around when he gets off work. So we don't interrupt his going out in the evening. lol.

Thoughts. Suggestions. 2x4's??

Okay - I think that's it. I have been reading while feeding baby at night. But it's hard to write a ton from my phone. My goal is to post frequently.

I really appreciate the support and advice from everyone here.

Thanks!

[pilot]

Sam,

You and I are kind of in similar situations. We both have spouses who have engaged in an A, and both were dark/dim (minus kid stuff) for a couple of months, and we both now find ourselves where our spouses seem to be more engaged with us. Also, we both really have no idea as to the status of OP. Last but not least, we both really do not know how to react to the overtures from our spouses. Do we continue dark/dim, do we reciprocate, is there a happy middle ground? I am going to follow people's replies to you and see if it might apply to my situation.

I really have nothing else to offer as we are pretty much at the same point, and I am really just guessing as to what I should be doing. It is like it feels like my W is opening a door, but I am not sure if it is wide enough to walk through or if she is just peeking out to see where I am.

Best of luck to you...I will keep reading!

[Zues126]

I'm tired and probably shouldn't be posting, so forgive me if this isn't useful. Let me just say I hate what your H is doing but think I get his point of view. Let me say that I hold myself accountable for the majority of the breakdown (see my thread), just that I get how it played out so poorly so naturally.

I was in a similar spot in my M. My W was a SAHM and her life revolved around the kids. 11 years together, 3 children, that means she was pregnant and nursing much of the time. Then with the 3rd child she was always busy.

My biggest gripe was that she cared more about the kids than about me. I see many sources say the M should come BEFORE the kids. Maybe that's not valid, but either way it sure wasn't that way in my home. Letting herself go, not being attractive, not being interesting or interested, and not having time for me. It made me angry because when it was something the KIDS needed she did it because "I'm there mom and they depend on only me" but when it was something I needed somehow I was an adult and should be able to understand that "this is how life with kids is".

I was really angry about the lack of sex and the lack of effort on her part. I had to beg or manipulate for sex, and then it was fairly boring. I told her this was like my #1 most important priority and yet if I didn't say anything I would go without for weeks or months. I didn't feel it was fair and couldn't handle the amount of hurt and neglect.

So I did use porn. That made it worse, driving a wedge further between my fantasy and reality. I did spend more time on my own, until we basically lived separate lives. She in turn focused on being a good mom, which in turn meant I didn't get involved as a dad and was rarely around. This cycle just got worse and worse.

What I see in your H is that he still loves you. He's paying all the bills, that isn't so he can cake eat, it's because he loves you and that is his way of showing it. Maybe that's taken for granted, but in his mind he's trying to be noble and show he cares vs. manipulative games with $. I hate the A but again, I almost feel like he's saying "This is what I need more of, I can't live without it, I wish you could give it to me but you don't seem willing". So when he's asking for sex, etc, I think he's just looking for signs that if he recommits to the M and gives up what he has now (what he feels he NEEDS) that you'd be more committed to meeting those needs than when he felt he couldn't take it any more.

He would need to know you UNDERSTAND how important this really is to him (enough to leave), and that you care enough for him to change a LOT for this to work. That means things like being more physically intimate, but also making him more of a priority overall (so he's not getting the leftovers after the kids but the actual meal). I could go on about what he might want but that's a start.

So if you have the attitude that he's wrong about his needs simply because he's handling himself poorly, that could be tough. I agree with firm boundaries (no OW activity in your house, no intimacy unless he cuts off relationship and recommits to M, etc). But if that's ALL you do that's not enough. Saying "you have to choose" is no good if you don't give him a reason to choose you. And being stronger on your own and ready to move on is better than pursuing, but doesn't make him feel safer. In fact, it might make him feel more vulnerable and hurt that you'd rather move on than make the changes he's REALLY hoping you'd make.

And the talk about not knowing if you'd take him back. Look, I don't pretend to know how tough it is, but if you can't validate and meet his needs then you probably shouldn't. But if you can then I don't think you have to condemn him based on his behavior during a period he was beyond his ability to cope.

I'd give some thought to how much you could grow in those areas. Then- what have you done to show him those changes? I know GAL/Detaching/180s are generally about YOU, but if the problem is that he's concerned you don't care about him enough to meet his needs better then I think you have to grow and demonstrate the growth in those areas to get you back.

Again, in my sitch if my W had done that I would've been all in. Seriously, if she had one time said "I love you and you are my #1 priority. I understand how important our sex life is to you so want to make extreme efforts to become more exciting and passionate there. In fact, I've read up on a few things I'd like to try, can you join me?" I would've done anything. If she had said, "Now I have some needs that are just as important to me as sex is to you, can we discuss?" OF COURSE I WOULD! I'D BE IN HEAVEN AND WANT TO DO ANYTHING TO RECIPROCATE AND SHOW MY LOVE AND APPRECIATION! She never did that. Of course, I misplayed my sitch as your husband has and she DID become the WAS. So now I'm trying to grow but still in a spot where I'm not sure I'D reconcile without seeing changes like that.

Cliffnotes- Your husband has told you he needs to be more of a priority in your life and feels that when you spend 1:1 time with him, and his extremely extremely extremely important needs of understanding/satisfying him sexually. Would you be willing to grow in that area? If so, have you done anything to demonstrate that?

[Sam3]

Guys- Thanks for stopping by.
Pilot- I see some similarities in our stitches. So I'm also interested to see how yours progresses.

Zeus- I really appreciate your perspective. I remember reading your story when you first posted. Here's the thing- from my point of view: we weren't in a sex starved marriage. He did complain that he always had to initiate. But in my defense, I have 3 kids 5 & under. My H works out of town all week.
We always had sex at least once on the 3 nights he is home, usually twice.
Now, I will admit things changed some towards the end of my pregnancy with baby 3. And then there is a 6 week wait after having the baby. Plus, I had a critically, unexpected sick baby.
I'm not trying to minimize his physical needs. But I guess I just don't understand how sex needs to be above taking care of our children & getting stuff done while I was at the hospital with a sick baby.
He started his unhappy talk when baby was 10 weeks old. Pretty poor timing in my eyes.
Before kids and even during this last pregnancy. We always had an active sex life.
Before he worked out of town - it was still at least 3x per week.
Remember this is also the man that told me 3 weeks ago- "what happened to your boobs? You're going to have to get those fixed."

How can I be married to someone so shallow?

And since this has happened, I started putting things together & I hear about other strip club stories, I'm seeing them when I looked back on credit card statements.
It just makes me feel like I've been so deceived. I think this has gone on periodically throughout our whole marriage. And because I don't really like the thoughts of my husband hanging in strip clubs for no reason - I guess he lied to me .

I'm admitting & acknowledging to my part in the breakdown of the marriage. And the other problems that we had. I know that he had emotional needs & I physical needs that I wasn't meeting. I don't have a problem reaching further out to him about the sexual relationship. And I think what you said that you wished your wife had said to you. I can do that. I can change that. That's not a problem for me. It's hard to demonstrate or even have that talk b/c I don't know status of Ow.

I do have a problem if he wants to continue to frequent strip clubs. I don't know if I can stay married to that person.

This whole experience has changed me. I will be a better person because of this. I will be a better wife. Either to him or someone else.

I wish life lessons weren't so hard.

I am also beginning to feel that he views me as an object.

I appreciate that he continues to provide financially & I'm also thanking him & telling him how much I appreciate it. 180 for me. I always just expected him to provide & did not express gratitude. So I have been telling him Thanks frequently.

My thoughts today are that Love is patient & Love is kind.
I don't know how I could be more patient or kind in this situation.

I want to work on my marriage. But I will not live in an open marriage, while someone is having an ongoing affair. I feel like need more boundaries.

The fact that our communication is so limited actually has really helped step back, detach & concentrate on me.

I'm not even sure the physical relationship is the biggest problem in our situation.

I'm just confused.

[Zues126]

Thanks for reading my thread and post. I don't know for sure what your H's biggest issues were, but based on what he's told you and is doing with his time it seems like it was sex/attention/excitement. This is so standard I'm mad they don't teach it in school. It played a big part in my R's breakdown.

Be careful not to dismiss his feelings. When you say "I was at the hospital with a sick baby" you are absolutely right- logically. But emotionally he was probably feeling not only hurt, rejected, and frustrated (which are a BIG deal). But also misunderstood that you didn't validate those feelings. Unimportant because he came last after everything else. And scared that he would continue to feel that way for years.

What I wish my wife had understood is how to validate my feelings about this. If she understood how big of a priority it was to me then even when she truly couldn't make that possible (which I hope was a true exception not a habit), instead of rolling her eyes and saying "how could you expect sex right now" (dismissive), instead came to me and said something like":

"Honey, I'm so sorry. I love you and I know how much you need me, and I'd like nothing more than to make that possible. Right now I just can't because of the situation. I want you to know that I understand how you feel and you're my man so that matters to me. Trust me, one of the reasons I'm trying to get this handled so quickly is because I want to be close with you again. And if you can be patient I'll make sure to make it up to you (WINK)". And then if she backed it up with a great evening some other time...well, I don't think I would've had ANY problem without sex for a few weeks here and there.

Needless to say she not only rolled her eyes at me, but as I grew resentful then condemned me for the way I 'acted out' and used that as further proof that I had problems, not her.

Now, she was absolutely right about the fact that I behaved TERRIBLY. I have no excuse. And I also know I caused her tremendous pain with my actions as your H is causing you.

As for the comment "why would I want to be with someone so shallow". First, rejecting a man for being open about his sexuality seems equally shallow. But more importantly, take that as a BILLBOARD as to what he wants. He loves you and wants you to understand him, validate him, and make him and his needs more of a priority.

Clearly if he doesn't change to an extent you can't make it work, no one is questioning that. But the DB method is about changing yourself to see if it will lead to a healthier M. AND you aren't a genie. So you can't give him everything he wants and needs. But if you understand/validate his needs, change to the extent that's possible, and explain reality to him in a more affirming way as I did above...well, I'd say that's a woman only a fool would leave.

How do you demonstrate this growth while maintaining boundaries, avoiding pursuing behavior, and detaching/GAL? No clue. DB coach or vets?

HINT- may be a good idea to reread my post, it is probably parallel. And I was in the same spot...I couldn't tell my wife I quit porn as that is pursuing and crosses our current boundaries, but how else could I demonstrate that important change? One that might keep us apart if I don't tell her? DB coach told me that I could do it by doing 180's on all the things porn represents. In particular, treat my W and daughters with respect, validate their opinions, compliment them on things other than their looks, etc. She said the change would come through. Wonder what the parallel is there?

Take care Sam!

[Sam3]

As for the comment "why would I want to be with someone so shallow". First, rejecting a man for being open about his sexuality seems equally shallow. But more importantly, take that as a BILLBOARD as to what he wants. He loves you and wants you to understand him, validate him, and make him and his needs more

Zeus-
Again, I appreciate your feedback. What I saying above about being shallow was specifically in reference to his comment that "I needed to get my boobs fixed." That was hurtful. Especially because the last time he had seen me, I was still breastfeeding. Now that I have stopped, they have gone back down.

I understand the physical relationship is something he needs & wants. Just not sure how to even address those concerns at this point.

Thanks!

[CaliGuy]

Sam

Just read your sitch .... new here so I will not offer anything other than this .. I think you are doing very well all things considered, this forum is so uplifting and gives us all hope, just by reading your thread,I have learned so much. I admire your stance and need to borrow some for my own sitch.

GL

CG