On the brink, need a miracle

[Maybell]

I'm going to defer to Train when she gets back, but I want to say... There is absolutely hope.

I'm so sorry for the way she treated your daughter. That was incredibly unkind. I'll keep you both in my prayers.

[Starsky309]

I'm sorry she told your daughter without you, Onguard. That was unconscionable. I hope she didn't flat-out LIE to her, as kids -- more than ever -- need honesty thru these difficult situations.

Do you think your wife would agree to FULL TRANSPARENCY in exchange for not moving out of the house? I tend to both agree and disagree with your counselor; separations DO rarely lead to anything positive, but at the same time I think it's perfectly wise, healthy and necessary for you to insist that your marital home NOT be used to conduct another affair. If you had a good transparency plan in place, including at least one channel of intel that your wife did NOT know about ("trust, but verify") then I could see allowing her to stay there, for the sake of your daughter and so that she could continue to see your positive changes.

I would NOT expect remorse from her at this stage, or even commitment -- this is pure "compliance" at this point, for the sake of the family unit.

Do you think she would agree to that? Could YOU remain detached if she were still under your roof?


Starsky

[Train]

Got my break now.

I'm behind Starsky on the compromise to keep W in the house, so I have nothing to add to that.

Circling back to the notion of losing hope because of what she wrote?

Don't let that deter you at all.

My H had told me, during our S, that he had written about "the past 10 years" and would give me what he wrote to help me understand his rationale ... and to see that he wasn't changing his mind and returning to the M. I told him I wasn't interested in reading anything he wrote while in the fog of an A; my logic told me - correctly - that there would be NO use in reading all that garbage. Because I knew that's all it was: garbage.

But guess what? I got my hands on that letter - as part of my "Operation Trust - but Verify" - AFTER H was home. It HURT to read, but mostly, it left me dumbfounded to know that the same man who had felt those feelings and written those words just two months earlier was asleep beside me in our marital bed.

I don't have to go into detail about the things he said. But rest assured, OG, that your W - in giving you ANY credit AT ALL - is miles ahead of where my H was when he left me. He didn't throw me a single bone!

And, yeah, I planned a beach trip with my kids and offered to let H come for the last couple days to spend time with the kids since I had taken away some of his days with them to be there. He was sending flirty texts to me on his way to the coast. And we spent an entire day with the kids on the beach and had a remarkable time. He even insisted on taking us out to dinner at a very nice restaurant. But while we waited, he went and grabbed us a beer at a nearby bar. And inside that bar (I would later discover, thanks to Operation Trust - but Verify), he texted OW. Since I had drawn a boundary with H before he joined us at the beach that there would be no texting OW in front of or around the kids and me at the beach, OW asked if he was alone. He told her he was with the family but had tucked into a bar. (She would often send replies like: "She's so mean." Lol.)

They chit-chatted for a few minutes and exchanged "I love yous." But the very next night, once we returned back to town from the beach, H began indicating he wanted to reconcile.

Sometimes, it happens THAT fast.

They are ALIENS, OG. Don't even try to get in that brain to figure her out. But absolutely do not allow the things she says or does make you lose faith that she will come around.

Now, about that in-home separation ...

[Onguard]

I dont think she lied to our daughter. I had a couple of talks with her and she didnt indicate anything out of the ordinary.

As far as full transparency goes, no chance on earth. In fact, she has stated virtually from day 1 that she refuses to live "like that". She will not be treated like she is in prison. This is one of many, many issues that leads me to believe that our marriage is doomed. But it all branches off from the fact that she is not in love with me and has no desire to be with me right now. She is going to do what she wants, when she wants and with whomever she wants without asking or explaining. She will not let me see her phone. She knows I have the password to her verizon wireless account, so I can see some numbers that she is texting or calling. But imessages don't show up (this is how she communicated with her AP without me knowing). She could have changed that password at any point but she has not for some reason. I also have the ability to see her credit card transactions.

Remaining detached would be great. But I am having a hard time detaching period. Being with her since I was 13 is making this extremely difficult. Like you said in one of your previous posts on another thread, it feels like a truck is parked on my chest. But seeing her definitely makes it harder. I still think she is the most beautiful woman on earth and it's killing me.

The latest update. I was out of town on for 2 days. I got home yesterday afternoon and could tell that she was angry, as usual. I opened an individual bank account and my paychecks are now being direct deposited into that account. She figured that out yesterday when my check didnt hit our joint account for the first time in our lives. She said I am acting like someone who is already divorced. She also said that "I almost signed a lease yesterday". I asked her why she didn't and she said "I was not 100% on the apartment and I wouldnt know what to do when I got to the credit app."

Then she mentioned what she refers to as a barrier to us ever being together. Sex. She said that she can not imagine how I could ever have sex with her again. She can't see herself being with me. I said, "I am not sure. Today I couldn't, but in 3 months or 6 months, who knows. It depends on what happens to our feelings between now and then." But for her, the way she feels now is exactly the way she will feel forever. According to her. She said that she wants me to go out and find someone. That it would level the playing field if I did. She is convinced that if we ever got back together that my mission would be to get revenge and SHE could never trust ME.

It is talks like this that really make me want to throw in the towel. She is just cant, cant, cant, cant... It's one of the things she did in our marriage that she denies. Constantly seeing the bad side of every situation and giving no effort to see the bright side.

[TRDiver]

Onguard,

I feel for you, I really do. Especially can relate to the being together for so long and detaching being very difficult.

I'm no expert, but her comments about finding someone else and not being able to trust you if you got back together sure sound like guilt statements. Perhaps that means there's a part of her that's ashamed and knows this is wrong? That might be hope in itself, that some part of her is feeling it. If she was totally indifferent that'd be worse, I think. Again I'm no expert.

[Onguard]

She must not realize that I know where she keeps her journal because I found another new page. This one says that her emotions are constantly shifting. She is now leaning towards marriage counseling. She asks why her feelings toward me are returning and she wrote down: He is not making me angry on a daily basis. He is not badgering me. He is moving on with his life. But it also says that she could stay in the marriage with one foot and still look, so could my husband.. She still cannot think of any answers to "what did I love about my husband". We were together for 30 years, how on earth can she not remember what she loved about me? Everyone who knows us thinks we have a very good life. I know its the outside looking in but still. We went on 4 or 5 trips a year, which my waw says "dont count". It's the daily stuff that was absent. ?? We spent a lot of time on our boat as a family. We worked out together at least once a week. We walked the dog together every Sunday morning. We have tons of friends that we often did things with. I just don't understand how she can have no loving emotions towards me.

The other night she sent me a text. "If we both wanted to work on our marriage, to give it one final try, where would we even begin? Thats a big part of the problem, the how. It feels impossible doesnt it?" I responded "It's not impossible but it will take a full commitment from both of us. Let me know if you ever get to that point." No response after that...

She fully blames me for her affair. If I had been more attentive then she would not have done this. What a bunch of bs. Our marriage had problems and I contributed to those problems. But I was always willing to do whatever it took to make our relationship better.

It looks like my efforts to detach and GAL are starting to have a tiny effect. I am heading out of town for 5 days and I am determined not to contact her. If she contacts me then I will respond with upbeat and brief answers. My feelings are shifting as well though. I have been taking stock of everything that she has done and said and I wonder how on earth will I ever be able to trust her again. I have been going out with friends and getting attention from other women which is helping me to realize that life without my waw might not be the hell that I am fearing. I took my kids out to dinner last night while waw went out on her own. Don't get me wrong, the idea of splitting our family and moving on without her are still very painful but I am wondering if maybe the fear of losing her is worse than actually losing her?

[Onguard]

I have been gone for 5 days and the only contact I had was to let her know what flight I was on today. When I got home we just said hello and not much more. My 20 year old son was with her all day Sunday and all day today. He told me that my efforts to stop pursuing her are paying off. He told me that she is noticing that I am acting very different and that I am moving on with my life. But it sure doesn't look like it to me. She is acting completely indifferent towards me and shows no signs of weakness.

I think my waw is just staying in limbo until either her AP comes back or she finds a new AP. I really want to save my M but each day that goes by it seems like we grow farther apart. I was hoping to see some glimmer of love from her after nc for 5 days but nothing. She was ice cold and showed zero interest. I am working on GAL. I have stopped pursuing her. I don't tell her I love her. Basically, I am trying to follow the 180 to the letter. It just doesnt feel like its working. I know I need to be patient but its so hard when there is OM in the picture, potentially. Each day feels like a ticking time bomb.

What other options do I have? If I want to save my M then I need to let go of my urge to control her. I need to focus on becoming a H only a fool would leave. If that's not enough then there is not much more I can do..

[Train]

Baby steps, OG. Babyyyyyyy steps. This is a *marathon*. Not a sprint.

She is now leaning towards marriage counseling. She asks why her feelings toward me are returning and she wrote down: He is not making me angry on a daily basis. He is not badgering me. He is moving on with his life.
Pay attention to this. She's telling you (okay, okay, her *journal*, but still ...) what she's finding attractive about the new OG. Those are the things that are making her THINK about staying in your M. So keep.doing.them. That simple.

But it also says that she could stay in the marriage with one foot and still look, so could my husband.. She still cannot think of any answers to "what did I love about my husband". We were together for 30 years, how on earth can she not remember what she loved about me?
Rewriting of marital history ... AND her opinion is clouded because there was apparently a duration of time when you weren't meeting her needs and/or being the man with whom she fell in love. Just be HIM again.

I have been gone for 5 days and the only contact I had was to let her know what flight I was on today. When I got home we just said hello and not much more.
Don't put too much stock in this.

I'm a woman. And if I had cheated and felt entitled to have cheated because my H wasn't meeting my needs - and if I wanted my H to believe my cheating was all because of HIM because I'm feeling entitled and slighted - and if my H appeared to be moving on with his life and wasn't falling at my feet, begging me to stick around - I'd probably pout, too. OTOH, if I had cheated and my H pursued me constantly and begged and pleaded and called me every day he was out of town, I'd probably view him as pathetic. As a man, I think I'd rather my W pout because I'm being strong and resolute than look at me like I'm desperate and pathetic.

Don't get all sappy on us, OG. And don't be losing hope just because this thing isn't moving at the pace you wish it would.

I'm seeing some positives in your sitch. I think you see them, too. They might not be BIG changes. But look at the progress that's been made!

If I want to save my M then I need to let go of my urge to control her. I need to focus on becoming a H only a fool would leave.
Yep. You got it! And I think you're doing great!

[Onguard]

Thanks Train. I appreciate your words of encouragement. I will get through this. The hardest part is patience, the second hardest part is acting positive and happy. MWD comments about people trying to save a M in my situation are right on the mark. "It will be the hardest thing you have ever done in your life".

[Bysnfys]

Hi OP just wanted to wish u luck brother...i am almost in the same boat as u..had begged cried and pleaded toher...the only thing i havent done is left her alone or the 180 which is the only thing left for me. Try to be strong man, i know it aint, almost unbearable losing ur woman.
Good luck bro