1 step forward, 1000 steps back - part 2

[Wonka]

Starsky,

It is not that simple in today's tepid economy. Also I have seen right here when WASes have A's with their work colleagues and ended them while still working in that same workplace thereby restoring their marriages.

Ideally, we would prefer that MDU's H take concrete steps to move way from the OW. Even if that does happen, it will be a while to seek a job that is comparable to his job and pay scale. That process just doesn't happen overnight.

Even if this isn't an option, people have SUCCESSFULLY ended their affairs with their work colleagues and continue working together.

We just need to work with what is in front of us in MDU's sitch.

[Train]

I feel like H is trying to gain some power here (and obviously I'm letting him). I think the truth is he has felt very powerless in our M for many years. If I'm really honest with myself, I controlled quite a lot of things. If I think about it, my emotional outbursts have been a form of control. He's not tolerating it anymore, which in a way is good. But it's almost like he's swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I really think that's why he does not want to give in completely, he sees my requests as more demands/control over him and doesn't want that anymore. And obviously I'm letting him have the upper hand right now, I suppose out of my own fear and guilt.

This, to ME, is the greatest revelation you've had so far, mdu. I think you are DEAD ON here, and - as you know - I've personally felt this way for a while re: your situation.

[Wonka]

MDU,

I wanted to circle back to you about the IC. Here is what I want to leave with you as you think about what you want out of IC.

We are encouraging you here to review your own attitudes, beliefs, actions and feelings to root out all old resentments and fear.

[Starsky309]

Starsky, to your point about the power equilibrium being off. I feel and have thought a lot about that too. I feel like H is trying to gain some power here (and obviously I'm letting him). I think the truth is he has felt very powerless in our M for many years. If I'm really honest with myself, I controlled quite a lot of things. If I think about it, my emotional outbursts have been a form of control. He's not tolerating it anymore, which in a way is good. But it's almost like he's swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I really think that's why he does not want to give in completely, he sees my requests as more demands/control over him and doesn't want that anymore. And obviously I'm letting him have the upper hand right now, I suppose out of my own fear and guilt.

I'm talking about power, not control.

I've never seen a successful reconciliation yet where the power dynamic wasn't such that the formerly-wayward spouse believed that it was up to them to "earn their way back." They may or not EVER express true remorse verbally (many don't, sadly, and some of us need to hear that), but their ACTIONS are such that they are remorseful, and the POWER DYNAMIC is such that they are acting like it is UP TO THEM to clean up the mess.

Sometimes the betrayed spouse already had the upper-hand, power-wise, in the marriage and sometimes they didn't and had to learn it thru DBing and affair-busting, but they got that upper hand and maintained it during the early part of reconciling.

I believe the healthiest marriages are a "50/50" power dynamic, don't get me wrong. Maybe 55/45 or 60/40 in one direction or another, but anything more than that is unhealthy.

HOWEVER . . . after the damage of an affair. . . I do believe that TEMPORARILY, the betrayed spouse needs to assume more power, if they are to be able to articulate what they need to their formerly wayward spouse and if they are to be able to enforce their boundaries, etc. As my wife and I pieced, the relationship power returned to its 50/50 equilibrium slowly between 6 months and 2 years, but there was no mistaking during that time -- that while I forgave her EMOTIONALLY and SPIRITUALLY, there were still things I needed and we were very clear with each other on that.

I'm just not seeing that from you and your husband. Wonka's belief may be different, or it may even be just a "not yet you don't" (see it), but I hope that explains where I'm coming from with my advice.

Starsky

[Starsky309]

I feel like H is trying to gain some power here (and obviously I'm letting him). I think the truth is he has felt very powerless in our M for many years. If I'm really honest with myself, I controlled quite a lot of things. If I think about it, my emotional outbursts have been a form of control. He's not tolerating it anymore, which in a way is good. But it's almost like he's swinging the pendulum too far the other way. I really think that's why he does not want to give in completely, he sees my requests as more demands/control over him and doesn't want that anymore. And obviously I'm letting him have the upper hand right now, I suppose out of my own fear and guilt.

This, to ME, is the greatest revelation you've had so far, mdu. I think you are DEAD ON here, and - as you know - I've personally felt this way for a while re: your situation.

Yeah, I agree -- that's good stuff. Taking my previous post into account (if you even agree with it -- if you don't, that's okay too), you're going to have to find SOME way, mdu, to both allow your H to have a "voice" thru this process while still not relinquishing too much relationship power to him at this raw stage.

Challenging, but it can be done.

[Train]

Ok, I'm just gonna throw this out there:

To me? An approach in mdu's situation is kind of simple.

The days when your PMA was the highest, mdu, was when you were focused on yourself and re-discovering yourself in this "new normal." You were limiting contact with your H and letting him, for the most part, initiate contact unless/until something came up with the kids (which - and here's the good news - is often in your case).

Your outlook seemed sooo much better, and you were better able to communicate with your H. Things were progressing. I happen to believe your H was responding positively to this new-and-improved mdu who wasn't trying to control, who wasn't lashing out and who was starting to take care of herself and have some confidence that she would be fine NO MATTER WHAT.

Can you - one day at a time - take steps to get back there, mdu? Again, a good place to start is taking a break this weekend to recover from last night's blow-out.

There will be plenty of opportunities for you to put your fear and anxieties aside in front of your H; fake it 'til you make it. Again.

Your H, IMO, needs to see two things in order for you guys to reach the optimum "power dynamic" Starsky is talking about in your relationship:

1. The mdu who lets him lead and gives him a little say; the mdu who gives him uninterrupted time to work this out on his own. (This gives HIM power.)
2. The mdu who appears to LOVINGLY but FIRMLY be prepared to move on without him. (This gives YOU power.)

It's honestly the simplest, most straight-forward formula to use. It's also, FWIW, the one I used.

No pursuit, no pressure, no talks about your relationship, no mentioning OW. I'll repeat: NO MENTIONING OW. She's a NOBODY. NOTHING. In your mind, mdu, she does not EXIST. That's how it has to be. Or at least who YOU have to be in front of your H.

When you give the appearance that you're willing to move on with or without H, what does that look like?

To me, it looks like a few weeks ago when you were dressing nicely, wearing new fragrances, reading books, running, gardening, meeting with friends. That's ATTRACTIVE to your H. He was responding to that. You can use the times when you see your H to be flirty and light and breezy, as Wonka would say. We know your H responds to this. So DO IT, absolutely. But don't pursue. Don't initiate. Be that flirty, fun girl when he sees you!

But you just carry on with your life and about your business, acting as if OW is not a concern to you.

That's my .05 (adjusted for inflation) on how to get the pendulum back to the middle.

The fact, as we know it, is that OW is starting work in H's building Monday. I agree it'd be best if your H would take concrete steps to eliminate contact with OW. But *even IF he was ready to commit to that* it's not going to happen overnight, as Wonka says. Even if he finds a new job, we are looking at the simple fact that H and OW will be working together, in the same office, come Monday.

So let's work with what we've got. I, for one, believe OW being in the office - at this point - is kind of irrelevant. I think the aforementioned plan, considering H has cooled off a little and is distancing (either bc of OW ... or because of mdu's outbursts ... or a combination of BOTH), is the only way to go from here.

But that's just me.

[mdu]

"you're going to have to find SOME way, mdu, to both allow your H to have a "voice" thru this process while still not relinquishing too much relationship power to him at this raw stage."

I agree. But really don't know how to do this tactically. It actually makes me think that maybe I should have been more collaborative last night? Communicate in some way "Hey, let's work this out together" rather than "I'm going to interrogate you and you BETTER give me the right answers!" That wasn't at all my intent going into it but somehow that's the way I think it may have came off.

I called H this morning and told him that I was sorry for being pushy last night and I know that's not helpful. His tone really warmed to that and he said 'thank you'. I hope that was the right thing to do, I was motivated because he has said that when I apologize it helps.

And I'll leave it at that, certainly for the rest of the day. I'm headed out to a concert a couple of hours away with some friends in a couple hours. Tomorrow am H and I will have to see each other to exchange kids, I'll keep it light for sure.

Next week is on my mind a lot, of course. I keep thinking I'm 100% screwed. His feelings are going to get all kicked up and I will have no chance. I truly do not know what to do. When he was/is consumed with her he won't LET me in, even if I'm doing all the right things. He doesn't do two well, which is probably good because it's a clear sign where his head is at. But with this latest challenge I think may work against me.

[Starsky309]

It actually makes me think that maybe I should have been more collaborative last night? Communicate in some way "Hey, let's work this out together" rather than "I'm going to interrogate you and you BETTER give me the right answers!" That wasn't at all my intent going into it . . .

Yes, that was EXACTLY what you were advised here, just yesterday afternoon (I wanna say it was by Wonka -- I'd have to look). This really shouldn't have caught you by surprise, mdu.

Look, I know I'm being hard on you, but you simply can't afford to keep making the same mistakes, over and over -- especially when it comes to what is probably your husband's #1 core issue (your emotional reactivity). You've GOT to start applying the advice more consistently. Doing it AWKWARDLY is to be expected (as it won't be natural to you); not DOING IT AT ALL simply isn't an option.


Starsky

[mdu]

Thanks, Train.

I think you're really on track (no pun intended ;)) with your proposed plan. Knowing my H and yes, what we've observed that works. I'd put my money on your for sure!

Having said that, the one thing I'm hesitating on is how the heck I'm going to suddenly pull off "OW is nothing to me" when clearly, he knows darn well from our convo last night she is VERY much on my mind and an issue to me. I mean won't that seem so incredibly disingenuous? I mean how do I now back off from having already declared absolutely no contact with OW? kwim?

Is it the old "I've had an awakening! And suddenly I haven't a care in the world and OW doesn't remotely cross my mind." How do I pull this off?

[mdu]

I'm ok with you being hard on me. I appreciate it.