Wow, that sounds exactly like my W. She's actually said some of those same things. I look forward to advice from the vets, especially the friendship before R part
My heart is heavy for you and Mrs. Dev. That had to be very hard for both of you. Clearly she is very conflicted and struggling. As long as the OM is in the picture, there isn't any chance to even contemplate on reconciling.
I think there were several important takeaways from this discussion. Mainly that the W is unable to break away from the OM and possibly refusing to do so. I find it interesting that W perceives this inability as being the right choice. That is very, very flawed thinking on her part. It is all based on warped emotions.
-my W hasn't seen how anything would be different over the last 6 months to make her change her mind. She is scared things would be the same.
I am curious. Has W noticed and/or commented on any of the 180's you've done? I would hope you've made changes to your own patterns, issues, and habits that are not conductive to a healthy M.
-my W thinks that we need to have a friendship before any talk of a R, and this is where I get stuck, because I have stated we will not be friends if there is an OM involved. I reiterated this again, after she questioned me.
It is clear that she's wanting to hold on you as a part of her cake-eating binge. Not good. I am glad that you reiterated that you will not be a part of a third party marriage. Good job! -my W was under the impression that she would move right back in if we R, and I reiterated that that was not an option, she would keep her own place and we would have to start over, dating etc.
Nicely done!
-we agreed to meet more frequently and get the S details sorted out. Finances and custody. W is now aware that she needs the kids to have financial stability, so her attitude has changed. She told me this. She wants them more. I told her I'm concerned about their health and hers.
Why is this a concern for you if W wants to have the kids more often? Is there something here that we're missing here?
-the main stumbling block is how awful she feels around me. She feels terrible about herself around me, and her despair, anxiety, and suicidal thoughts develop. She feels we bring out the worst in each other. She doesn't want to be irritable and angry
It is all on her. As you probably know, it is just a matter of perspective and perception. She is involved with the OM right now so her views are very skewed right now.
I hope you've heard some of her main complaints about you and made some 180s that you can live with permanently. For if there's ever a divorce, you'll be a better man and partner for someone else. Preferably for W, right.
-she stated she loves her kids, but wishes she never had them
This says it all right there. W is really messed up in her head.
Going forward, the S will allow her more space, financial implications will occur, and then I guess we will see what happens. I'd like to delay if possible. But she needs space.
Yep. It is a part of the process.
What I highly suggest for you to do going forward starting now, is to do the following:
-get a L to represent you pronto -have your L communicate with W and ask if she has any legal representation -have all financial, separation, legal discussions handled through L -do not meet with W over separation or any other legal matters -GO PITCH BLACK DARK with zero communications with W -only email/text W about logistics with children (school, dr. visits, etc. -if W attempts to reach out to talk about you stuff that are not related to kids, then don't respond and direct all legal matters to L and instruct him/her to inform W that she is not to speak or discuss legal matters with you
If W gets angry, simply ask her "Are you still with the OM? You remember the boundary about not being friends as long as you are still involved with OM."
Stick to your guns on this one. I know that all of this look scary and may think that it will fail. Nope. I believe it will have the necessary effect on W to jolt her into realization that she has a stark choice in front of her:
Continuing with the OM or lose her H & family.
I am sure other posters will chime in with their experiences and thoughts.
I asked my W today if she planned on paying back the money she took from the kids education funds. She looked at me with defiance, and said yes, but it was kind of unfair that she had to pay for her own expenses since January (all her expenses were covered, that money was used and is used to fund her A activities)
I am going to ask Starsky to swing by here and detail how he handled that particular problem with the fetching Mrs. Starsky when she had her A with the XOM. Very enlightening!
-my W was under the impression that she would move right back in if we R, and I reiterated that that was not an option, she would keep her own place and we would have to start over, dating etc.
Nicely done!
Wonka, how does this part work while ensuring OM is not in the picture? Ideally should W agree to full transparency while living apart? I suppose if W gave the 'I'll do whatever it takes speech' you'd have a little more trust in her actions, but when W mentioned this to me, my first thought went to her having OM over to her place. Of course in my case W and I are not working on R.
With respect to your comments, she has noticed the 180s for sure, I'm much more involved with the kids activities, I have quit some activities, and my relationship with the kids has never been better. I have also learned to not argue feelings, and have realized I used to try to control situations to minimize hurt to myself. She has noticed the difference, but because she has the feelings of despair and anxiety around me, she is very cautious. As a side note, she told me she has no interest in "crawling into bed" with me, to which I concurred. She feels the decision is obvious based on her inability to get rid of the OM. It drives me nuts, because I have tried to protect myself with respect to the OM. Maybe I should have acted as if I didn't care, but to me, to not stand up for myself after the OM was discovered would have been even worse.
I will begin to implement the plans, and I meet with my L next week. And perhaps my main goal now is to continue with 180s. Of course, with no communication, it's going to be hard to show her my changes, ah yes, the age old dilemma of the Last LRT'er
Thanks again for all the support. I'll post again once work is done.
Also realized I forgot to address the issue with her health and the kids health.
My W has told me repeatedly that she "loses her mind " when she has the kids on her own, and I worry about what may happen if they are alone for extended periods of time. In fact, the majority of our tension happens around her scheduling with the OM I.e trying to get her time away and then feeling guilty (mind reading sorry). And when she has the kids on her own, without the nanny and she is overwhelmed and then turns on me irritated and furious.
She often lashes out at the kids verbally. I have all my text conversations on file. The only reason she wants increased custody is for the money. If they are with me, she would have to pay me support, and she can't afford to. They need their mom, and they need their mom to want to be with them.
I'm sorry the conversation had some low points for you. What a blow that must feel like!
But I don't think this is a death-sentence for your M at all.
In fact, I second Wonka's suggestion to move forward firmly and with resolve. Your W asked for something. Give it to her. But this is the beginning of you really putting your money where your mouth is on those boundaries.
I think your wife has some demons that she needs to work through on her own.
Back out, and let go in love.
As HS repeatedly told me, let the OP be there to meet alllllllll your W's needs. Let's see how long he remains her BFF when she turns her frustrations and lashings-out on HIM because ol' Dev got wise and went underground. With your W's current state of mind, she HAS to lash out at someone. Question, though: are you at all concerned that, in her current mindset and especially after the things she's said about your kids, she'd start lashing out at THEM if you weren't there to absorb it?
Definitely know - though it doesn't help - that this is not the woman you married. And she's telling you (though she likely doesn't realize it) that she's really, really messed up in the head right now. Typical WAS. But your W is actually being very vocal about it instead of completely shutting down toward you.
I think she is very confused and torn. She's essentially telling you that.
Now is the time for that crazy, hardcore, counterintuitive stuff. It's not going to feel "right" - and certainly not easy - but giving her the space she's asked for is going to be best for both of you right now. And it will give her time to think while not having ANY reason to continue to direct her anger toward you.
Have you read "His Needs Her Needs"? HS suggested it to me, and it has been invaluable. One thing (if I remember correctly) it mentions is that going dark allows you to step back after you've given your W some warm memories of you. If she has noticed your 180s and your new-found patience, leave her with that memory for a while. By staying in her life and being her whipping post - and perhaps your reacting to that in a way that isn't pleasing to her - you continue taking a chance on making withdrawals from her "Love Bank." Going dark, in other words, leaves her with a good, positive picture of you. Your "account" in her Love Bank will hold steady while you're dark.
Proudly coining myself a member of Dev's Posse tonight.
You impress me every day, Dev. Stand tall.
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
Just musing as I'm working with my patients here, I'm pretty sure my W will accuse me of being controlling and manipulative with respect to my boundary, of no friendship if she is involved with the OM. Any tips on how to discuss this if it comes up? Or maybe just not discuss until the OM is gone? In her mind the OM is a non-factor. She even stated that to blame the OM puts too much weight on that R. By saying I didn't care about the OM, and I saw and recognized the issues we had prior to the A, I tried to show her I realize the OM is a symptom of a R that had lost it's way.
She doesn't feel she's having an affair because we are seperated right now. That justifies it in her mind. But I also know she is sick about other people referring to her A, she is very embarrassed, and hates the fact this is happening.
Anyways, I'm rambling. Sorry for the multiple posts everyone. Long day today.
She told me it's a nothing relationship, but he is now her best friend.
If she's being honest here, then that's a good thing. It means the A is starting to feel the strain of the sitch. It's going down in flames soon. She will have a hard time of it when it does. But don't expect her to come running back to you when it's over with OM. She'll still have a ton of guilt and feelings of loss of the A. It's natural.
Yes, the best thing you can do is not talk to her about your R until the OM is completely out of the picture forever. If she starts to talk about the R then ask her if the OM is out of the picture and the A is over. If it isn't then just tell her well then there's nothing to talk about and walk away. This is advice from Sandi. It worked with me. But still my W is not running back into my arms. She's still conflicted. Still angry at me. And stuck with that anger and fine with being stuck. She says it's part of the process. I just give her time.
Even going dark is good for your sitch right now. I agree with Wonka. You said it all in your letter. Now you just have to stick to your word. Keep strong my friend.
M: 59 W: 53 M: 9 yrs T: 14 yrs No kids together but D30(hers), S27, S24, D21(all 3 mine) W moved out 11/18/2013 D-Day 12/14/2013 W moved back home 12/1/2014
Appreciate all of your input so much. I'm honoured your all part of the Dev Posse. Thanks for your kind words Train. I feel the support from everyone and I needed it today. I feel so lucky to have everyone on the boards who contributes, and even those that just read.
Going to settle down, process, regroup, and implement. That's my plan.
