Maybell: Chapter Four

[Maybell]

Thread is about to lock.

Maybell Chapter Three is at:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2466200#Post2466200

So here's a question... What can you all remember about your relationships that is good, that you really really value, that is special to the spouse for whom you're standing? Is there one thing, or is it the fact of marriage and shared history itself that you stand for? Is it hope that the relationship could be something special and precious, rebuilt properly?

I have friends and family members in strong marriages. They have their weak spots but they also spend fun time together, plan trips and they future together, have joint goals for which they work -- together... You see where I'm going with this?

What am I standing for? When I would do research on homemaking or parenting, and try to implement it, H would criticize for not trusting my own judgment more rather than appreciate that I was working to do better in my role. If i so much as wanted help making meal plans, he would get frustrated and tell me to just plan as I went. If I wanted to plan a trip he would tell me to wait till the kids were older/we had more money/the moon was blue, whatever. We NEVER made plans for the future. If I wanted to talk about what we wanted in five or ten years time he would get grumpy and shut me down. In the evenings he would play his games and watch his shows and never even be concerned if I had a show I wanted to watch or whatever. If I snapped and ASKED to watch a show then he would go piddle on the computer till it was over because it wasn't something HE wanted to watch.

Life without him is so much more relaxed. I can cook a meal without him complaining the stove isn't the temperature he thinks it should be, that the lid is on when it should be off or the other way around.

I can not think of one single thing in my life that his presence would improve.

Is that normal???

[pilot]

Is this all true? Or are you beginning to rewrite your M history in the same fashion a WAS would?

Not criticizing you, I just get the sense your post comes from an emotional moment you are having. Not to say everything you typed is not true, but there MUST be something about him which falls into you line of questioning for you to have stayed married to him for so long.

[artsy]

My current H is useless.

My old H was very sweet and thoughtful. We got along fantastic, had the same values and laughed a lot. We had a great chemistry. We took the funnest trips ever! (He has brought them up recently- even mentioned talking about them with other people). We just loved being around each other.

THAT is why I'm standing.

This current guy is gross.

So, yes, I think what you're feeling is perfectly normal!

[Maybell]

Pilot, I don't know. Maybe. I started to be a WAS six years ago, but couldn't leave because I had a newborn and two toddlers. I found a way to pull myself together to stay and work on the marriage but most of what I wrote IS true -- especially the cooking and the long term planning.

There were periods of time when we pulled together but they were accidental and not well-sustained. I tried to keep up my end.

[claire7]

Maybell I think about this so much. Just this morning in fact!! (So, yes, I'll say it is a normal feeling, because I want to be normal! Ha)

I know I don't want my current H back. And I don't want our old R back. I know I am working hard to improve myself AND seeing changes. I know I will be ok if we end up getting a D.

Those are things I know for sure.

Could my M be rebuilt? Dunno. Can my H change enough to meet MY needs (you know, all the ones that were unfulfilled that led me to disconnect from him...)? Dunno. Can we improve our communication enough so that we could bring out the best in each other and rebuild the good parts of what we had before? Dunno. Probably. Possibly.

That's why I'm sticking around at the moment. Not shutting the door, but not letting the rest of my life hinge upon it either...

[Maybell]

Claire, you're probably right. One more reason I need to find a job ASAP. To have more life of my own that doesn't hinge on him.

Thank you all...

[Meghan]

Maybell,

I ask myself this a lot, too, and it's asked of me pretty regularly by friends and family. It's totally normal, and there are bound to be days when all you can see are the issues without a single good thing in sight.

It's interesting that you mention thinking of the future. One thing that's become pretty clear to me recently is that H. and I didn't really have any shared future goals we were working towards, or even any real direction we were heading in (possibly together or individually). We didn't have many of the same arguments as you, and I feel like my H. was a good deal more supportive, but we still just had this stagnant little life.

In terms of what I'm standing for, we had the same values, same interests, same sense of humor, and I do genuinely think we wanted what was best for the other person even if we were really screwed up in how we tried to deliver. Back in the day we had a really good physical relationship, too. But clearly there were a lot of things that weren't working.

As Claire said, I don't want my current H. or R. back so much as I want to create new ones. And I'm still here because I think there's room to build on the good things that we have together and to do so in a way that we have a stronger relationship and that we're better individuals because of it. Of course, this is a tall order and is pretty dependent at this point on H. having enough of a chink in his resentment of me that we can find a place to start. So for now, I'm trying to calm down and work on myself to be the kind of person that I want to be just in general and also within the relationship. It's still hard, but it's necessary.

[Ggrass]

^^^^^ I think I agree with just all of you.

I do not want the old r back. The new version of h, is the old one of last year, he cannot accept the r has changed. Yet he has an ow?

He seems to be in his head stuck in the r, but unable to be in it due to ow.
The whole stitch just feels better without him around, less stress, far less drama. H could make major drama over nothing. He still wants control, but I'm revolting? He says.

I'm far happier without his form of manipulation, control and verbal abuse.

[Eatsma]

Maybell -

I think it's good that you're asking yourself those questions!! I ALSO think that it's possible that you're re-writing history in a moment of feeling discouraged. Give yourself some time to think about it and journal. Step back and look at that carefully. What was it like in the early days of your relationship?

I can identify with a lot of this. My H also is a big gamer and watches TV, but not so much what I would like to watch. (I used to like the show Glee, and he would never watch it with me. Imagine my head exploding when he told me that he was just "hanging out" with OW in her hotel room watching Glee, "as friends.") I was never a gamer really, but H and our son convinced me last night to play one of their games with them. They were both really excited that I agreed to play. It was kind of cute (and overwhelming...and not really my thing, but I'm okay giving it a go...)

On my side of things...my H hates running, something I love to do. BUT, he took it up a few years ago. He jokes that he does it because he has to "keep his wife from running away from him." Anyway - I see it as a concession that he's trying to do something that I love and be involved.

Anyway - good luck...I think asking yourself these questions and evaluating these things are important parts of the process!

In one of my books there's a good chart one can fill out about their spouse to help them evaluate the decision "Should I stay or should I go." It might be in The Secret to Surviving Infidelity....I'll see if I can track it down.

[Maybell]

I have played video games with H, but his big thing is that he wants to do everything alone. Even when we were happy together if I played with him he would want to just power through everything and direct it all. There was not much that was cooperative about playing together.

The one truly happy time I remember in our marriage was a period when we had bought a fixer-upper house and we got it into shape. We worked together on the house, we enjoyed exploring the area together, we had friends and planned vacations. It was the only time we weren't distracted by his travel schedule, kids, extended family... And it only lasted 2-3 years.

We were happy together other times but never so beautifully in sync. I'm coming to realize that I thought I'd married a guy who is really resourceful and confident but now I'm seeing him much more easily defeated, and that he had the confidence of the fortunate, not a true inner sense of ability. He seems to expect that he can reach for something and it will be his but the truth is that he's reaching for harder things and they aren't coming to him as effortlessly as when we were younger.

I suppose that might be part of his journey now... But I don't see why he had to chuck one of his resources (me) to take this journey. On the other hand, I suppose I'm the person who makes it clear to him where he is in his life. I'd probably want to shoot the messenger too.

I woke up this morning weepy, and with a strong desire to cancel tomorrow's lunch. I think, thanks to you all, I'm back to feeling resigned and releasing my expectations. Thank you all..

[Eatsma]

Maybell -

Have you read much about MLC? Jim Conway's book Men In Midlife Crisis describes very much what you've just described. It's a little bit bible-centric (Conway is a minister) but I still think accessible to those who are not religious.

Just curious.

[Maybell]

I go back & forth on MLC. I haven't read the Conway book. I read a lot of The Midlife Wives Club and H started a midlife book around the time of BD but said it wasn't resonating for him. From the first moment of BD I thought he was MLC but he's been so mellow (except Mothers Day which was AWFUL) that I wasn't sure, and wasn't sure it mattered.

[Eatsma]

Does it matter? I'm really hanging on to it a bit because it seems to make sense of the crazy FOR ME. That said, it also gives me real hope that this is truly temporary and a phase--much like a child's phase.

Just a thought!

[Meghan]

Oh, Maybell, you've very eloquently put into words some of what I've been seeing with my H., too.

I get the shoot the messenger thing. I was also wondering if you felt like perhaps you had tried to fix or accommodate for the feelings of defeat or lack of confidence?

These are hard realisations to have, but I hope they help you to make a bit more sense out of the situation.

[Maybell]

Meghan, I hadn't noticed the feelings of defeat till everything blew up and I was in no fit state at that point to do much, or for him to receive much from me.

However, our entire marriage has been one long statement of my confidence in him. I've allowed myself to be carted all over the country in pursuit of his career goals. I've told him how impressed I've been with his many achievements. I ran our household and let myself be backburnered while he pursued an MBA -- and not only pursued the MBA but class officer and highest gpa in the program. That included going into labor with our second child alone while he studied in the next room (he was in the delivery room for the last couple hours but left the next morning to go to class).

If he's feeling a crisis of confidence now, that's on him. There is nothing more at all that I could do to make him feel differently. I've been his biggest cheerleader for eighteen years.

[Maybell]

^^^^
That sounded kind of bitter.

I HAVE been his biggest cheerleader for 18 years. I have done everything I knew how to do to let him know how thoroughly I believe in him.

Apparently either I wasn't reaching him, or what he's looking for isn't from me. (I think the second one is more true, though perhaps truth in both statements.)

Either way, the message I want MEGHAN to hear is that I'm not responsible for his self-confidence, except to the extent that I can validate him when he shares with me. Beyond that, that's his growing to do.

[Meghan]

Thanks, Maybell - message received!

It's hard, as you said earlier, not to feel frustrated and cast aside when all you've tried to do is be a resource for the person. I've been playing this role for a long time (although not as long as you), and it's a challenge to get out of the habit, but the only one who can take him through this journey and figure this stuff out is him.

That sounds like an awful lot of sacrifice and support on your part over the years. I think I sacrificed quite a bit too, although my support has taken the form of enabling rather than cheerleading (although there was some of that too when he's applied for jobs or tried his hand at writing). But at this point, he needs to sort out where he's at, how he got here, and what he wants to do about it on his own.

[labug]

I think you're asking all the right questions, Maybell. Sit with it all, the answers will come but it takes patience.

It seems that right now you're in a "I want answers!" phase.

When I got to those places, I'd ask myself, "What would I be doing differently if we were Dd? What would that change?"

I would still be the mom, I would still be taking care of my house, I would be buying groceries, going to work, seeing friends, hobbies, meetings, trips. I certainly wasn't ready for a new R.

I just took him out of my personal equation.

So I lived my life, left H to his walkabout and I thrived.

I found me.

Slow down, let the answers come.

[Eatsma]

Labug,

That was just what I needed today, thank you.

[Maybell]

Well, lunch today. Just ended.

There wasn't much purpose to it. Apparently he just wanted us to have a conversation since we haven't really had one since the beginning of June. I'm not holding my breath for another one, but it was pleasant enough that he probably will ask again in September or so, if I stay dim.

He wants to buy my youngest brother a wedding gift, which I thought was nice. I just told him where they're registered and didn't give him any more information.

Also he made a point of telling me he "wasn't seeing OW anymore" that he'd ended it a few weeks ago because it was distracting, a bad idea, and wasn't going anywhere.

Then he made a point of saying that it didn't change anything, he still wanted time to himself. He asked if I was still seeing our C. I said yes, that he was really helpful. I asked him if he was going to start seeing him and he said he wasn't ready yet, he still needed time to himself. But he wasn't closing the door to the idea. I just said OK.

I'm all over the place here. On the one hand I want us to heal everything and get on track ASAP. No discussion of divorce. No hint that he is still open to reconciling (not that I expected one... just anticipating the question). I was worried he'd ask what the lawyer was up to, but he didn't mention her. On the other hand, the bitterness I feel about all the ways in which I was neglected in the last ten years is startling to me and I don't know what to do with that. Clearly that will need to be dealt with before I can think of reconciling myself.

We did have a decent casual conversation about what books and television we've been engaged with. He's going back to reading the authors that were his favorites pre-A. Probably 2/3s of the conversation was about the kids and parenting issues. He asked a bunch of questions about how to handle things and I just kept saying "you're in charge when you have them, you can figure that out."

I haven't made a total priority of validating him because... I don't know. My eye is more on myself than on DBing, I guess, I don't want to do all this work towards getting him back before I know that's a good thing to have. So telling him repeatedly he could make parenting decisions without me was almost as much validation as I had in me. (as in, every time he asked how he should do x, I said, he was the parent, he could make those decisions without me. this happened repeatedly.)

Bug, I have mostly been working to just live my life without him. I have a nice week planned with friends, and as soon as I finish here I'm going to go research how to rent a kayak in my area, and I plan on spending one day, at least, on the water. I will look around for other things to do too but I have a lot of projects planned for my at home time as well as outings with friends so I don't want to overbook myself.

I am kind of glad he broke things off with OW on his own and isn't ready to come home yet. I would have felt TOTALLY like Plan B if he had dumped her and come straight home to me. Slow and steady is better, for sure, for both of us. But S6 this morning said this morning that he thought H got his own place so he could play video games he didn't want the kids to see and it kind of broke my heart. I fell on my sword and said again, "No, Dad just doesn't want to live with me anymore," and when S6 said "But why??? You're the best mom ever!" I just said "Thank you, you're the best S6 ever!" and left it there.

S8 is the only kid who hasn't yet hypothesized why H moved out. I'm worried about him.

Closed the afternoon with another stiff one-armed hug which I hate but is better than no hug, and now here I am.

[Maybell]

Ok, a little bit of processing.

- I was thinking after I wrote all that whether or not there was any spark left. My conclusion is, on my end there is a little bit of spark, but it's a quiet kind, and if it had a color the color would be of affection and long history rather than passionate attraction. For me, that's a lovely thing, to think about what his interests and likes are, the people we know in common, and to feel familiar with him. But it's buried under seven tons of hurt and fear. And it's not that there isn't passion there... it's just that what was enjoyable about spending lunch together was the opportunity to be quiet and to know one another, rather than to be all flirty. That was a nice warm feeling by itself.

- I'm being very careful to not try to guess what he's feeling for me. However, I will observe without expectation that he was considerate, that he seems to want to make things better for me, expressed caring for my family, that he offered to help in several different things (job hunt, with kids, with my travel plans) and that he has expressed interest in what I'm doing. Since he hasn't said he wants more from our relationship at this time than what he's got, I'm not going to let any of those things mean anything.

- The only time I came close to tears with him was when I was telling him what S6 said about why he moved out. I handled it well at the time, but it really hurt to tell it to H. I didn't leave the table and I didn't actually cry but it took me a few minutes longer than I meant to regain my composure.

- I'm spending time this weekend with the wife of H's close friend from the MBA program. We are friends separately as well as as couples. When I told her he'd moved out last week I asked if she was still willing to be friends because I knew I was at risk of losing her in a split. She scolded me for questioning her loyalty, which was a nice reassurance. H told me I should feel free to tell her anything I wanted about our situation, knowing it was going to go straight to his good friend (he hasn't talked to his friend yet -- he's been keeping his distance from basically everyone he's close to). I thought that was pretty generous, that he wasn't asking me to bend over backwards to cover his a$$. I don't know what I'll say to her. It will be interesting to hear her perspective, they are one of the very few couples who has known us both well as a couple over the last eight years.

I don't really know what any of this means, but I'm going to put it out here a) for the record and b) in case any body wants to comment on what's going on for me and help me make decisions about how I conduct myself from here.

[Maybell]

And he just took the kids for the week and I didn't even get the stinky one-armed hug. Guess I get to fall apart for a little while before I go meet my friends for the fun activity planned for this evening.

Oh, and my D11 told me several times how great I looked when I had to drop by their camp right before lunch. That was nice to hear.

I mean, I think I get how this all *could* unfold. I just don't want to have to go through it.

[claire7]

Maybell! Wow! Don't have time to fully comment but wanted to say congrats on getting through lunch and having such great insight, and enjoy your time w/o kids (might as well enjoy since it is forced upon you, right?)

A couple of things that resonated for me: my D (3) really said, "you look beautiful Mama" while my H was there (!). I almost fell apart b/c I realized it has been a long time since I've heard that... and then have also been thinking, like you, about my own needs that were unmet for so long. I'll put more of my own thoughts about my sitch on my thread but just wanted to tell you that maybe we have reached a new (and important) stage: after looking Inward and making important positive changes in ourselves, maybe we have a clearer idea of what we were missing. And I'll speak for myself when I say that next time around I'll be so much more confident and assertive rather than feeling lucky just to have *someone* that I was willing to forgo things I really *need*. (Cuz that just doesn't work out well for anyone, as we have learned!!)

[Maybell]

Super frustrated that our communication skills aren't about a hundred times better. I've been beating myself up wondering if there was a purpose to his telling me he'd ended things with OW. If I knew how we function under our current circumstances I would have known what questions to ask, or how.

And his sister commented to me on FB today. She didn't even acknowledge when I wished her happy birthday. Sometimes the entire universe feels like a storm of messages all written to me in a foreign language.

I need somebody to slap me upside the head and remind me to get a grip.

[Meghan]

Fall apart all you want (I find I need a good falling apart moment every so often), but I hope you can enjoy your evening - you absolutely deserve it after today! Congrats on making it through lunch - I'm sure it was a challenge, but it sounds like you did great.

I think your observations about your spark is really revealing. There's a lot there that's worth trying to save, even if it's hard to find under all of the pain right now. Hopefully that will give you something to focus on when the going gets tough. It's so hard to observe things that could be good - even if you're not attaching expectations to them - and then to feel dashed when something like a hug doesn't happen.

One thing that friends have been asking me about is whether H. might be (unintentionally, they think) keeping me on edge because it gives him more power and control in a situation where he's clearly unhappy and not really feeling either of these things. Clearly I don't know your H. at all, but is it possible that the up and down of mixed messages - being thoughtful and then taking something away, for instance - is a way of keeping you a bit off balance?

Something that might be worth trying with H's friends wife is being somewhat vague and seeing what she puts out there. I've found it really helpful to see what kind of observations my friends make about H, me, and the relationship without me doing too much leading to start with. It's often been validating and helpful in ways that were a bit of a surprise to me.

[vossy]

I have to say, to ME, your lunch sounds incredibly positive. Sure, it might not be positive compared to how things were a year or two ago, but it sounds to me like you're on the right track.

I think it's a great sign he has ended his A on his own terms, but is still taking some time to look at what he wants. It shows he is not making rash decisions and is being insightful, I think. It seems to me (and this is only my two cents) that you are on a very "slowly but surely" track forward.

Or, maybe a better way to put it is this: you certainly aren't going backwards right now.

[Maybell]

Labug, Claire, Meghan, Vossy, thanks for your feedback. It is good to hear from people. I feel like I'm still processing everything.

I only cried a few tears tonight then I relaxed and enjoyed the quiet. I went out to a fun community event with the friend whose house we were at the evening I helped H with his couch. She said H had reached out to her husband to ask if they could hang out and get a beer sometime. Her husband (who was my friend first, he's kind of a semi-SAHD and she works full time) was reluctant to do that because he didn't want to upset me.

H KNOWS that these are my friends. He reached out the night we had such a good time (and friend not reaching back may be part of the reason H didn't come to their house for the 4th...) And H not taking responsibility for his need to have guy friends was one of the things I thought was causing him so much trouble -- this was a BIG bone of contention during our first MC go around.

I am not attaching any expectations for myself to these things, but I am pleased that he really is taking steps to acknowledge needs that he previously denied.

I'm at risk for having no time to work on my projects this week. I'm fully booked through Tuesday!! And then on and off for the rest of the week.

Thanks for giving me this space for my head to fly off. It really helps.

[claire7]

Ok, a little bit of processing.

- I was thinking after I wrote all that whether or not there was any spark left. My conclusion is, on my end there is a little bit of spark, but it's a quiet kind, and if it had a color the color would be of affection and long history rather than passionate attraction. For me, that's a lovely thing, to think about what his interests and likes are, the people we know in common, and to feel familiar with him. But it's buried under seven tons of hurt and fear. And it's not that there isn't passion there... it's just that what was enjoyable about spending lunch together was the opportunity to be quiet and to know one another, rather than to be all flirty. That was a nice warm feeling by itself.

- I'm being very careful to not try to guess what he's feeling for me. However, I will observe without expectation that he was considerate, that he seems to want to make things better for me, expressed caring for my family, that he offered to help in several different things (job hunt, with kids, with my travel plans) and that he has expressed interest in what I'm doing. Since he hasn't said he wants more from our relationship at this time than what he's got, I'm not going to let any of those things mean anything.

Hi Maybell,
I wish I had some great advice for you, but I think I just posted something very similar on my thread. These two parts above really stuck out to me. I guess it's worth feeling thankful that things aren't much much worse. (We have several colleagues on this board whose WAS are so antagonistic or hurtful. I've heard some real horror stories from friends, too. So, there's that. And that is a lot.

Beyond that, I don't have more to offer. For my own sake, I wish I did! I've been thinking about whether it's time for me to try some experiments to move beyond friendly neighbor/co-parent with my H. But I have no indication that he's ready for that, and I think it may be seen as pursuing and push him away.

Trying to stay patient.
Hang in there.

[Maybell]

The more strong, happy marriages I see the more I realize how far from that H and I have been. And how few examples of great marriages we had in front of us at the time we married.

Also I'm disturbed by something I permitted to happen to me this afternoon while I was out with my friends. Nothing awful, but I let a personal boundary get crossed and it's making me really uncomfortable. It makes me question my strength.

That last sentence was hard to write. I'm not articulating myself well. This isn't clear or accurate. That bothered me more than I realized. I need to think.

[Meghan]

I'm sorry that something bad happened to you this afternoon, Maybell - on top of everything else, that's a lot to deal with.

One thing to keep in mind is that your strength and willpower are likely to be really worn down right now because you're using them all the time to deal with your situation. You've had a whole lot going on recently and I imagine it's taken a lot out of you to manage. It's not that you're not strong or don't have boundaries around whatever happened, it's that you're incredibly strong but have used up a lot of your reserves leaving you with relatively little to deal with any other issues.

[labug]

Maybell, getting all these "opportunities for improvement" can be overwhelming, that's why in the past most of us just shoved them aside and buried our feelings.

You don't have to be perfect you just need to be you, slow down when that's called for, try not to overthink and just live.

Life is one continuous practice.

[claire7]

I'm sorry to hear you had a rough day. But please remember you are very strong! A setback does not mean you have to change your view of yourself... you can choose to see it as a learning and growth experience, too. Take it from a reforming perfectionist! Failure is how we learn and grow. As one of my mentors always says, "we are not here to *be* smart, we are here to get smarter"

And don't forget to have compassion for yourself!

Check out Dweck's "Mindset" for more about the difference between having a fixed mindset ("I messed up so I'm not strong anymore") vs a Growth mindset ("I messed up and I can learn and grow from that"). I find it jives really really well with MWD and DB.

[Maybell]

Thanks, everybody.

I stayed the night with my friends last night and was able to talk to my girlfriend about it this morning. She helped me put it in perspective. She agreed with me that it was good to see it as a strong reminder from God to mind my boundaries and my happiness and to not permit myself to be pushed around.

Again, it wasn't a big incident... I just found that it was troubling me and I needed to put it together for myself in the context of everything else that is going on for me.

Labug, I've been thinking about your "I want answers now!" comment and I would have denied you were right the day I saw it but I think now you might be. My friends were really distressed to hear how things are right now and wanted to be sure I'm prepared for the idea that I will be single. I would have thought that I had my head around that idea, but I think it's like detaching... it happens in bits. Seeing them, their happy but imperfect life together, their grown kids, the home that they've clearly built together and that they clearly enjoy together, hearing about their long-term plans... I had a very clear moment of understanding that there is no need to settle for anything other than a fantastic life.

Forward, march!

[Maybell]

Ok, I'm ready to change gears. Given that he told me OW is gone,

IF H starts moving towards reconciling, and
IF he does it in a way that will be really happy and healthy for us both and
IF I can move past my anger towards him, and
IF I can keep my plans for a fantastic life,

Then I think I would like to reconcile.

SO, how shall I behave towards him going forward?

Continue being dim but work to be warmer & friendlier?
Or what?

I hope I didn't do wrong... But the friends I was with have been paying attention to H on Instagram and both of us on FB and they figured out a lot of what was going on with us. So when they asked, I spilled the beans. This is the only connection H really cares about and respects (other than my family) to hear about his A. They were deeply unhappy to hear it confirmed. I told them I thought it was important that he hear from them lovingly but honestly, that I thought it was important that he have friends who were connected to his history.

I really appreciate the personal journey support I've gotten from everybody here... Could people start weighing in on how I should conduct myself around him as well? Help me process what I'm seeing and hearing from him, and how I should react to him given the conditions stated above?

Thank you all. Thank you a lot.

[Maybell]

Pretty much since the beginning of our marriage, H has been very stingy with sharing what was going on with him. This wasn't him being secretive or anything, he is just a really closed-off guy and said he didn't want to relive the day he had just gotten away from. It was always worse when he was in jobs where he wasn't totally happy. It wasn't the case when we were dating and first married because I worked at the same firm (different area) as him. But the more our lives diverged after I left that company the less he would tell me about what was going on with him.

I'm a pretty talkative person and he's really not, so if he asked I would share everything I had. It got so lop-sided that he was practically hearing about me in ten minute increments and I didn't even know the names of the people he had lunch with. This was a major source of contention for me.

It actually got a little better after BD. Now when he contacts me he asks about what I'm up to but doesn't share about himself. (He did share a piece of big news the day I helped with the couch and I milked it all I could, but there wasn't much to work with). Now he has started asking about me, what I'm doing, how my family is, etc., but I'm not engaging until it becomes more reciprocal.

It has been difficult for me to be warmer towards him because of all the anger I've felt about the last several years. Seeing 25's post to pilot about forgiving for our own well-being, I see that this is my next task. I haven't asked him about himself as a 180, since my complaining he wasn't sharing was one of our trouble points. I figure, he is aware that that's what I want, so I'll wait till he's ready to give it.

Am I on the right track or is there a better way?

[Maybell]

I also worry that because I have so much anger and hurt that I'm being too reserved and even rejecting towards him. I don't need to give away the farm but probably at least neutral would be better...

[labug]

We can't help you forgive yourself or him.

Forgiving ourselves is usually the most difficult and when we can't do that we sort of give our bag of rocks to the other person and continue the anger toward them.

We all screw up and we all need forgiveness.

What do you need to forgive yourself for?

[Maybell]

Grr... hearing about the end of OW knocked my detachment off kilter. I'm feeling impatient. I have all desk tasks today so not enough to absorb my attention.

Labug, I'm not sure where you're going with the forgiveness thing. I recognize that that's my next personal task. I was hoping to get some input on how I should interact with him going forward -- work to warm up to him and see if we can get the friendship back on some kind of not-awkward footing, or stay dim and see if he invites me out again?

I wish somebody KNEW him and could tell me what he wants so I could do it! IC asked why I couldn't just tell him straight out myself where I'm at (still wanting space myself to pursue remembering who I am but wanting more warmth in our relationship as it stands) and I had good reasons. Most had to do with how our relationship has functioned in the past, which obviously doesn't work, but I don't know how to alter the dance at this time. And I want HIM to chase ME. I want him to know that I'm ok with being chased. And he probably doesn't want to chase me right now but I think he also would like some warmth in the relationship too. I feel more ready to give it after IC this morning but the time seems to be not right (he's visiting his family right now, distracted with them and being the only parent available for a whole week for the first time ever).

GAH!!!!

[mdu]

When I was where you are I decided to experiment. And then found some pursuit really worked with H. I made sure to not go over board but I initiated a few calls just to chat and that really turned things. H quickly started pursuing me afterwards. I would go to experimenting and monitoring results. I think you have to do what works in your situation and it takes a little experimenting to figure that out.

[mdu]

P.S. My DBing coach advised me to do positive or neutral things, obviously nothing negative. Experimenting with pursuit could be a positive if it succeeds, and as long as you extract yourself quickly likely just neutral at worst if unsuccessful. You know your H so I'm sure will know quickly where it's headed and can change course if need be.

[Meghan]

I've said almost exactly the same thing that you did - I wish someone who knew him would tell me what to do. Trouble is, when the person you're dealing with right now doesn't seem to be the person you were dealing with previously in your marriage, it gets really difficult to figure out what they might respond to in a positive way. Toss in the pressure of feeling like you're trying to figure out the magic sequence of actions that will make things better and it's difficult to feel like you have any certainty in terms of what to do.

I'd second what mdu said - I think you need to experiment. You may need to get comfortable with putting yourself out there a bit more, but it sounds like your IC might be able to help with that. But keep in mind that you can always start really small to see how things go and expand from there. For instance, if you want him to know that you're comfortable being chased, is there a relatively neutral way you could, say, thank him for his last invitation? That way you've thanked him, you've gotten in touch but it's in reference to something he did, and it lets him know that you appreciated him chasing you.

[Maybell]

I sent him an email this morning saying "Just so you know, I still want my space for a while too. But I would like us to be friendlier and more comfortable with each other, if that works for you too. I don't want to be so awkward anymore."

That probably doesn't really call for much response, so I won't expect one. But hopefully we can start relaxing soon.

Thanks everybody.

[Maybell]

Wish I had said "My space is important to me too" rather than "I still want my space for a while."

Sigh. Today is strengthen the detachment day. The end of OW doesn't mean anything except that it's ok to be friendly. Nothing else has changed.

[claire7]

Should we make a pact to not send any non-business emails without getting feedback here first!? Haha.

Don't stress over it. What's done is done, right? And btw, something has changed:. you!

Hope your day is peaceful.

[labug]

About forgiveness, I was responding to this:

It has been difficult for me to be warmer towards him because of all the anger I've felt about the last several years. Seeing 25's post to pilot about forgiving for our own well-being, I see that this is my next task. I haven't asked him about himself as a 180, since my complaining he wasn't sharing was one of our trouble points. I figure, he is aware that that's what I want, so I'll wait till he's ready to give it.

Am I on the right track or is there a better way?

Sometimes we have to forgive ourselves before we can forgive others. That's the hard part.

I think the OW thing did knock the pins out from under you. Step back a bit and just let things happen, you'll find your equilibrium again.

[labug]

I don't think your email damaged anything but I'm not quite sure what you wanted to convey.

[Maybell]

He sent an email back confirming and elaborating that he invited me to lunch because he also wants things to be relaxed and friendlier. He said its hard it get there in five minute conversations.

I sent the email because I had told him in May that I wasn't going to be friendly while he was in contact with OW. Although he would ask about me, etc., I wasn't going to be vulnerable to him under those circumstances and I wasn't going to ask about himself. Now I'm willing to be friendlier, but I want him to understand that I still really need my space too. The work I'm doing to strengthen and unshackle myself is really important to me and I don't want to shortcut it, even for reconciliation. He doesn't know what work I'm doing but I wanted him to understand I'm not just being patient with his need for space, I actually have my own need for it at this time, independently. I didn't want him to misread increased warmth from me as my expecting us to get right back together.

Am I wrong, though, in being hopeful that reconciliation is still on the table?

[claire7]

I don't think it's wrong to be hopeful for that. Expecting it might be harmful to you, but hopeful can be healthy and inspiring.

It's a great positive sign that he wants your R to improve and is working towards that (even if full reconciliation is not an option yet). Right?

[Maybell]

He sent an email back confirming and elaborating that he invited me to lunch because he also wants things to be relaxed and friendlier. He said its hard it get there in five minute conversations.

I sent the email because I had told him in May that I wasn't going to be friendly while he was in contact with OW. Although he would ask about me, etc., I wasn't going to be vulnerable to him under those circumstances and I wasn't going to ask about himself. Now I'm willing to be friendlier, but I want him to understand that I still really need my space too. The work I'm doing to strengthen and unshackle myself is really important to me and I don't want to shortcut it, even for reconciliation. He doesn't know what work I'm doing but I wanted him to understand I'm not just being patient with his need for space, I actually have my own need for it at this time, independently. I didn't want him to misread increased warmth from me as my expecting us to get right back together.

Am I wrong, though, in being hopeful that reconciliation is still on the table?

[Maybell]

Sorry for the double post, something wacky happened with my phone.

You know, hearing it confirmed that I had let hearing about OW knock the pins out from under me, combined with hearing back from H, was really what I needed today. Also, Claire, your post about your sitch, reminded me how things can change just when we get used to the status quo. (I think it's a positive sign FOR YOU that you can assign some meaning to your H's behavior. It's helpful to have a rational explanation for something that feels so random.)

It's like that parable about the farmer and the horse. Maybe it's good news, maybe it's bad news. Who knows?

But now I feel like -- OK, new normal, I think I know how to conduct myself here. And I'm getting back to the plans I had made for myself before Friday's lunch.

So... next personal project. Learn to function happily in the face of uncertainty.

I think so many of the things I've been struggling with in the last couple of months have to do with my core sense of self and self-confidence.

[Maybell]

Jumbly journaling thoughts...

1. Claire's sitch today is really ringing in my head. Something about that is resonating with me and I'm trying to figure out what it is. I asked if she would tell her H that she loves him today if she had the chance. So I'm asking that of myself too.

Nope, I wouldn't. I DO love him. But for one thing I don't want to be that vulnerable to him. For another, we have a lot of garbage between us that needs to be cleared away before we can voice the sort of commitment that "I love you" implies.

Even more than that, though, I think what I really want is a kind of do-over. I want to give him a flirty, mysterious smile from across the room and have him not expect to get it. And I want to see it matter to him that I gave it and he didn't take it for granted. I want the chance to be the person I'm starting to free myself to be, easy in my own skin. I want to be with him without feeling responsible for him, and it's too soon for me to be that way with him.

2. That flirty smile thing is something I REALLY want. The "will he or won't he" first kiss. Saying good night at the front door rather than in the bed. I don't think this is about wanting to revisit my youth. I think it's about experiencing one another again with no expectations, so that if we ever do come together again as spouses that we're both starting with beginner's mind. If he always asks me out to dinner-and-a-movie I can change the dynamic up by finding more adventures to share. Life can be less dreary.

3. Speaking of less dreary... I've been looking to change up how my house is decorated and I've realized what an absolute rut I've been in for YEARS. We've lived in six houses in the last thirteen years and the pictures always get hung in the same collections, the furniture is always arranged under the same principles, things that go in the dining room always go in the dining room and never, for example, in a hallway. I could complete jumble up my entire decorating scheme and it would be an enormous 180 right there. Just the idea of it gets me all excited. Talk about your perfect illustration of how not all your changes should be about your spouse.

I have found myself in the last two hours thinking with excitement about what the next steps between me and H ought to be. I've ranged around from inviting him out for another lunch to asking him about the marriage and been all over the place. I think my goal for the next two weeks is going to be just practicing responding to him with a more relaxed demeanor when we have to interact for the kids. Beginner's mind: I want him to chase me harder this time around. I was way too enthusiastic the first time.

Afraid I'm setting myself up for more heartbreak, but hopeful I'm not...

[claire7]

This post was a wonderful gift to me today. That's such a a great move to redecorate the house! New surroundings can definitely help break thought and behavior patterns! Go for it!!

As for the chasr...my aunt has always said that you should marry a man who likes you just a little bit more than you like him. I didn't follow her advice, and actually often questioned his love (or like) for me. This describes my MIL's 2nd (successful) M. And at least one of our friend couples who seem happy.

As for setting yourself up for heartbreak... Don't go there yet. You don't want fear to drive you, right? Is the potential reward worth the risk?

I love what you said about experiencing all of that beginning relationship stuff as the "new, improved" you. Maybe someday I'll come to terms with all of this by realizing that *I'm* no longer the woman he married...and I need someone different.

Maybell, your presence here is a great gift to me. I am sad we are in this situation, but so thankful we found ourselves here at the same time.

[Maybell]

Claire, thank you. I rely on your wisdom a lot.

Labug, did you say that you and your H weren't able to start piecing till you could get more relaxed and expect less (nothing) from him? I'm going to go looking for your threads.

I've been taking all this free time while my kids are away today to think about who I Adam and what I want. The solitude has been a gift today. I started rereading my threads from the beginning and it's a relief to see how far I've come in on my two months. Really, really far. I'm going to be ok.

[Maybell]

I really want to reply to H's email but not quite sure what to say. I worry that he really wants being apart to be successful so he doesn't feel guilty about dumping me. Then I think, no, it's just wanting the friendship he claimed he valued so much but being wary of anything else (for cause). What I want is to put my money where my mouth is. Don't know how.

Also I'm concerned because he's with his family and when he said he wasn't happy they said, then you should tell her so and split up. No talk of working on the M, no investigating why he wasn't happy, no pointing out the insanity of the last 3-4 years and the toll that takes on a relationship, and no knowledge of the A. So I feel insecure that he's there.

Which probably means I should let it lie.

Suggestions?

[claire7]

Is there a reason to rush a response? Write a draft, let it sit at least overnight. See how it sounds in the morning. Would that help you gain clarity?

The end of the A seems new. Don't rush...

[T384]

I agree. Think things through. There is no need to rush a response. Write it out. Post it here. Think about it for a few days.

[Maybell]

Here, Claire, food for thought.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...566#Post2067566

Trying to figure out why it was so urgent to deal with all that today. Silly me! Thanks for urging restraint.

[claire7]

Gonna re-read that a bunch of times.

Thanks.

[Meghan]

Waiting is good - I'd recommend the same thing.

It sounds to me like your spending a lot of time anticipating what your H. might be thinking. I totally get that (seems to be the only thing I do sometimes these days) - it's so hard not to, particularly when it feels like you're trying to figure out the magic sequence of steps that will make everything okay again and reconnect you.

For now, is it maybe worth trying to focus on what you want and what you're most comfortable with, rather than trying to think through all the possible permutations of what he's thinking or doing? You have a pretty big stake in this, and it's clear there are things that you're comfortable with. Maybe focusing on that is the way to go to ground yourself?

[Maybell]

Reporting something I found on Labug's thread because I love John Lennon and it's a great quote:

There are two basic motivating forces: fear and love. When we are afraid, we pull back from life. When we are in love, we open to all that life has to offer with passion, excitement, and acceptance. We need to learn to love ourselves first, in all our glory and our imperfections. If we cannot love ourselves, we cannot fully open to our ability to love others or our potential to create. Evolution and all hopes for a better world rest in the fearlessness and open-hearted vision of people who embrace life. ~ John Lennon

[Meghan]

That's lovely - thank you!

[Maybell]

There's a conflict in me between wanting him back and not wanting to be in any relationship at all right now.

I look at it more closely and I see that what I want is a close friendship with him, the pleasure of his time & company, but to have my liberty too.

Because I'm starting to feel like as a woman a relationship means I'm shackled to the other person's needs & desires. This is my parents' example. And I never felt like a whole, sufficient person without a guy by my side. And now I'm letting myself try that on. I need to change my idea of who I can be in a relationship so that returning to one doesn't mean the end of me.

IC has been challenging me the last few weeks to share these things with H. I had been resisting because of OW. That's what my email was about -- taking my courage in the moment it showed up and using it to share how I felt because OW is gone.

I want to reply to his email because I want to take the conversation deeper, find out what he meant by some of what he said, clarify my own hopes on my side. My courage is limited so email is good, plus the words don't go away. I can revisit and process and say what is true rather than true in the moment. I believe this is true for him as well because he says so much more than when he's speaking.

I recognize that there will always be time to reply and I started to frame a reply but decided there wasn't enough substance to it to go through the effort.

What I really, really want to do is go someplace fun with him and practice being natural together. But I worry he would see that as pursuing.

I think my IC would say I can invite him out and be specific about my intentions so neither of us feel crowded. I worry I am pursuing him and I worry about misreading the moment.

This is a lot of work.

[labug]

Slow down a bit.

[Maybell]

Yes, I think the wheels have come off.

[claire7]

I was thinking the same thing as labug. You have the gift of time! No need to rush into a next step, right? And it might push him away. ..

[vossy]

I hope you don't mind me adding my opinion here, but I have been following your thread this whole time and there has been a shift in your posts ever since your husband ended his A. The general "vibe" I am getting from you is that you feel the need to do something, anything, and you feel the need to do it now.

I'm not saying that it's wrong, but perhaps you need to take a step back and realise the course has already changed. He's ended his relationship with the OW, so the course has changed.. you don't need to necessarily change it again right now.

There is a sense of urgency to your posts lately.

Please don't take offence to this, it's just my two cents..

[Maybell]

Thank you, Vossy. You all are right. I'm losing it. Or I've lost it. I need to pull myself together.

What's happened to me???

[Meghan]

Maybell - you've gotten excited (which is totally normal and natural) and I suspect you're trying to lock in the changes that you've seen and maybe try to move them along faster.

Consider how long you've been at this and how frustrating it's been for you and how easy it's been to jump on the smallest hint of change. This seems to be a bigger change, and I imagine that makes it even harder to step back and keep on keepin' on with what you were doing before.

Don't lay all your cards on the table right now. I'd hate for you to be upset again if he backed away or freaked out because of too much too quickly.

For now, take your time, keep posting here, and give some more thought to some of those first points that you made about not wanting to lose yourself in a relationship. Keep thinking about what you want, how you want to work on yourself, and what would need to change for you to be in a successful relationship with your H. where you don't fundamentally change who you are.

[labug]

It's OK no judgment. Take a moment or more, to realize what's happening, then reset.

Am I right in thinking that once you have a goal, you're laser-focused on reaching it?

If so, was that a problem in the marriage?

Take time to experience what's going on, make changes and adjustments as needed, pay attention, on purpose.

There's no need to get anywhere, is there?

[labug]

It's OK, no judgment. Take a moment or more, to realize what's happening, then reset.

Am I right in thinking that once you have a goal, you're laser-focused on reaching it?

If so, was that a problem in the marriage?

Take time to experience what's going on, make changes and adjustments as needed, pay attention, on purpose.

There's no need to get anywhere, is there?

[Maybell]

Thank you all. You are all exactly right. Sorry for the meltdowns.

Labug, I've been reading your old threads. Because it makes me laugh, I'm going to take one of your lines as one of my mantras:

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead!

And repeat it every time I start revving my engine.

And, yes, my laser focus on a goal HAS been a problem in my marriage. Having a plan makes my patience utterly evaporate. It made my H crazy and was probably a tipping point issue from all the crises of the last 3-4 years (or more).

Thanks for the timely reminders you all. Big breath and I'm going back to my regular programming. As best I can.

[mdu]

Oh Maybell, you know I have a very similar challenge around getting inpatient.

I think there may be a way to use your goal orientation to your advantage. I spoke with DBing coach yesterday about clarifying my goals and right now it’s simply reconnecting with H. Any interaction I have or plan to initiate with H I think through the lens of that goal. Is what I’m doing or about to do helping or hurting that goal? I like having a goal because I’m goal oriented as well but it also keeps me in check --- for instance, I know that rushing things will hurt my overall goal of reconnecting. So I reach out but keep it very limited and back WAY off the instant I get signals that it’s too much. I also keep away from R or OW talks as I know that will push H away as well.

So since you like goals, maybe have a goal, but make a small, baby step one.

My two cents, fwiw

[Maybell]

Reading your old threads, labug, and seeing how wobbly you got too when your H started hanging out at your house more. So glad I'm ordinary human. I'm feeling less freaked out now. A big long cry helped get the crazy out and I'm back to work on my projects. Thanks for all the support, friends.

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead!

But...

I'm not dead yet!

[Maybell]

And seeing how vitally important self-care is. Ok, I'm on it!

[Maybell]

Tonight was not a successful evening.

I was invited to a ladies night get together at the home of one of my daughter's friends. I was looking forward to the evening because it was all people who I know by sight but no one I know well. I got there on time so there were five of us there, including a woman in our extended circle who is going through an extremely messy and highly public and ugly divorce. Her H cheated on her with a 26 yo, same as mine, but he's been beyond ugly about it all. So the hostess, who wasn't aware of my situation, asked her how she was doing, and there follows a highly ugly, extremely detailed account of how horrendous her H has been behaving.

I sat through 15-20 minutes of this before I was pretty sure I was going to throw up and then I grabbed my purse, gritted out "I'm sorry, I've got to go" and bolted.

My hostess is a very nice person and she followed me out and the moment I got onto the sidewalk I was just sobbing. It was awful. Humiliating. And I had to confess why and that was humiliating and it took a while to regain my composure.

The silver lining here is that I acknowledged my truth, that I couldn't sit through hearing about the other woman's sitch, and I took care of myself. Maybe next time I'll have more grace.

My hostess was lovely and amazing, really nurturing and concerned. The woman who all this had happened to knew perfectly well my situation -- we share a BFF. (I don't particularly like her and I think it's mutual, but two of our kids are same ages and share activities, so...) R eventually came outside and apologized very nicely for being insensitive. I went back to the party, more people showed up, and the evening was sort of salvaged. But I was counting the minutes till I could come home.

This woman needed to vent and I don't grudge her that one bit. Not even a little. But I really needed to not listen to that situation. My body practically exploded when I got to the sidewalk, I was crying so hard. Pre-DB me probably would have quietly endured and gone home early. I went back in after I calmed down because I really, really needed not to go back to my quiet house. So I made sure I got my needs met.

What my husband has done in having the affair and leaving the marriage is tremendously hurtful and, many would argue, objectively wrong. What R's husband has done besides the affair absolutely is objectively wrong, period. He has been awful. The entire town has been talking about how awful he is, because it's gotten so bad it makes the papers. R's position to BFF is that I'm lucky, because my H had an affair but has otherwise behaved reasonably well; but SHE married a Bad Guy.

There is a part of me that questions some of this. Does having an A make a person a Bad Guy? This is why so many people think it's a deal-breaker. There are whole websites devoted to discussing and outing cheaters. When I think of people knowing that I let myself be cheated on and stood by my man, Tammy Wynette style, it makes me wonder... Am I standing for a Bad Guy?

I don't honestly think I am standing for a bad guy. But it's true that things between us are bad and he hasn't been historically all that interested in being a nurturer. And few people know what he did (I gave BFF permission to tell R because I thought we could be helpful to one another, before I knew the extent of her situation).

I'm not sure if I'm asking an answerable question here, but the incident was profoundly upsetting after I was just working so hard to regain my balance and I hoped processing it here would help. I don't think I'm at the bottom of it yet. Hopefully I'll have better answers in the morning.

[Maybell]

Woke up this morning with the bad taste of last night still in my mouth. I didn't sleep well because I suspect there's a vagrant sleeping in one of the outbuildings on my property and last night one of my friends, who lives down the alley from me, confirmed she'd seen a very sketchy looking character going down the alley but it didn't occur to her he would stay the night. I feel really vulnerable and alone. I haven't been able to confirm there was a vagrant because there wasn't enough disorder that it wasn't reasonable to attribute to the kids. Now they're not here. I may put a padlock on that door.

I also feel really, really badly about how I treated H when it became clear our first MC was failing. He wouldn't engage at all and I just got angrier and angrier. I couldn't understand what he wanted -- he just completely shut down. I couldn't reach him and I was so hurt and furious and scared I treated him really badly a lot of the time. I so wish I could do that over. Even if he was going to shut down so completely I didn't have to be such a gigantic b!%^h. Is there anything I can do to make amends for that?

Lunch with my SAHD friend & his kids today. Reserving my kayak lesson, more job search work, a run, and house projects. On the fence about talking to BFF about last night but afraid R WILL tell her and she's the sort of person who would take personal responsibility for that happening. I do not want to revisit it in any way. And I certainly don't want BFF, who is incredibly kind and supportive, to feel any need to apologize at all.

[Ggrass]

I waffle in the bad guy issue are they a bad person?

Am I a door mat for thinking of standing or return to m?

I don't think I know those answers, I don't think anyone does, period.

[Maybell]

Every time I think I'm going to take a break from the boards I spend "just five more minutes" on labug's thread and find something new to process through. This morning it was a discussion about laying down the save my marriage banner and picking up the save me banner.

I lost my cool this week about the end of OW because I was carrying the save my marriage banner. What I tried to process through about that get together last night was more of the same. I think this morning I'm looking at the save me banner lying there on the ground and wondering when I dropped it, or if I ever even spent much time carrying it.

I don't care for R because she's like my dark side. She's vain and self-centered, ignores what other people ask of her when working in a group if she doesn't feel like dealing with it (this is also a characteristic of my husband) takes what I think is excessive pride in her contributions to a group effort, and attributes her children's misbehavior to others. All the work I've done since a teenager to accept people as they are, to be humble, to see myself as part of a greater whole feels threatened by her self-centeredness. (I don't give her this much attention generally, I'm just trying to articulate some things here). Her comparison of our two situations is the distilled version of what I don't like about her. But I could very easily be just like her, if I didn't work to be what I see as better than that.

Part of the reason her situation is the talk of the town is that she has made a mission of gathering support for herself by letting everyone know exactly how awful her H is behaving. He has become a pariah among his own friends as well as hers and not only does she take pleasure in this, she encourages others to as well. Then he responds outrageously and self-destructively and the cycle escalates.

I have behaved exactly the opposite. This doesn't make me better. Her H has behaved horribly.

I'm still not quite getting to why that was so upsetting. Nor why my first thought this morning was the deep remorse I feel for how I treated my H before he left. Maybe I'm acknowledging that I gave in to my dark side during that period? And I saw last night how poisonous it was?

Something about that word poison is ringing true for me but I'm still not quite there. Probably by the time I get to the nugget of truth in all this it will be so banal you all will be standing around giving me golf claps and calling me Captain Obvious.

[BigMac]

Maybell,

I've had those same realizations, that both sides have their hurtful and negative personalities that existed in the past relationship. At the end of the day, the past doesn't exist anymore, the future has yet to be created, all that exists is today.

You are being strong today, you are improving you life today, you are working on you R in the best way you can today. That is something to be proud of.

[Maybell]

I do think it's unfair and unkind of her to claim that my pain is less than her pain. Just because I don't go demanding it from the entire town doesn't mean it hurts less.

Thanks for the support, BigMac and Ggrass.

I do wish I could make amends to H for my bad behavior when we were going down the tubes. Since I can't for now I'm just going to go about my day as scheduled.

[labug]

I hope my threads are helpful but I don't remember everything that's there. It's been a long time. I think I was so unsettled in convos with H because I had many expectations about how it "should" be. When I was able to let him be who he was, things got better.

What I do know is that this journey, reading and writing here, IC, meditation, yoga have helped me become me, the woman I was meant to be.

My family and I are facing some big challenges right now and just this morning as I was making coffee I was amazed that I slept so well last night, that I'm not in a state of "victim" and that I can really enjoy life even with its very real difficulties.

Another of my favorite quotes: I am the sky, everything else is just the weather.

[Eatsma]

Oh! That is a good quote labug!

And I'd just like to add that yoga has been amazing for me, too.

My yoga teacher told me early in the process, "You are strong enough." She meant it for me learning a headstand, but I've used it for almost everything else.

[claire7]

Maybell,

You've posted some amazing introspection the last couple of days. I, too, have been trying to set a goal of taking a break from these boards. (One of my personal goals is going to be to check this board and FB only 2x/day...)

Anyway, the parts your wrote about wanting to make amends, forgiving yourself, the comparisons to your "friend" about how she is pouring negative energy into the world... reminded me that DB tactics feel very similar to Buddhist principles to me.

I am not religious, but the core ideals of Buddhism (and I am no expert, so this is just MY interpretation, which is working for ME), that seem to jive well with DB and have helped me are:

-- I will put out into the world (even to my WAH) the energy I wish to receive back. (and "Be the change I wish to see in the world")
-- I cannot control anything except myself. I CAN control myself.
-- I can have compassion, even for my 'enemies'
-- I must accept that change is inevitable, and use it to learn and grow. ("The river will flow how it flows")
-- Detaching myself from "wants" that I cannot control can release me from suffering.
-- The path to peace is to look inward.
--We cannot go backwards, we can only move forwards.

Again, these are MY OWN interpretations of Buddhism. These are the core principles I have been trying to live by lately.

Now that I've finished this, I'm not exactly sure why I wrote it here! But maybe it will help you think through some of your questions (is he a "bad guy?"), and feelings of guilt...

((hugs))

[Meghan]

Maybell,

That's a frustrating situation, and I'm sorry that you went through it and that it got to you so much.

I'm afraid I don't have an answer about the "bag guy" question, other than to say that "bad guy" and "good guy" are binaries that can't and don't reflect a whole continuum of experience. Someone who has an A could otherwise appear to be the most stand-up guy in the world while someone who doesn't have an A could still be a relatively mediocre person. I think this comes down to your perspective - if an A isn't a dealbreaker for you, and your H. otherwise seems to behave as a reasonable, functional adult, it's your call on where on the continuum he falls and whether you're standing for a bad guy or not.

Based on what you've said, though, I think you know your own stance on this already. I wonder if perhaps hearing this other story of someone who is dealing with what sounds to be a very negative situation has you questioning your own perspective on your situation, particularly since she seems to be focused on having people aware and getting them on her side in a judgmental kind of way. Is it possible that you're actually wondering not so much whether your H. is actually a bad guy, but whether other people might see him as a bad guy and you as questionable for standing by him?

That said, everyone's pain is their own, I don't think we can judge anyone else's pain, and she's not correct to say that your pain is somehow less than hers because the situation is different or, as is quite possibly the case, because you're handling it differently from her.

In terms of making amends to your H. for the way you behaved, I'm going to suggest that you try to forgive and make amends with yourself first. No one behaves perfectly all the time, and I'm sure there were contributions that your H. made, too (like shutting down). It's important to recognize your role in what happened, and where you slipped up, so this is a good thing. But you also need to cut yourself some slack, too. (Yes, this is very rich coming from me, but I really do think it's the thing to do, as hard as it is.)

[Maybell]

Labug I'm sorry you're facing a challenge right now. Sending warm vibes to a woman who has been a huge part in helping me see more clearly.

I like the sky/weather quote.

I had thought I would compose an email apologizing for my behavior but thanks to Claire I think I see WHY that isn't necessary.

Meghan you (and labug) are both right about the self-forgiveness thing. And I think I can see what needs to be done to make it happen.

I AM relieved to be me. I am relieved to see a way to move forward that doesn't depend on him, and to be carrying the Save Me banner. That Save My Marriage banner was hard to hang on to.

Thank you for helping me find my balance again.

[Maybell]

Laughing at today's horoscope:

Take inventory of your habits and behaviors, Aries. Look to certain patterns and note the ones that do and don't work for you. You'll more than likely feel an urge to break free from repetition and create new paths that allow for other opportunities to come along. You may not even be consciously aware that in many ways you're beating a dead horse. Don't continue to waste your energy on paths that go nowhere.

[claire7]

The universe is speaking to you!!!!

[Meghan]

Oh my - I'm an Aries too, and that's too perfect!

[Tarheel]

My fortune from my fortune cookie today- This is a night for love and affection.

Hmm, the dog that sleeps in bad with me?!

[Maybell]

So, horoscope notwithstanding...

Today I find myself just exhausted. Combination of the bad night's sleep, the pain of the incident last night, the emotion of all the thoughts about H and OW splitting up... I'm just flat out tired. What if I just let go of any idea of reconciliation and him and all that and just let what happens, happen?

(Oh, she's finally got it, they say. Golf clap. Way to go, Captain Obvious, you finally go to the end of the book!)

Is it a sign?

I got to "end of the book" and my good friend stopped over to pick something up. We admired my neighbor's beautiful garden and the neighbor stopped out and in the course of the conversation mentioned the abandoned house across the street. Told us the whole story. Friend and I go to look -- it's perfect. Just a little wear that I have the knowledge & contacts to deal with. Not on the market so I have time to find out if I'm going to need it before it gets snatched out from under me. And I have an in for potentially getting into it.

I'm not giving up on H, but I think perhaps it's time to relax and just see what happens, trusting that I'm taken care of no matter what.

[T384]

Maybell

I agree. Relaxing and trusting what happens. It doesn't meant to give up but to let go of what we know we cannot control. Ultimately what will be will be. I know this is easier said than done but this has been something I've been thinking about a lot today especially since last nights interaction. With H.

I think when we relax, just like letting go, our S can 'feel it'. I always think of Thornton telling me he can feel that his exw still pines over him. Nothing she says or does but he can feel it.

Cheers to all of us relaxing and letting go

[bashy]

Maybell, you have been so kind to me I need to send you prayers back.

Relax, stay calm, cool and collected, and see how things play out. A bit rich coming from me lol but I know u can do it.

I'm praying for u.....

[claire7]

Maybell,

I think we are in a similar place wrt "letting go". And there is a whole 'nother chunk of grieving that goes along with that. You are moving forward, though the path is not completely linear. It has jagged edges, as it should. Those edges allow you to pause, look back, and see just how far you have really come before you continue on.

Seems like you are in a good pausing place.

I will be thanking you and praying for you in my meditation tonight.

[Maybell]

I am so blessed with so much warmth and support. I can feel it. Thank you all so much. You make me feel rich.

I'll be thinking of you all in my prayers tonight too (as I always do)

[Meghan]

Maybell, I'm sending lots of warm thoughts and good wishes your way too.

It's hard to let go but if you can, I think it's for the best. It sounds like you could use some calm and some peace (couldn't we all?), and letting go could help with that quite a bit.

[Maybell]

I'm thinking that the reason this week has been so tough for me is that it has been the first week since BD, over a year ago, when I've had the chance to process through everything that has happened.

Our marriage was happy for several years. After the kids were born the pace of our life picked up, due to both our choices. The attention he gave me declined and my responsiveness to him declined and somehow we weren't one another's first priorities anymore. Over time I made some fairly demanding bids for his attention. I felt increasingly frustrated, and then we left a town where I was outstandingly happy with my life to move to the west coast.

I held onto my resentment for that move for many years. We made some bad choices that I think can be attributed to his ADD and my not investigating more carefully, trusting to his expertise.

There were stretches in between when we were happy and attentive to one another. But we didn't sustain them well and it was generally me who tried to draw us closer to one another. Not exclusively. But generally.

When I looked at the finances and realized our trouble I told him I was really frustrated that his main responsibility in the household had been so mishandled. That was harsh. I am sorry I said that (and have said so since).

We still might perhaps have recovered but I think his unhappiness at his job, which he never confessed to me till he had given notice (he had done the same thing when we moved west as well), combined with turning 40, losing his hair, our daughter *developing* and the new move just pushed him right over into OW's bed.

After I found out about A I was probably ten times more volatile than even during the moves. There was no part of me that could fathom that he could do that to me and I should be the one showing him compassion. This was more than he could bear and eventually he threw in the towel.

Over the course of my threads I haven't focused on many of my faults in the marriage; for me it's been more about detaching. So there are my faults: impatience, volatility, harshness. Those were the faults that made him keep his anxieties from me... But also his own reserve caused that. I am working to curb my faults. I think the impatience will be the hardest to govern, but I'm working on it.

I'm not going to lay claim to having found more detachment today but I think I can see a greater divide between my issues and his issues. I don't know what will happen in the future but I see that time is on my side.

I am a woman and so one of my greatest needs is for security and stability. I did not think before I met H that I was sufficient to provide that for myself and so I dated frantically and didn't think my life could start till I was married. Now my task is to realize that I absolutely can provide my own security and stability and that I'm going to have to learn how to do it.

If you're going through hell, don't stop there.
Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead!
I'm not dead yet!

All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well.

[Meghan]

You can absolutely provide your own security and stability! Just think of how much more power you'll have because you'll know your own strength and abilities and won't feel like you're depending on anyone other than yourself.

It's scary, I know, but as the breadwinner and the person who's largely supported H. for years, I can definitely say that knowing you can take care of yourself is incredibly empowering. I also imagine that it could be a good thing for your relationship, particularly if responsibility is something that was an issue between you in the past, which it seems that it was.

That said, I think it's important to recognize both your own abilities and what you expect from a partner, too. Until recently, I don't think I fully realised just how important security and stability were to me, and how much I was withdrawing from H. because there were ways he wasn't providing them. Although he gave a lot of emotional care, I was left feeling like most of the practical responsibilities were on me. Knowing that I was capable of taking care of both of us didn't do much to mitigate the feelings that I wasn't being supported in ways that would let me feel more secure.

[Maybell]

Meghan, I've been a SAHM for 12 years. Getting a real job that can support me and three kids is intimidating. I know he'll be paying support for the kids and a limited amount for me, but the idea of having no safety net is scary. It will be just me.

I'm scared of the next phase. I'm scared of getting through it. I miss the good him, being connected to him. I'm angry that we are where we are. I think I've come to another level of realization that this is real but liberating is only a small part of what I feel about it. But I do really need to step back and let him go. It's past time. I've held on too firmly.

[Maybell]

What would happen if I said I wanted us to sell the house?

It wouldn't be about drawing him closer. It would be about protecting my PMA. We closed on it after he started the affair -- but I didn't know. It was supposed to have been perfect for us. But it poisons me everytime I walk into it. It's too much work for me by myself and if we have another winter like last winter I think I might get flattened.

We're not even legally separated yet but I won't stay in the house if we divorce. The property is enormous and has three outbuildings, at least one of which I'm pretty sure has housed vagrants on more than one occasion -- probably two of them.

I'd like to find a rental that would be just the right size for me and the kids. That would buy me time to figure out what my next chapter is going to look like.

Thoughts?

[vossy]

I hate to say it but again I feel you are rushing. It's been maybe less than 24 hours since you decided you had to let go a little.. and you seem to already be on to the next thing.. I feel like I am being rude by saying this, but I think you just need to take a couple of days, if you can, without thinking about "what's next."

[Maybell]

And you all can shoot me but I did send a text apologizing for all the yelling I did before he moved out. I didn't do it as a DB move. I did it in response to the incident on Wednesday night with the party. I talked to my friend about it and she said that the woman who is divorcing her husband is out to spread maximum pain to him. That was completely clear. I realized that I had been spreading some pain in being so needy and demanding and angry and I wanted to forgive myself. So I sent the apology, with the words "this is so I can move past all that" in the text.

He said he was sorry for not being more attentive and that he accepted my apology.

And now it's back to low contact. And moving into my next phase.

And I feel like I owe some love around here, but I hope no one will be disappointed that for today I think I need to tend to my own needs.

[Meghan]

It is a scary thing, and I really do understand that liberating is a feeling that gets easily lost in everything else.

The truth is that I've been taking care of me and then of us for a long time now and being on my own still scares me, even though I've been doing it for something like a decade and a half. I put myself through many years of university and supported two people for a few of those years. I'm proud of that.

But I've always seen him as my backup - if something happened to me or my job, I assumed he would take over. I've held onto this even though he hasn't worked in four years and has turned down jobs. His help has largely been helping me deal with work issues and using some of whatever money he has from a small inheritance to pay for groceries.

I suppose he still could back me up financially, but it hasn't really happened yet. And despite all of this I'm still frightened by the idea that I could be in a lesser or more vulnerable position without a partner.

I'm also with you in terms of missing the good H. I still think there is good in him, and if things really had gone south he would have done what he could to care for me and for us. Believing in some inherent goodness adds another level of pain both to having to provide my own security now and looking back and wondering why so much of the responsibility was on me rather than on us.

That was a long (and somewhat cathartic) way of saying that it's hard, even in the best of circumstances, and I'm really sorry that you're having to face this now. I do genuinely believe it's empowering, but it's an empowerment that's also tied up in a range of other emotions and issues, including fear, resentment, and anger. I do hope that it can become empowering for you, though, even if it's not feeling so much like that now.