"Speak Softly" The MLC Version

[beatrice]

Bomb drop sometimes happens well into MLC so they are already being strange and distant, and frankly not very loveable. I think the earlier it happens, or the faster MLC comes on, the more blindsided we are.

I can see if you spouse has been behaving like a jerk for some time, his going away would be a relief.

How is the rooster? (the young one!)

[GoatGal]

OK. Thanks guys!
I'll start with AJM.


"Why on earth would I want to be with someone who treats me like that?"
I wouldn't.

In the past it was so insidious and I didn't know what was really going on.
It's only now with hindsight that I see how it got so bad and how I slowly adapted (and disconnected) over time.
I knew that he looked at porn and had suspicions, but he'd always had a "low sex drive" since we met, so there was no change in frequency, just a change in how it felt emotionally. Again, this happened slowly.

We don't easily recognize the process of gradual aging in ourselves, because we're seeing our faces in the mirror every day. When we see a friend we haven't seen in 20 years, it's a surprise.
It's like that.
My experience has been like seeing a picture of myself at 20 and one from today, and saying:
"How did this happen? How did I not notice?"

When changes are slowly made over time, they sort of sneak up on you.
I didn't realize until now how much I was squelching how I felt.

I don't say "unhappy" because I WASN'T.
I'm a happy person, I have lots of joy in my life.
My R with H was based on respect, trust, I thought he had this wonderful character, "sterling", I always called him.
He was the best guy I knew.
(Not much in the sack, but hey--I could live with that. And I did. Because I didn't know what he was really up to.)
-----------------------------------------

I trusted him completely, I never spoke ill of him, either to others or to his face.
I always had his back and he always had mine.
I never cheated, not even close. I was completely open and honest with him.

And when I expressed any dissatisfaction with our R, he resorted to blaming, deflecting, manipulating the heck out of me, picking a fight... my Aspie social skills are better now, but back then, I didn't clue into what he was doing.
It's typical addict behavior--the deception.

On the other hand, he was very kind to me, did things for me all the time, was actively trying to speak HIS love languages to me--but they weren't mine so I felt frustrated.
I wanted his time and attention and physical affection. Those were things I had to learn to live without for the most part.
I tried to express my love for him, but not knowing about the 5 LL, I was missing that brass ring. But I did express love in my LL, but they were rebuffed... sometimes with anger...and he made it plain he didn't need or want what I was offering. He seemed so independent, not needing anything from me.

He wouldn't accept love, or help, or kindness. He only wanted to give it, and then only in very specific, rigid ways.
-------------------------------------

I still don't believe he's done any of this to hurt me. I don't think it's about me.
And I don't think it's because of me either.
Neither the porn, the lies, the affair, the MLC... it's all on him.

He struggles with issues that have nothing to do with me, except that as his wife, I'm in the same boat with him.

Looking back, I can see how easily I was convinced that what he told me was true.
Now I think of things he said (I never forgot them) and understand those statements for the deflections they were.

So I really didn't KNOW until recently what the truth was.
No surprise he wants to be rid of me.
Now I know the truth, and he has nowhere else to hide.
-------------------------------------

As for my part. I'm hardly perfect.
I hate housework and I am a SAH Pet/Farm Mom.
I struggle with certain things due to my ADD/Asperger's.

My conditions are mild, I was only diagnosed in my early 40's. My mother still doesn't believe it!
I have a back injury and chronic pain which makes bending and lifting and manual labor painful.
Yet I do it any way. I do not let him see how this affects me.
In the past, I used to. No doubt he thinks I've been "cured". Hardly.

However, I compensate extremely well as far as getting things done, staying organized, etc.
And I have been attending therapy and getting support for years.
I am highly motivated to continue to improve throughout my life and most people would have no clue of my diagnoses. I am more than willing to conquer my own chit for myself.
(Not because of DBing, but because I've always been like that.)

If I can be better, or make it better, I'm going to work on that.
---------------------------------------

Regardless of any challenges I may have, I have always been a good wife to him, and I have done nothing to "justify" his treatment of me. I have been loving, available, sexually open, kind, willing to listen and make changes as needed. But he never asked for anything. He didn't complain or express unhappiness.

We always say "No mind reading". Well, I wasn't good at it before BD either!

So if he never said anything about his "miserable marriage" before he started cheating on me with OW, (at which point he became a total A**hat... and I was at a loss as to what was going on), how was I supposed to "get it"?
He wasn't acting differently, just a slow, insidious withdrawal that pretty much mirrored my own.
The difference being he was miserable, and I was still happy, because I was getting my emotional needs met elsewhere in healthy ways.
I would have preferred having a least half of my emotional needs met with my husband, but that wasn't a choice I had.
----------------------------

So back to the original question:

I would only want a R with a man who truly had the qualities I believe my H still has deep down, and who is willing and able to dump a lot of his baggage. For himself, and for us.
It's holding him back from being happy, and it is preventing him from having a fulfilling R with anyone, not just me.

If he is not willing to do that, then I am not willing to continue a R with him.

-----GGG

[Wonka]

GGG,

I would only want a R with a man who truly had the qualities I believe my H still has deep down, and who is willing and able to dump a lot of his baggage. For himself, and for us.

We all have our baggage. The trick, I believe, is being able to learn to live with WHICH kinds of baggage the spouse brings in the M. So in your case, which specific kinds of baggage that YOU are not willing to accept in regard to H other than porn?

Porn is the obvious baggage that is weighing down the M and himself frankly. It is within his control to address and I think he's just begun to do so with that mysterious "forever" medical appointment a few days ago. What do you think?

[GoatGal]

You're right, Wonka.

And I have my own baggage, obviously. But I try not to let that weigh me down or define me. I actively work on that now, and I always have.

Things I can't live with:

Constant emotional distance. I can handle plenty, but we need to connect more often.

Inability to cooperate, communicate, plan and work as a team so we can get things done. (He resists plans, agreeing to anything...) Plan ahead to complete projects, compromise, etc. We are in the middle of a whole-house remodel. I live in chaos. This is a must.

The tendency to see any disagreement/suggestion as criticism. So it's impossible to come to agreement about things. I don't bother about little things, but when it comes to our health/welfare and that of our animals, there IS a right and a wrong way to do things! (I'm talking SAFETY here.)

Unwilling to communicate his needs and wants. Wants me to 'just know".

Stubborn resistance to change, to adapt, to try something new.

Unwilling to look awkward, cut loose, and just enjoy.

Inability to process his emotions and express them constructively, instead resenting me for things that are not my fault.

Dishonesty/secrecy/hiding

Passive/covert aggression, manipulation.

Porn and OW or any "cheating"

Unwilling to learn new behaviors so he can meet more of MY needs in the R, physically, emotionally, sexually.

Unwilling to compromise in general. He just says "I don't want to". End of discussion. If I push it, historically he'd blame me and send me off on a tangent.
I'm wise to that now.

This is just what I dashed off---and I don't like it because it all focuses on him and all the negatives.

I think it would be more constructive to frame this positively in terms of what I do want from him, specifically.

So I'm not going to delete this "list of his faults" as I would like, because these are the things I am no longer willing to have in my M to the extent that they have been.

I don't expect perfection or a total change, but baby steps towards improvement that occurs over time, with no return to the way things were.

If not, I'd rather be alone.

---GGG

[GoatGal]

And as for his "mystery appointment", I really don't know what it was.

I may never know. But it was something... and the Sunday before he started to say something important, then trailed off...


If he wants me to know about it, he'll tell me when he feels the time is right.

IF that's what it was, it's going to take some time for him to digest what they tell him, and see if he feels there is any hope for him to improve his ability to be in a real R with a woman. And of course, there would be a lot of treatment and work for him to do.


I do HOPE however. I really do!


And as for the "baggage" again.

It's OK to have it, as long as it's not too heavy to get on the airplane.

He would have to learn to cope with it, and not let his fears and phobias continue to hinder his ability to enjoy life.

---GGG

[rayzzz]

I only have hugs for you GGG.....but they are pretty orangutang in nature and hard to slip out of....with that soothing hairy ape like fragrance....breathe it in

Clearly this excruciating time with WAH has given you the eyes of a hawk to map out what is lacking and what you have done in yourself to make this boat of a M seaworthy. The detachment stage you are at is phenomenal and I am guessing this is making the "we will see" period a bit easier as you have remarked on how he is making some subtle changes.
Keep that guard up and your happy confident self in that free falling GAL mode.
You are doing it....now this oranguatang is gonna see if he can strum out a happy Uke tune of patience and deleirous joy for you.

[GoatGal]

rayzzz---

Isn't there a "LIKE" button on this thing?


---GGG

[GoatGal]

Bea,

Admit it, you have a virtual crush on my Poe!!!

(Named after Edgar Allen, he looks like a Crow-Chicken on steroids. If he were a man... well, I'd have a little crush on him too, at least until the novelty wore off!)

Dr. Freud would have a lot to say on THAT one. ;0

Anyhow, Poe is doing great, has a lot of chicks, and runs away like a scaredy cat when I flap my arms at him.

Bart now comes to see me all the time, and although he is not yet eating out of my hand, I see him coming closer all the time.

H still doesn't like Poe, and every now and then I see Poe giving Bart a run for his money over the ladies.

-------------------

I definitely see another analogy here.

Poe represents all the young males out there who H might be threatened by.
Of course, I know they're no threat to him.
They're just ego-boosters and diversions.
Some are friends and will be friends for life.
I've always had male friends, and I am still friendly with old boyfriends, not like we hang out, but we're still in contact about their kids, travels, families, that sort of thing.
Which to me is one indicator that my previous relationships were healthy with healthy people.
People I still like and respect, and visa-versa. Nothing flirty or inappropriate. EVER.
These relationships have always been very transparent and above-board.
H has also had women friends over the years. I never had a problem with it and jealousy for me was nonexistent. (Until OW, that is. Then I had a reason to be jealous and angry.)

Bart represents my H. More passive, older, less apt to assert himself.
Who is being displaced to some degree from the kingdom he used to rule alone.
Now he has competition from younger males... and he doesn't like it.
On the other hand, he WON'T FIGHT FOR HIS KINGDOM, EITHER.
---------------------------------
Crap!

Now I don't know if H is a:
paramecium
amoeba
St. Bernard
rabid squirrel
or a cock-a-doodle-y dang rooster!

(Now that I think of it, H is nothing like a St. Bernard. He's more like a Llasa Apso...)

I think there also might be an Orangutan in there too.
(I love me some hairy apes. Especially the super-smart ones. )

This experiment is getting complicated!

I need to restrict my subject pool.
(Or at least my metaphors.)

Maybe a poll is required.

Would you all prefer to hear about roosters, dog training, amoebas, or squirrels? Or Orangs?


---GGG

[GoatGal]

Wonka: The Final Answer:

W: "In the past you felt alone even with H around due to his negative energy and skewed view due to his porno addiction. What I am saying here is that it is possible that H is making attempts to move away from negative stimuli (porno)."

Hmmmm....
I hope that's the case.
However, I'm not sure if he sees porn as a "negative".
I hope that he might be seeing the effects of it on his life, and on his life with me.
How it has impacted his ability to be "real" in our M, and affected his abilities in the bedroom.
I think he is addicted, and that it disgusts him, that's the typical scenario.

Every porn addict I've spoken with has said that there is a strong element of self-disgust, shame... they hate what they're doing when it gets to this point.

But they also keep doing it because it makes them feel "good".
Until they get disgusted again. Just like any addiction.
-----------------------------

W: "If that is indeed happening per your theory of moving away from negative stimuli postulate, then I wonder if you would feel more comfortable knowing that H, in his own way, is working on himself and his issues in that particular arena?"

I *think* me backing off from encouraging him to get help has allowed him to feel that it's HIS CHOICE to do so, IF in fact that's what he's doing.

In any case, he can no longer blame me for his unhappiness.
If he is unhappy with his life and his porn problem, he has only to look at himself at this point.
I *think* this might be what is happening, since he has now said several things to indicate that he is not "happy" now with the way things are.

And yes, it would make me feel more comfortable. Validated.
It would mean that--regardless of what he's said:
IT'S NOT ME!!! (Which I always knew.)
Like all PAs, he tried to blame his "problem" on me or the M.
Since he was the one with the all the hang-ups and the one who always turned me down for sex, I don't think this is the case.

I would respect him greatly for taking that step for himself.
It would mean he is deciding to be brave and face things instead of running from them.
I would be proud of him, and very encouraged.

I understand that if this happens, he's got to come to it on his own time, in his own way, because it's what HE wants for himself, not something he's doing for me.
That's the only way it's going to work.
---------------------------------

W: "You state in Ray's thread that H will need to clean up his chit before you would even consider piecing the M with him. I think, based on what you write here in the DB clipboard, that H is trying to make a sincere effort, in his own way, by making that mystery medical appointment that took FOREVER to complete."

I'd have to go back to rayzzz's thread to remember exactly what I said, but it was mostly about what I was unwilling to deal with any more in a R.

Yes, there are many things that he would have to be actively working on changing, as I am working on improving my end as much as I can.

And yes, he is definitely making some efforts, I can see by his actions.
But without having all the information it's hard to know how much is really positive change and how much I'm just guessing about.

The fact is-- I just don't know yet if those efforts are to possibly restore/rebuild our M, get closer to me and see if this issue can be resolved, or just so we can co-parent our "kids"--or--the worst--- so he can have better sex with women young enough to be his granddaughters! (No chit.)

Ah.... what 30 minutes of solid snooping would do to fill in the gaps!!
And I've thought of it, but stopped myself. For a whole bunch of reasons.

I am able to be patient until he wants to talk about it; IF he does.
------------------------------------

BTW-----

Hey, did I tell all you guys how much you mean to me?

Well, I am so grateful for my friends here at DBing.
You have really been a lifesaver for me. I think if it weren't for this board, I would be suffering still.
Instead, I feel empowered and on track with moving forward.

THANK YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART!!! ((((((Hugs to All!)))))

---GGG

[GoatGal]

I'm posting the bit from rayzzz's thread here because it's relevant:


"Rayzzz,

I know for myself the emotions run up and down, from self-pity, to fear for my future and the future of my animals, to fury at him, anger at myself for not knowing more, for not doing things differently, for allowing myself to be taken advantage of in so many ways.

How could I not have realized this????

Lately my concern is, I don't think he's ever going to be what I need him to be.
This whole experience has made me examine our marriage and I see how, more from my end than his, how it was less than I deserved.


In order for me to be happy in this marriage, he would have to grow and change a great deal.

I'm not sure he'll want to do this, and even if he does, I'm not sure he'll be able to pull it off long-term.

I think about a future with a man who I no longer trust, who is quite a bit older with some health issues, who was able to treat me so terribly...

A man who refused to give me what I needed although I asked and asked until I just gave up. I have changed, for the better.

I am more aware of my faults, what makes me difficult to live with, what qualities in myself I value most, and which parts of myself I would like to keep improving.

I just don't see him putting in the work to do what's needed to pull this marriage out of the nosedive it's in...

We are no longer starting from whatever stagnant rut we were in pre-adultery.
Now there is all that to overcome before we can reach something approaching a valuable partnership; there is SO much work to be done.

I am willing to do my part, but he's got to do his, and then we'd have to do ours together.

I do know that I am no longer willing to put up with the emotional and physical neglect I felt from him, and to be manipulated so he could keep secrets from me.

I want MORE now.

I don't want the "good old H" back, I don't want the MCL/Betraying H in my life AT ALL.
I need a new and very-much-improved H for this to have any chance at all.

rayzzz, if it makes you feel any better, today I spent a good hour trash talking H out loud to myself!"


---GGG