Dealing with WAW Part 2

[pilot]

Original thread here

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2458882#Post2458882


I took this from another post because it does have importance here as well as to most other readers. So it is good to share

Case in point, look at what Pilot said. (And not picking on him, but showing how men see the option of being her friend.)

Take it for what it is and accept the positive steps forward. Do not be too afraid of the friend zone. At this point you are not even in friend zone, so friend zone is a step forward. Plus friend zone could be a stepping stone back to M. Just keep the positive momentum and see where it ends up.

What men need to realize is the high importance of having your W to respect you as a man and as her husband! I mean, if she doesn't want you for her H in her intimate and private life.......how do see being demoted to just a friend as a step forward? Do not mistakenly believe that being her "friend" is better than not being in the friend zone at all. She does not see it with the mind you see it. You have ulterior motives to get the MR back, to restore her feelings, etc. That's the furthest thing from her mind and intentions.

Think about it. You were her leader, protector and partner.....and she no longer found it attractive enough to stay in a R with you. But now you are so greatful to accept what crumbs she offers as a friend? You think she will see you more attractive then? Why and how could she when she so obviously thought you failed as a H?I granted you she lost respect was why she lost the attraction. So, you might as well be her gay guy friend?

You have it in the back of your mind that it will be a stepping stone back to the M. The trap, as I explained in previous post, becomes terribly painful and frustrating as you see her contented with the friend zone and you feel very "used". What is really happening is emotional blackmail.

Guys, she won't respect you even like she respects her other real friends. Know why? B/c you SETTLED to be a freakin friend instead of holding out for the position of H! In the back of her mind, she respects you more for not settling for her crumbs. If she didn't respect you in the most important position of her life, do you really think she will respect you in a lesser role? And if you could not change her mind to be your W while you were in the higher position, what makes you think you can change her mind to be your W when you are in a demoted position? It is a point of respect and attraction. If she doesn't have it for you in M, I doubt seriously she'll have it for you in the friends zone.

Again, I'm not picking on what Pilot said, and I know you all are newcomers and learning. I'm not trying to fight about it......but do admit to being strongly opinionated over the subject. I just want you to see how a WAW thinks so differently from you.

I agree with everything you say Sandi. So you are not picking on me. My post if I recall the OP story right was more towards when a WAW is very confrontational/hateful. So moving towards a friendship is at least a step in the right direction. But you are spot on about respect. It has to be there.

My WAW said early on that she was afraid we would not be friends. I told her of course we would not be friends. I told her she was taking a course of action which would be taking my kids away from me for at least half of their lives until they were 18. I told her I planned on having a relationship with her like my mother and father have (she was a WAW and they rarely speak at all). Her attitude towards me has shifted significantly since our S. I am no longer the pursuer. I am the indifferent confident happy guy who does not contact her except to speak to my kids. She has been making overtures more and more frequently seemingly to reestablish some kind of relationship. But I am not interested until she throws the R on the table to discuss as well as her involvement with OM. Then I will listen.

I did offer an olive branch as I mentioned in my prior post regarding helping her pay some bills. A one time deal to see if she offers up something greater in return.

[labug]

Why would you second guess that decision?

You say "her" credit cards bills which makes it sound like the expenses are hers. Just because it has her name on it or she carries it, doesn't make it "her" debt, as you've explained.

If she's been a SAHM all these years, how is she suddenly supposed to pay family debts.

I think you did the right thing.

I posted this on your last thread and you didn't respond. Did I misread/misinterpret your earlier post on this subject that the things on the CC were family expenses?

If she filed, what did your response include? Have you legally separated finances and as of what date?

You can take the route that you make her pay it all and it can go in arrears and the court will find that it's debt incurred during the marriage and you will have to pay it.

Or she can go to her L and get it hammered out now, creating more expense. Is that really what you want?

There are (at least)2 aspects to marriage, the emotional and the business. Don't try to solve the emotional issues with the business/money part. Using money to try and teach her a lesson won't work. It won't make her respect you. You can't make anyone respect anything. You can scare the heck out of them, but that's not respect.

[pilot]

Why would you second guess that decision?

You say "her" credit cards bills which makes it sound like the expenses are hers. Just because it has her name on it or she carries it, doesn't make it "her" debt, as you've explained.

If she's been a SAHM all these years, how is she suddenly supposed to pay family debts.

I think you did the right thing.

I posted this on your last thread and you didn't respond. Did I misread/misinterpret your earlier post on this subject that the things on the CC were family expenses?

If she filed, what did your response include? Have you legally separated finances and as of what date?

You can take the route that you make her pay it all and it can go in arrears and the court will find that it's debt incurred during the marriage and you will have to pay it.

Or she can go to her L and get it hammered out now, creating more expense. Is that really what you want?

There are (at least)2 aspects to marriage, the emotional and the business. Don't try to solve the emotional issues with the business/money part. Using money to try and teach her a lesson won't work. It won't make her respect you. You can't make anyone respect anything. You can scare the heck out of them, but that's not respect.

Hi labug,

Sorry if I did not answer. Yes, the vast majority of her cc bills are family. Hence my feeling of obligation to pay them. My hesitation to pay them immediately stems from that I also have a huge amount of family bills to pay for. For every $10 of bills I have to pay, I have about $4 to pay them with. This has been the case for a couple of years. In the past I have ALWAYS paid her bills first. (please do not latch on to my terminology of hers/mine...ultimately they are family expenses, I am just identifying ownership of the names on the bills). I did this to protect her credit. The bills which were paid late, or not at all were those under my name. My credit is shot.

Yes, my wife has filed D, but she has not served me. So I am under no legal obligation at this point to do anything. We have no separation agreement. We had worked one out prior to our S where I would have made sure she had the money to pay any bill under her name. This was predicated on our cooperating when filling out the D papers to ensure we had an uncontested divorce. When she filed her D papers, she had the assistance of a L who wrote the petition in a nasty manner. Because of this, I told her I would not be able to pay the bills I had previously agreed to because of the impact it would have since we would now have a contested D.

The state we live in is a community property state. Which means assets and debts are divided equally. Since most of the assets were put in her name, and most of the debt was in my name, I gain an advantage of leverage during any negotiating should the D proceed. It was my intention that during the S, I was going to file Chapt 7 bankruptcy. However, my bankruptcy L advised me to wait until after the D to file Chapt 7...because of the leverage I had with the debt.

I really appreciate the perspective of the 2 aspects of divorce...emotional and business. I had not looked at it in that way before. Ultimately should the D proceed and come through, I fully expect and plan to pay those bills she carries. My leverage is mainly a tool to ensure the best chances of me being able to locate in an area where I have the best opportunity to restore my financial wellbeing, and ensure the kids will be living nearby.

So back to the original question, it is not that I plan on NOT paying them, it is more a question of timing. I am working 2 jobs now. My objections rise from the continuation of ensuring the bills in her name are paid on time at the expense of repairing my own financial situation. In other words, what I SHOULD do is take the bills she has to pay, put them in the pile of the bills I am paying, and they get paid as the money comes available. If they end up being paid late, then they are late just like mine. No more preferential treatment.

Does that make more sense?

Thanks again for following my S. Your advice and input is ALWAYS welcome!

[labug]

Thanks for the honest response.

So I am under no legal obligation at this point to do anything.

Not true. You clearly are but I get your point about which bills you pay first. If you're entering bankruptcy, it's moot, I guess. Does your W know you'll be filing bankruptcy?

Is she working now?

(L) wrote the petition in a nasty manner.

What does that mean? Forget the language, were the terms unreasonable?

[pilot]

Yes, I had discussed my plan on filing Chapt 7 with W prior to our S. It is my understanding she is working. But that came from my dad who said she had put a place of employment under her FB status. I have never done anything to verify whether or not she is working. She is living at her parents so her bills would be minimal.

Nasty language aside, the terms were ridiculous and very unreasonable. I understand why it was written the way it was. You shoot for the stars and hope you hit the moon at the end of the day. However, because of this, IF/WHEN I have to file a reply, it will also have to be in a fashion where I go way out in my own favor. Ultimately I am pretty certain of where it will end up. But if I start from that point, I will only end up drifting more towards her petition in any negotiations. Paying all the bills under her name is one of the conditions. While not unreasonable, if I concede those now, I lose the ability to negotiate them in the future.

[labug]

and so the die is cast.

[pilot]

what do you mean by that?

[labug]

You've entered into this with an adversarial mindset. In D things will be split pretty much equitably as far as assets, no matter how much you negotiate. I've seen it here many times and IRL, people spend 1000s on attys just to get $1000 moved to their side of the ledger. In most cases it's not the money, it's pride and wanting to teach the other a lesson.

Think of her as a business partner, what's your bottom line? When you remove the emotion and the sentiment and look at what you have as just assets, how much of it is worth spending more in atty's fees. You haven't been married long.

Please don't think I'm suggesting you give away the farm, but if you're going into bk, doesn't sound like you have a farm to give away. What was unreasonable about the original terms? Was it really the terms or the language? How it made you feel? It's all just words.

Even tho I didn't get D, I had to ask myself all these same questions. It's difficult but it's doable.

[labug]

Just to add to the above, when we were contemplating D, I wanted everything and I wanted to teach my H a lesson. I was hurt and I wanted to hurt him. My thought process was, "You left me, so everything should be mine now." All emotion driven and would have led to a lot of heartache and lost $$$$ had I stayed on that track.

When I was able to see that and step back from it, things got easier.

[pilot]

labug,

An example of something unreasonable she is asking for is she wants to be compensated for her 'marital contribution' to our airplane. Since our airplane is owned under an LLC (strictly for liability protection...I am the sole member) her belief is that she is owed half of everything that has ever been spent on the airplane since we were married. Which would come out to about $100k for her.

You are correct. I have no farm to give away any more. I have not spent $1 on a L yet because 1) I do not have $1 to spend, and 2) Unless the kids become an issue, there really is nothing to fight over.

I probably do have an adversarial mindset when it comes to D, because that is exactly what a D is. I have spent hundreds of thousands in L fees over the years for many different lawsuits (on both sides) so I am fully aware of just how adversarial lawsuits can be. A D is no different...it is a lawsuit. My initial gut reaction when she filed the D was extremely adversarial, I will admit. However, since finding this site, and reading DB and DR as well as forums here, I have decided I will do nothing towards the D. I have not been served yet, and in our state, that means nothing has happened 'to' me yet. I have no responsibility to do anything. Legally it is as if we are still married and D has never entered the picture. IF/WHEN she serves me, then things change. She has 120 days from the time she filed (late May) to serve me, otherwise it gets dismissed. She has not said a word about D since our S began.

My reluctance to pay for anything while S stems from a defensive posture. IF I pay the cc bills under her name while S, and our D proceeds in front of a judge, I would be very hard pressed to argue I was unable to pay them if I was already paying them. I had already explained all of this to my W while we were planning our S prior to her filing. And by not paying them, my intent is not to be an ahole. My intent is to provide for my family FIRST. Until I get my financial house back in order, money is in short supply. After a D, my family is myself and my kids. So I want to be able to devote as much resources to the family. If W gets stuck with bills that drain her resources after D, well, that is not really a concern of mine after a D.

Bottom line is I have no idea where her mindset is right now. I really have not spent much time thinking about it to be honest. Her attitude has warmed significantly towards me, that is a given. She is showing much more initiative to interact with me than prior to S. She has even 'caved' on her hardline of moving back to where we lived prior to our S and seems fine with moving to the area I will be living. While these events do not mean a R is around the corner, they are positive signs. So I want to protect my steps forward, but I also want to protect myself should the D continue.

I get what you are saying, and I am extremely appreciative of your time to convey your thoughts. A big problem with expressing oneself on a median such as this as at lot of times our thoughts come out as 1 dimensional...or we state something and that becomes the narrative of our thinking. While it may seem that way for myself in a lot of instances, rest assured I am just as conflicted about my actions (past, present, and future) as the next person!