This post, Wonka, is really helping me turn my thinking "inward."
And you know what just kinda "snapped" up in my noggin?
Part (A majority?) of this struggle may really be less about my H ... and more about ME.
*I* am the one who let myself go as a SAHM, which caused a huge hit in the confidence-department. I have power over that. I can choose not to let myself go. I can choose to keep myself healthy and fit. And H and I *are* going on dates now, and that gives me chances to pretty myself up a little and spend some time with him. I can choose to get out in the sunshine a little with my kids instead of staying all cooped up. There ARE plenty of volunteer opportunities out there. In fact, S8 and I will be volunteering for the homeless shelter as part of our "Christmas Around the World" studies in November and December.
I mean, I still freak out a little at the prospect of H leaving us high-and-dry again, with me having no income.
BUT, as long as we are actively working on ourselves and our M - and I'm keeping my finger on the pulse of our M - I shouldn't have to have that fear so prevalent in my mind anymore.
And, there ARE ways I can make money if I want to *right now*. They're all just so "domestic" feeling, which leaves sort of a "busting-balls" void in my life.
I've thought about freelancing again - and even recently had the opportunity to do so - but I feel that chapter of my life is over. I'm not sure I would enjoy it anymore.
I'll keep perusing part-time/at-home jobs that may give me my fix in that regard. I can even take the LSAT later this year just to see how I do. It doesn't mean I'm committing to anything. And I'll talk to H, too, and really strive to put it all out there. (But I'll probably wait a little while; the poor fella was diagnosed with a small hernia just yesterday, so we've got some bigger-than-small things on the ol' plate right now. Yikes.)
Thank you, as always, Wonka. <3
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
I went to court today with my sister to be a witness in her uncontested D. Husband number 2. I was basically just there to say, "Yes, Your Honor, they've been separated a year. No, sir. There's no hope for reconciliation here."
I sat there and watched as couples sat together, angry or disinterested. One couple in particular had a lawyer sitting between them. I later overheard the H say: "there's nothing happy about this situation." And the W scoffed and said: "We never should have gotten married. We knew it wasn't right. I was outside the church doors and said, 'I don't want to go through with this.' But he said, 'Well, we have to. We've already filled out the paperwork'."
A judge asked a couple questions and signed the divorce decree. It took 15 minutes.
15 minutes?!?
15 MINUTES!!!!
Guys, I can't tell y'all how surreal it was for me to sit there and watch that. Sad. Marriages broken. Families destroyed. Just like that.
It made me appreciate these boards, and all you people, that much more. I mean, even if the Ms here don't work out in the end, the fact that there are people out there like you guys who are willing to fight so hard, and for so long, for Ms and families is really quite awe-inspiring and inspirational.
Just wanted to let you know I thought of you all today, and my hat's off to ALL of us here.
But now that I have you on the hook, I want opinions (I know, I know, you're all likely thinking: Here's ol' Train and one of her "questions" again); lol:
What, to you, does forgiveness look like? What does it mean? Is it a verb/an action? Is it FEELING the pain of an A, for example ... but never mentioning it again? Never holding it over the XWAS's head? Does it mean never bringing up bad things someone has done to us, even if those things still cause us to hurt?
I know forgiveness is mostly for the person who *offers* it. But what is forgiveness, really?
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
To me, forgiveness is realizing that as "black-and-white" as I saw my wife's transgression against me as being, I have my own shortcomings . . . they are just in OTHER areas. That doesn't make me any better . . . or any worse.
It's the whole "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" thing.
So to me, forgiveness in my marriage means walking humbly in constant awareness that Starsky ain't all that either.
So that's part of it.
The other part is this TOTALLY humbling realization of, "If GOD HIMSELF -- THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE -- didn't give up on my marriage . . . who the frick was *I* to? I saw things -- and still do! -- that show He is fighting for my family, so I just kinda figure "Who am I to do any less?"
But to answer your question, I do think it's a DECISION . . . or even an OBEDIENCE (to God) thing. The feelings will then follow, in time -- at least they did for me.
I found this to be the most helpful article on forgiveness that I've ever read --
Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself By Michele Weiner-Davis
Are you someone who walks around feeling angry with your spouse or loved one much of the time? Do you have a little inner voice that constantly reminds you of all of his or her wrongdoings? Have you become expert at remembering all the minute details of past injustices just so that you can keep score? If this describes you at all, you better read what I'm about to say and take it to heart.
Lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner's insensitive behavior, you still are miserable. When you wake up each morning, a gray tint shadows your life. You walk around with a low-grade depression. You can't feel joy because you're too busy being angry or feeling disappointed.
In the face of these fairly obvious disadvantages, you hang on to your belief that, since you feel let down, you must not "give in." To you, giving in means forgiving, letting go, making peace. To do so, would be tantamount to giving up your soul. So, you keep your distance. You interact in perfunctory ways, never allowing your partner to step over the emotional line you've drawn. And though the distance often feels intolerable, forgiveness is not on your short list of solutions to your dilemma.
I have worked with so many couples who say they want to heal their relationships. And yet, when they're offered the tools, they can't seem to move forward. These are the couples who, instead of finding effective ways to get beyond blame, continue to repeat their mantra, "Our problems are your fault and you must pay." As long as they maintain this mindset, they are doomed to failure. How very sad. Even sadder are their children who, on a day-by-day basis observe their parents being "right" but "miserable." What lessons are they learning about love?
If any of this strikes a chord with you (and you wouldn't be reading this if it didn't), you need to internalize that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of resentment can set you free. It can bring more love and happiness into your life. It opens the door to intimacy and connection. It makes you feel whole. Forgiving others takes strength, particularly when you feel wronged, but the fortitude required to forgive pales in comparison to the energy necessary to maintain a sizable grudge. The person most hurt by holding out or blaming is YOU, no matter what the circumstances.
"All this sounds good," you tell yourself, "but how can I ever forget what my partner did to me?" Good question. You don't! Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. You will probably always remember the particular injustice(s) that drove you into your corner. But what will happen is that when you forgive, the intense emotions associated with the event(s) begin to fade. You will feel happier, lighter, more loving. And these renewed positive feelings won't go unnoticed. Others will be drawn to you.
Just keep in mind that forgiveness isn't a feeling. It is a decision. You decide that you are going to start tomorrow with a clean slate. Even if it isn't easy, you make the determination that the alternative is even harder, and that you are going to do what you must to begin creating a more positive future.
So promise yourself, that no matter what the reason, you will not go another day blaming your partner and feeling lonely. Make peace. Make up. Make love. I promise you that the benefits of deciding to forgive go far beyond anything you can picture in your mind's eye at the moment. Your decision to forgive will create a ripple effect of exponential changes in your life.
Train, for me forgiveness is a decision. It is bring joy and love into your heart and moving forward. As Starsky said, we all make mistakes. While we may look at someone who has an A as making the biggest mistake of his or her life, in reality, they may see things that we did to be just as bad. I am not saying that they are and that we are not to blame when someone has an A, but none of us our perfect.
I also think life is too short and we all need to forgive and move on. Holding on to grudges is dangerous for your help and soul.
I think in the case of the Ds that you witnessed, I am not sure whether or not a lack of forgiveness was the root cause. I see it as one or both spouses just not deciding to work at marriage. I believe that any M can be awesome through W. But not if one spouse does not want to be married.
I feel good/better when I bring God's love into my heart and view the world with that lens. I pray that my W makes the decision to work on our M. That is all that I can do. But I already have forgiven her. I just cannot go through life holding onto a grudge.
Me: 40, W: 40 M: 15, T: 18 D - 10, S - 7 D announcement 6/7/2014 A discovered 7/20/2014 (but denied by W) Still living together and sharing same bed
train, I just wanted to say I just re read all your threads and you are amazing, some of your story seems so similar to mine and I'm trying to see how you got to where you and your h are now. my h seems so entrenched with the ow, that I can't see sometimes that it will ever end, but then I see how your sitch changed so dramatically so quickly, perhaps if you have time could you have a look at my sitch and see what think. Thank you
Thank you guys so much for chiming in with your own experiences and thoughts.
Really loved this, Starsky: To me, forgiveness is realizing that as "black-and-white" as I saw my wife's transgression against me as being, I have my own shortcomings . . . they are just in OTHER areas. That doesn't make me any better . . . or any worse.
I've always been the type of person who looks at MY role in a disagreement/relationship breakdown before looking at the other person's contributions. Granting forgiveness has, then, always been pretty easy for me. In fact, sometimes, I've been accused of giving it too freely. I just don't want to hold grudges. What's the point of living with that kind of anger? At the same time, being "too" forgiving, I guess, could suggest other issues, like conflict-avoidant stuff ... or codependency.
I just brought the question up because it's something about which I had a discussion with a friend this week. She asked if I had forgiven H. And I had to say, "I don't know." I don't even know what it looks like to forgive ... or to NOT forgive someone ... I guess.
I've identified what/where I screwed up. I continue to work on myself and my responses/reactions. I'm not shoving what happened down H's throat; in fact, on the rare occasions we talk about it, the conversations are very civil and quite productive, with both of us sharing turns to speak ... and neither getting frustrated to the point of shutting down or playing a blame game.
I'm having trouble moving forward with his family, which is likely going to cause some awkwardness and friction. H and I had a chat earlier this week about that. My teenage girls don't want to visit them, 8 hours away, when the rest of the family is going. And I confided in my H that I will feel very awkward being there, but obviously I'd still go.
His parents and I had a little falling-out just before I discovered how in-depth H's PA had become. His dad, on a phone conversation with me (while MIL was listening in on another line), was trying to help and point-out the different roles H and I both had played in the breakdown of our M. He essentially told me I placed my kids as a priority over H. (Which is true.) He mentioned that H and I weren't sleeping together. (Which is true.) And then went a little further and said, "When a farmer's field dries up, the farmer moves to a different field." THEN, he started talking about how attractive of a woman I am, going on and on about one of my bridal pictures. And then followed that up with: "But, you know, you have a tendency to let yourself go. You wear sweatpants and t-shirts, and, frankly, that makes you unattractive." I bit my tongue. And then, after finding H's texts with OW, flew way off the handle with his parents, asking why - if a farmer notices his field is drying up - he wouldn't think to water his own d@mn field before buying a different one. I asked if they thought my SAHM pony-tailed hair and my make-up (or lack thereof) meant I deserved my H sending a text to his new love interest, asking if she'd like him to "f--- the sh!t out of her in Train's bed."
Their feelings were hurt because it's the first time they've ever seen "that" side of Train. But I had a lot of left-over resentment from 2005/06, when they not only abandoned ME when H left, but also my unborn son ... and then they moved back into our lives, nary a word said, when H and I reconciled back then.
This time, they tried to remain present in my life, and the kids' lives, mainly through e-mail because they live several hours away. But when they visited for a weekend - supposedly to see with their own eyes that everyone was okay (and a special emphasis on my teenage DDs) - they really didn't hang much with us. They (and H) took the little kids for a day. Said "hello," essentially, to the big girls and me, and that was about it.
I found out later that MIL was trying to help H outfit his apartment. I guess it seems they really just rallied behind him. And when H came home, he told me he was flabbergasted that his parents would tell him that they support him no matter what.
I understand it, don't get me wrong. But I don't think I could use the word "support" if I were the parent of a child who had walked away from his M and family - twice. I will LOVE my kids unconditionally. But support them "no matter what"? Nope. Don't think so. I don't support them when they make a C in a class in which they've made As and Bs all year; I certainly wouldn't support them creating a family and walking away from it for grass they think is greener. I would love them no matter what. But I wouldn't support them no matter what. And I doubt I'd help them outfit their new apartments.
Since H and I have been piecing, I haven't heard from his parents except for once, I think, when his mom called about birthday-gift ideas and just said, "You're somethin' else, Train, to take him back after all that." They call H every Sunday, but they don't speak to the kids or to me. I *did* apologize to his parents, shortly after I flew off the handle. I asked them to TRY to understand my position: I felt my appearance and my relationship with my kids was being blamed for H cheating. At that point, I was looking for ANY help from any of them since H has no family around here. (It's before I re-joined the boards.) Fact is: our families just operate so incredibly differently.
H got upset during our convo about it the other night; he *seemed* more upset about the fact that his family has hurt DDs and me - again. And he said he blames himself "because they act this way due to the trash I talked about you when I was doing what I was doing." He said he would "handle" it, but I actually asked him not to. I told him I wasn't asking for him to jump in and fix anything. I was just picking his brain about how, or if, *I* should handle anything with them to make our FAMILY transition a little more smooth, especially when DD16&17 want little or nothing to do with his family now. (It was hard enough watching them struggle to accept H back into the fold; they're still working hard on it.)
So, wow. I just vented way off in left field, didn't I?
All that to say: assuming I'm understanding the concept of forgiveness, I feel I am working toward forgiving H (though it's MUCH harder this time, with it being the second time he has betrayed me). I'm not sure why I'm having a more difficult time forgiving his parents. Maybe because we haven't put any "work" into repairing our relationship. And, to be frank, we probably won't.
Add all that together - and stick it in the same week as I'm sitting in a courtroom, watching families be destroyed - and it's just been a pretty emotionally-draining week.
I'll just never be able to resolve in my mind how things as precious as families can be destroyed so quickly. But *I* need to figure out what forgiveness is ... and work on forgiving people. Including myself.
watto, I'll take a look on your thread, for sure! I don't post much (unless I feel I have something worthwhile to add). But I'll keep an eye out!
Thanks again, y'all!
M: 40 H: 44 Married 14 years S11 & D6; D20 & D19 from previous M 2BDs/PAs, 8 years apart Piecing: April 2014
