Sex was great, part 2

[Grey]

It looks like my original thread hit its limit;

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...450#Post2461450


In any case, I would still love to find more information and any advice.

Meanwhile, there seems to be a prevalent assumption here that I'm simply still doing something wrong. I don't know how to convince anyone on that, and ironically I'm not even sure if my wife could either, no matter how close to the truth it might be.

Maybe it's because if you were doing everything right, you'd be getting better results?

DBing is all about "Do what works," at its core. So the corollary to that would be "If it's NOT working, do something different" . . . no?


Starsky

Exactly. Because it's her end, right? I mean, isn't that the point?

Let's put it bluntly; my wife is happy with our marriage except that she doesn't have a libido, and that's my only real concern as well.

The trick isn't to say that I'm not giving enough x or showing enough y, I get the argument except that I can't convince some people that I'm doing enough of those things, and otherwise it becomes, "if you were doing everything right she'd have a stronger libido than you."

That's just not it. And not even based on what I say, but on what she says, which is at least as important if not more important.

So again, just take it at face value, is it even possible to assume everything is good and I'm not drastically missing one of her basic, important needs? All I want to do is figure out how to deal with the stress of having a sexless marriage, no matter how temporary (because it can be difficult every day), and now I also want to figure out how best to bring up anything I could talk to her about for her to LEARN what she might need to do to get back whatever it is she's missing.

For example, what if a book, any book including any of Michele's books, could have a profound revelation for my wife, good or bad? My best assumption is it would be good, but it would at least be something, right? And something does help.

But I obviously can't say, "hey, here's this book I think you'll like..."

She might like it. She might love it. But I can't get her really interested in trying without making it feel like I'm pressuring her. I get that, so I stay out of it, but she's not internally motivated to really look online, or read, or ask around, or see another doctor, or anything that might give her more knowledge about what's going on and perhaps how to address it, even if it's to tell me she understands that I want to have sex and to communicate why she can't or doesn't want to. See, it's not simply about sex, it's just that the evolution of our relationship seems stalled on her end, not even through any deliberate choice but perhaps through naivety.

I mean, I can't help but imagine, especially when I'm awake at night feeling alone, what it might be like IF we both could talk about any of these books that I've done so much reading and research on and that she is all but unaware of, does that make more sense? At least then we'd both know more, but instead I have a hard time bringing it up at all (no, I don't ever come out and say or ask why we're not having sex since the first time I asked well over a month ago) because I am afraid it will feel like pressure BECAUSE I think we both know everything else is ok------think about it, what IF all her needs actually are being met, and all of mine but sex are being met? Just assume it's possible---------so then when she starts investigating this issue, how can she NOT feel like she's being told simply to have sex with her husband? Michele even says it herself, and it's not that I think it's bad advice, it's that IF there are no other issues and not having sex is an outlier, the realization of that point instantly gives sex a stigma all over again, doesn't it?

Does that make more sense why I'm afraid I'm not even supposed to talk about anything? I'm making her dinner tonight and I've planned us to talk, not about this, but JUST to talk, for at least an hour, just us, then we're watching a movie called "Enough Said." I called her today on my way back to work from a meeting, which she loves. She used my credit card to buy gas this afternoon. I'm not EXPECTING anything, I just want to make sure it's clear that 1.) I'm doing the best I know how (and I sincerely believe meeting all of her needs from my end) and 2.) I'm still keeping quiet about it.

I just have a hard time and don't know how other people deal. Like, the more books I read, the more I realize things I don't just already know, but things I've already been doing so long that they're good habits, including romantic affection and time. And as I read more, I realize how unaware she must be of the things I'm reading about, only I can't deliberately introduce to her, right? It's so tricky, all while struggling with a desire to ML with my wife.

[Cadet]

It's interesting to think about how people would respond if she was here to put in her point of view. But she's not depressed. Let's start with that.

Talked to her more last night just about that part, it does have more to do with her diabetic pain, plus other diabetic issues she's pending for seeing an endocrinologist to address the hormone side.

Of course, they can't see her for at least another month.



I'm just going to state this again to see if it holds, just for the sake of the argument to see what the next step I need to take should be; Our marriage is very good, my wife is very happy, she just doesn't want to have sex. She's too tired, now from Cymbalta adding to it much worse, for example.

So she is taking an antidepressant and you are saying she is not depressed?

How do you know this?

I am with goatgal on this one, go back and re-read her post it was excellent I thought.
Don't brush that off.

[Grey]

It's interesting to think about how people would respond if she was here to put in her point of view. But she's not depressed. Let's start with that.

Talked to her more last night just about that part, it does have more to do with her diabetic pain, plus other diabetic issues she's pending for seeing an endocrinologist to address the hormone side.

Of course, they can't see her for at least another month.



I'm just going to state this again to see if it holds, just for the sake of the argument to see what the next step I need to take should be; Our marriage is very good, my wife is very happy, she just doesn't want to have sex. She's too tired, now from Cymbalta adding to it much worse, for example.

So she is taking an antidepressant and you are saying she is not depressed?

How do you know this?

I am with goatgal on this one, go back and re-read her post it was excellent I thought.
Don't brush that off.

No, I'm saying exactly what she told me, and what her doctor said.

Yes, she's taking Cymbalta now, but no, not explicitly for clinical depression, not at all. She's taking it for physical pain (among other pills for the same pain). The doctor said it would have a "side effect of a mood enhancer," but that it was prescribed explicitly for her foot pain in particular, both as a result of cancer 5 years ago and diabetes.

Brushing people off? Is that how I sound? I apologize; I certainly don't mean to be rude, merely I want to make sure I'm getting the point across when I leave something out and the conclusion results in being different from the actual circumstances.

I'm not trying to be defensive by saying she's not depressed, but rather I'm trying to make clear what the situation is. I'm not sure if she and her doctor both saying here that she's not depressed would change anyone's mind simply because he precribed her Cymbalta but, well, here we are.

If anything else, the negative side effects, particularly sleepiness, so far seems to be doing more harm than good. Nothing ever really eliminates her foot pain----most of the medicine is just to keep it at bay (if she forgets it for too many days, like on vacation one weekend, the pain is crippling). Cymbalta is a non-opiate and I think that's one of the reasons it gets looked at, particularly for this specific type of pain.

I understand the idea that depression might be why a wife would lose libido, and I don't mean to sound abrasive, but my wife is not depressed. I'm not sure I could ever really change anyone's mind here on that, but take my word for it just for argument's sake to see if there is any more advice or solutions we can work on in the meantime.

[Ben2010]

I can tell you that I have been depressed for years and hiding it pretty well from people because I disagreed with taking Paxil which had sexual side effects. I had to go to the doctor recently to get this treated and he prescribed Wellbutrin. Its an anti-depressant with a great side effect for you 2. It also increased libido which I can attest to. Im told that Zoloft does something similar too. Just throwing that out there.

On another note, if you want her to read a book of some kind, why dont you just order one and read it yourself. So you can understand what might be going on. If she wants to read it or sees that maybe youre learning from it maybe she will read it too.

With that being said I would agree that it sounds like you might be a little overly concerned with sex instead of your wife's health. Im not trying to put you down, just saying that it isnt a life or death thing not having sex for a bit.

[sandi2]

Gray, I had typed this up and then the thread locked, so I hope it's not something repeated. , We hear the frustration in your posts. Please don't feel under attack b/c people here want to help you.

I'm not trying to be insensitive, but I have to ask......did you really think through what life may hold by M an older woman? Plus, these particular physical issues (Diabetes, hysterectomy, cancer, etc.) ages a woman much faster than one who doesn't have it.

Cymbolta does not affect everyone with low libido. From what I've read, only about one percent of female patients experience it. It is usually prescribed for people who live with pain every day. If I had to choose between suffering with neuropathy or having a lower libido, I would take the Cymbolta. In fact, I did.

I really hope you can get your focus off the AD med, b/c the problem was there before she started taking it. And, she's just recently started, right?

My suggestion is that she go to a specialist in hormone balancing. It is much, much more involved than checking her lack of estrogen. They can do test to see exactly what her body is deficient in, instead of guess work. It could be anything from not enough thyroid hormones, adrenal fatigue, fibromyalgia.....just to name three I know about that all which have symptoms of low energy and fatigue. They can help with low libido, too!

I have heard it puts a lot of pressure on a woman being M to a much younger man. She may not feel comfortable discussing some things. She may fear it would drive you away, IDK. Just as a guess, she probably is wondering why she's changed and feels this way, and concerned how you could see her in the near future.

You told of a recent night of LM and how great it was. But it didn't seem to help. You count the days or weeks, but aren't you leaving that night out? IDK, maybe I missed something. If there is not anything physically causing the problem, I think you have little option except to question your own smothering methods. We women love romance, but frankly, I wouldn't want my H to just keep on and on with the touch-feely stuff, following me around wanting my undivided attention (especially sexually) or trying to please me every minute. Not every single night! The romance starts to fizzle when you over-kill. That is why it was suggested backing off and getting involved in something besides her. Or hang out with her, but don't make it be this love-slave scenario.

Each of you need things independent from each other & work. You said you basically gave up your friends and your activities for hers. But it may not be so attractive to your W if she feels you are co-dependent. If you announce that you're going somewhere so she can have space, it will make you even less attractive, so just truly find something to enjoy part of the time. Then when you try to be romantic, her fires will be lit more easily.

You know, most of us love sweets. But we need to include other things or it can make us very sick after a while.

[GoatGal]

"GG,

I see you are an 9 year age gap with you the younger. I was wondering how that is working out and if there is any points of contention?

Thanks.

For all the sexless my only question is when you are near your deathbed, do you want to look back on your life and realize your spouse or long term relation partner "blocked" you from X years of a descent sex and intimacy in life or not?"

Not to hijack Grey's thread, but here's my answer.

I tolerated almost 30 years of a less-than-satisfactory sex life with my older husband because I LOVED HIM and took the good with the bad.
I knew he had "issues" that had nothing to do with me, and accepted that he had a lower drive, and some problems with being emotionally available on an intimate level.

One of the reasons I come off so angry here at times is that I found out that he has had a long-term relationship with porn SINCE BEFORE WE EVEN MET, which he preferred to indulge rather than being with me. My needs came second. This was hard to accept.

On top of that, when I would no longer submit to his "pornified" version of non-emotional lovemaking, saying that I was completely available to him, but that I didn't want to be treated like a blow-up doll or some porn actress one minute longer, he completely shut down on me, eventually finding some needy young woman who was willing to be used by him in that way.

(At the time, I didn't realize that was what was happening, I assumed all that he told me, low testosterone, stress at work, the usual excuses. And I didn't push the issue. I was going through menopause and often ML was the last thing on my mind, not because I didn't want to, but I was tired, sweaty, didn't sleep well, irritable. Like PMS all the time. That is mostly over now. But at that point I needed more than just the "same-old" that passed for ML for so many years. He wasn't willing to give that and I wasn't willing to keep trying.)

All the while I was loyal, loving, and put my desires on the back burner out of love and loyalty. I finally gave up. He didn't want to talk about it and he didn't want to deal with it.

Why that's relevant is because I felt I had a good marriage even with the sporadic and often unemotional sex. We had other things that made up for that. (I thought.) I felt like I was the one who made all the concessions while he had all these "rules". (When, where, how, how often....)

I could have lived the rest of my life not knowing that he cheated on me, or turned his back on me to visit Pornland several times a week, while leading me to believe he just had a "low sex drive" all these years.

And he waited until I went through menopause to mention how "unhappy" he was and how he felt I was "never attractive" to him. (Really? Why did he go out with me for six years, then eventually marry and stay with me for 22+ more?)

Love can overcome a lot of things.
I accepted it. I accepted who he was.
I believed he was DOING THE BEST HE COULD.

What upset me was not that he couldn't do BETTER, it was that he was NOT giving me what I deserved as his wife, and he was lying to me about it.

If it was really a case of sexual dysfunction over which he had no control, I would have been OK with that, as I have been all these years. Again, I love the guy.

That's why I keep getting on Grey's case!


PS: Don't believe that porn doesn't destroy marriages when it takes over. It absolutely DOES.

--GG

[adinva]

I think the best thing you could do, Grey, is step back from this site, put down all the books, stop thinking about trying to get her to change, and just roll with what is happening. For a good long while, like 6 months. See where it goes, let her set the pace or lack thereof, and plan on probably having no sex for 6 months.

Your anxiety seems to be driven by looking ahead to predict the future. If you can just let it go for 6 months, maybe that will give her the space and comfort to relax and figure things out.

But get busy during the 6 months, being an independent interesting person who is not consumed by thoughts of how to be uberhusband and how to get her to change her libido. RELAX.

The grip you have on this issue is probably going to hurt you in the long run.

In 6 months, if you haven't brought it up one single time, and if you've been interesting and independent and fulfilled, then I think you could ask if you could listen to each other about the topic of sex and see how each other feels about it.

[Grey]

I think the best thing you could do, Grey, is step back from this site, put down all the books, stop thinking about trying to get her to change, and just roll with what is happening. For a good long while, like 6 months. See where it goes, let her set the pace or lack thereof, and plan on probably having no sex for 6 months.

Your anxiety seems to be driven by looking ahead to predict the future. If you can just let it go for 6 months, maybe that will give her the space and comfort to relax and figure things out.

But get busy during the 6 months, being an independent interesting person who is not consumed by thoughts of how to be uberhusband and how to get her to change her libido. RELAX.

The grip you have on this issue is probably going to hurt you in the long run.

In 6 months, if you haven't brought it up one single time, and if you've been interesting and independent and fulfilled, then I think you could ask if you could listen to each other about the topic of sex and see how each other feels about it.

6 months?

I don't think not WANTING to wait 6 months to have sex again means I don't love my wife.

Maybe you're right. Maybe what we had before we were married with all the sex was an illusion and I can't handle it and we weren't meant to be together-------no matter how happy she is, and she truly is, I still want to have sex with my wife and she doesn't want sex now that she's married. Kinda makes me wish we just kept dating forever instead of marrying now when you put it like that.

[GoatGal]

Grey,

I don't think Adinva meant that you should stop "wanting" it for six months.
That ain't gonna happen!

I think what she meant was---and I agree--- all the things you're doing to "fix" it HAVE NOT HELPED.

You don't even know what the problem IS.

You're very fixated on your own needs, no matter what.

Now it sounds like you're ready to hang it up based on PURE SPECULATION on your part.


The fact is, you have NO IDEA what your wife is really thinking or going through.

And until you calm down enough to allow her to open up to you,
YOU ARE MAKING THE SITUATION WORSE.


If you want to believe you're "not meant to be together" because your wife is going through something and you guess that it was just "getting married" that broke your awesome sex life prior, then go ahead and base your actions on that.

I'm pretty sure you'll regret that one.

That is, if you really love your WIFE, not just what she does for you or how she makes you feel..


--GG

[Grey]

Grey,

I don't think Adinva meant that you should stop "wanting" it for six months.
That ain't gonna happen!

I think what she meant was---and I agree--- all the things you're doing to "fix" it HAVE NOT HELPED.

You don't even know what the problem IS.

You're very fixated on your own needs, no matter what.

Now it sounds like you're ready to hang it up based on PURE SPECULATION on your part.


The fact is, you have NO IDEA what your wife is really thinking or going through.

And until you calm down enough to allow her to open up to you,
YOU ARE MAKING THE SITUATION WORSE.


If you want to believe you're "not meant to be together" because your wife is going through something and you guess that it was just "getting married" that broke your awesome sex life prior, then go ahead and base your actions on that.

I'm pretty sure you'll regret that one.

That is, if you really love your WIFE, not just what she does for you or how she makes you feel..


--GG

But I haven't done anything to "fix" it.

You have to understand, I brought it up once. ONCE. After feeling so incredibly lonely and losing sleep every night for weeks.


In the meantime, everything I was doing right as a partner I've been reaffirmed or adjusted to be even better at thanks to the books I've been reading and my own therapy.

I don't understand. I'm not "fixated" on my own needs so much as I come here for support and advice for the one need that is incredibly important to me that I can't talk to my wife about because she doesn't want it and feels "pressured" when I did bring it up once. I mean, I don't understand the logic--------forget my needs? I CAN'T stop wanting sex. I wish I could.

But that seems inherently unfair. After all, I'm not stopping doing my part to meet her needs, even exceeding them. I'm not a jerk about MY NEEDS not being met, but I have to accept that marriage isn't 50-50 and keep being nice about it? Is Michele really that wrong about people wanting to have sex with a partner who had plenty of sex before they married?

I don't think it's fair to say I have "NO IDEA" what my wife is going through. We talk about it, and she's seen doctors, and I at least have SOME idea what she's going through.

We were out this weekend, again out past 3 AM which she finds the energy for when she wants to "party," and a friend of ours, a psychologist no less, is going through menopause. She was having hot flashes. We talked about what it's like and how it affects her and how long it's been going on. To say that my wife doesn't experience any of the symptoms of menopause (as a result of already having gone through it) has to mean I have at least some idea about what my wife is or isn't going through.

And meanwhile, what am I going through? I keep hearing my needs don't matter, that's all it sounds like. I can't imagine anyone ever asking any one of my wife's needs to "wait for six months because you love him anyway," know what I mean?

I DO love my wife. And not being wanted to have sex HURTS. It hurts. It [censored]. Six months of being happy without sex and suppressing my needs for sex (and praying every night I don't have another wet dream) sounds like changing the marriage to a permanently sexless marriage. After all, what happens if I bring up sex in six months? That's a very long time----I can't imagine the pressure that would put on her just to bring it up. "Hey honey, Christmas is almost here, remember how I like sex and promised not to have sex with anyone else ever again? Our first anniversary was 12 weeks ago but I waited this long to ask anyway."

I'm frustrated. I come here, ONLY here, to talk about my wanting to have sex with my wife. I DO NOT let it affect my actions at home. If nothing else this place is my outlet so that I don't have to worry about doing any/all of the things I know NOT to do from Michele's books, like be resentful or mean or stop doing all the good things I do just because I feel unwanted as a result of my wife losing sexual interest in me. When people say I need to calm down or I'm making it worse at home, not only do I have to disagree, but I feel compelled to explain that my wife would argue our marriage has gotten BETTER in the last 8 weeks because of my actions, not worse. Try to think of it that way, then try to understand my position.

Again, I can't do anything, that's what it feels like. I have to supress my desires and put on a happy face. I can do that. But six months? That makes it sound like I'm agreeing to getting used to a completely sexless marriage. I wish I could say I can make myself not want to have sex with my wife, but not only do I think that's not possible, I don't even think that's healthy.

Then again, feeling alone and rejected for another six months isn't healthy, either.

Listen, I've gotten better about not feeling so rejected by a sexless marriage. It's true, believe it or not. I don't stay up the entire night worrying about how painful it is. And it's only been 3 months. After 9 months of working on it like I have been, won't I just be conditioning myself to abandon my wants and needs? Is there any point where I am ok to ask for my needs to be considered? What if that need was going to church every week? I'm sure asking my wife to church would make her feel pressured because she doesn't want to go, but I don't know how selfish people would see me as for that versus my passion to be physical with this gorgeous woman who was so physical for so long until all of a sudden it stopped.

My wife makes me feel good, to answer your question. But sex is healthy. It's good for you. I want it. I'm the only LTR she's turned down for it and that exascerbates the pain of it vanishing after marriage, only I keep it completely inside and only even think about it when I'm here writing. It's not wrong for me to want a sex life any more than it would be wrong for my wife to want flowers once in a while or a hug every day before leaving for work or a husband to cook and clean.