Sex was great, part 2

[claire7]

^^^ this is the kind of thing I was suggesting to tell her you are afraid it will come to if she continues to refuse to communicate. I was suggesting that, instead of dropping the bomb on her after you have convinced yourself that there is no hope (like my WAH did to me), that you open up to her about your fears and concerns about the affect on the marriage.

Don't make it all about sex... it is more than that. It is about two people being willing to support each other and solve problems together. It takes two people to make a marriage work. Does she want it to work?

My H waited until he felt totally hopeless before opening up to me. Don't do that to your W.

[Grey]

^^^ this is the kind of thing I was suggesting to tell her you are afraid it will come to if she continues to refuse to communicate. I was suggesting that, instead of dropping the bomb on her after you have convinced yourself that there is no hope (like my WAH did to me), that you open up to her about your fears and concerns about the affect on the marriage.

Don't make it all about sex... it is more than that. It is about two people being willing to support each other and solve problems together. It takes two people to make a marriage work. Does she want it to work?

My H waited until he felt totally hopeless before opening up to me. Don't do that to your W.

I wouldn’t wait to open up until I feel totally hopeless. But I’m losing hope with every time I get rejected for trying to open up, despite not even mentioning or suggesting anything having to do with sex. She hasn’t taken any real steps. That’s the trick, isn’t it?

For example, another comment asked what if it were another issue, such as if she was a smoker and I didn’t like it, or if I had a problem with her being obese (she is, and I don’t have a problem with it), or anything else, but I can’t talk to her about it and that becomes the issue.

But separation?

That won’t work for her. That will be permanent.

She has a history of dropping even her best friends permanently instead of working out conflicts, including very minor ones. Suggesting separation, I mean, the idea sounds great and I think maybe some time apart would potentially be the only way she will find it IN HERSELF to try to make the marriage better (instead it’s just me asking, which she interprets as pressuring her, or me being needy, etc.), except she will simply drop me. I’m afraid the real solution is to be ok with her leaving me because I won’t settle for someone unwilling to put forth the effort in a marriage, but if that’s the case, then she’s gone. She’ll leave. She’ll turn it into hate and use that to justify her hate for me for the rest of her life. Of course, I can’t bring that up either (my fear of her leaving me like she’s left so many good friends) because then I look weak and why would she want to be married to that?

I feel stuck. I don’t want to “punish” her but I’m afraid any boundaries I try to set are going to be interpreted by her as punishment. Of course, I don’t want to leave either-----all I really want is for the things I do that make her so happy to be enough to make it possible for her not to harbor resentment towards me for feeling like I need to talk to her about anything. She hates “work.” It’s not fun. Why would she want to do something that’s not fun? I’m afraid the harsh truth is no, it’s not worth it for her to try to make the marriage strong because it’s not worth any compromise whatsoever.

So I wait and fake being as happy as I make her and I go to therapy alone and I’m stuck. I walk into the bedroom to find my wife watching movies about people who have sex, I read about how helpful make-up sex can be and I know that will never happen for me, I know I’m not even supposed to be saying sex now but it IS a need that would bring me closer to her immediately and alleviate some of this loneliness immediately but I can’t TALK to her about it------it would be the same with ANY need, so I don’t get the part where I have to censor what it is BECAUSE I have learned what I need to feel loved and that my marriage is safe and complete. It’s not that it’s sex itself, but not being able to talk about anything only exacerbates the pain-----it makes me want LESS to try so hard to be so good all the time, even though that’s exactly how I want to be but I feel like she starts to think I’m doing that just to hide that I’m hurting.

I've gone long enough without sex or talking about sex with her that I think it's ok to be upset that we can't simply have a conversation about what I need to do to make her happier without her saying "nothing" or getting mad at me just for asking.

[labug]

She can get mad. Your fear of her emotional reaction doesn't mean you don't bring it up. If she gets mad you can say, I love you and this is important to me. We can talk more tomorrow after we've had some time to think.

If she's not willing, she's not willing.

Then you have an answer of sorts.

and decisions to make.

You're crystal ball reading and scripting of everything is probably getting you just what you're getting.

[Grey]

She can get mad. Your fear of her emotional reaction doesn't mean you don't bring it up. If she gets mad you can say, I love you and this is important to me. We can talk more tomorrow after we've had some time to think.

If she's not willing, she's not willing.

Then you have an answer of sorts.

and decisions to make.

You're crystal ball reading and scripting of everything is probably getting you just what you're getting.

I hear you on the “crystal ball” part, and you’re right, I’m doing that, only I’m doing it because I’ve seen the consequences to other people she loved and I’m THAT terrified of the same thing happening to me just for bringing it up.

“We can talk tomorrow instead,” I think I’ve said this every single time I’ve tried to have an important talk with her. She gets upset, usually very quickly into the discussion, and I know it’s not going to get anywhere. I try to get us to take a “time out” for another time, but then, for example, she lets it linger, goes to bed angry (which I have heard is one of the most damaging things to any relationship), and is later still angry. She says she’s not angry the next day, only she says it with a monotone voice and can’t look me in the eye, doesn’t set up another time to talk, etc.

On one hand, I know it’s important to try to initiate the conversation. On the other hand, it’s always me initiating it, and that part alone brings stigma to the situation. Then again, if I don’t bring it up, she won’t either, perhaps because she’s happy and also she’s ok with burying my feelings----I’ve done that for several weeks at a time even, subduing my needs as much as possible so they are unnoticeable to her, but it’s only when they come up again or I try to talk that it’s a problem. It’s like, I want to talk with her about how I can’t talk with her, know what I mean? It’s the ultimate catch 22, and I understand the logic of maybe that means she’s not good enough for me, but I can’t pretend if she couldn’t just get past the part where she can’t/won’t have “adult” conversations (not just with me but the friends she’s abandoned), that things would be able to become great again and she would be thrilled rather than reluctant when it comes to compromising meeting my needs. There’s no compromise at this point---it’s me meeting her needs and not even talking about whatever my needs are.

[HopefulStill]

Grey,

Her getting upset at the off is her way of shutting you up. A good offense is the best defense, so to speak.

How would your W react if suddenly you stopped meeting her most important needs? Would she talk to you about it, or just get nasty until you shaped up? I'm trying to gauge her emotional intelligence. It seems that she has some very poor relationship skills.

If you stay in your M as it is, you will eventually lose your love for your wife, like so many WAS you read about on these boards. When that happens, any attractive person that comes along and starts meeting your needs for intimate conversation and admiration will draw you in like a moth to a flame....

The separation is to help you save your M before its too late. If your wife won't engage in R discussions with you AT ALL, then what are you to do? Sit back and meet her needs while yours go unmet for the rest of your life? That sounds like a very sad story.

If your W cuts you off because you want more from your M, then she doesn't really love you, does she?

-HS

[artsy]

Grey,

Your posts today absolutely shook my foundation: you are my H about 2 years ago. I am your W up until a year or 6months ago. I don't think I realized what he was thinking, truly, until I read some of what you posted.

We also had great sex until we married. About that time, I went though a depression- not severe, but enough that it killed my libido and made my personality a bit "off". He took it personally even though I explained it wasn't him. Nothing I did made me feel better, medication included. I eventually came out of it, but it was too late. He had stopped trying.

I also have a history of cutting people out of my life who hurt me- I could hold a grudge like a champ! He referenced it several times. He also was afraid to bring things up to me because of it.

I empathize and sympathize with you because your sitch is a mirror to mine, opposite roles. I get it, NOW.

let me tell you this: I changed. I am truly a better person than I was last year on every level. If my H would take off his blinders he would experience how I would be a better W, and our M could be amazing. Your W can change, however, she's gonna need some real motivation to do so.

What do you have to lose? The confrontation you are avoiding WILL happen sooner or later. Don't be like my H is now: because he was so afraid of the inevitable confrontation, he made horrible choices based on desperation and emotion. He lost his integrity and tells me frequently that his life is "a mess" and "horrible" and he "can't undo what he did". All because he never communicated honestly with me.

I absolutely played a huge role in the deterioration of our M. But he has allowed fear to rule and destroy his life.

You need to take the reins right now- for both of your futures. As I said, you have nothing to lose. Your M won't survive the way it is now, so why not give it a chance by forcing her to come to terms with the issues?

Wishing we all had a time machine,
Artsy

[Grey]

Grey,

Your posts today absolutely shook my foundation: you are my H about 2 years ago. I am your W up until a year or 6months ago. I don't think I realized what he was thinking, truly, until I read some of what you posted.

We also had great sex until we married. About that time, I went though a depression- not severe, but enough that it killed my libido and made my personality a bit "off". He took it personally even though I explained it wasn't him. Nothing I did made me feel better, medication included. I eventually came out of it, but it was too late. He had stopped trying.

I also have a history of cutting people out of my life who hurt me- I could hold a grudge like a champ! He referenced it several times. He also was afraid to bring things up to me because of it.

I empathize and sympathize with you because your sitch is a mirror to mine, opposite roles. I get it, NOW.

let me tell you this: I changed. I am truly a better person than I was last year on every level. If my H would take off his blinders he would experience how I would be a better W, and our M could be amazing. Your W can change, however, she's gonna need some real motivation to do so.

What do you have to lose? The confrontation you are avoiding WILL happen sooner or later. Don't be like my H is now: because he was so afraid of the inevitable confrontation, he made horrible choices based on desperation and emotion. He lost his integrity and tells me frequently that his life is "a mess" and "horrible" and he "can't undo what he did". All because he never communicated honestly with me.

I absolutely played a huge role in the deterioration of our M. But he has allowed fear to rule and destroy his life.

You need to take the reins right now- for both of your futures. As I said, you have nothing to lose. Your M won't survive the way it is now, so why not give it a chance by forcing her to come to terms with the issues?

Wishing we all had a time machine,
Artsy

What would have helped you?

I mean, you sound just like my wife. I don't want it to come to that, and I'm feeling like I'm unwilling to let it come to that, in particular because of the advice here and education from books and therapy.

But this is perfect because it's you that's so much like my wife yet didn't know until it was too late.

So can I ask your advice?

What would you have wanted to hear from your husband?

For example, I'm afraid my wife may have some depression BECAUSE I'm depressed....so I don't want to bring it up to make it worse? I don't want to be selfish and I'm terrified of her cutting me off like she did some of her old friends.

What do you think he could have said or done that would have helpedyou become part of the solution? I think that too would help her own esteem or ego boost, but getting her there, I know conflict resolution is important but she doesn't.

Would a separation have helped you? Or do you think you actually would have been able to listen to him say the things you think would have helped, and if so, how would he have said them to best help you? Again, I know it's all clear in hindsight, but my wife doesn't have that right now and I don't know how to talk to her---------the letter-writing part scares me most because if I write the wrong thing she'll latch on to specific words or phrases and she'll hate me for them plus she'll have a permanent record of them to remind her to resent me rather than a force to remind her to love me, see why I'm afraid?

[Grey]

At this point I'm terrified to go home. I don't want to fake it and hide anymore. I don't want her to think nothing's wrong no matter how happy it makes her. I don't want to go home until I can go to therapy but that isn't until next week. I don't know what to do.

[artsy]

Ok- I knew things were "off" for several months, but we got along great so I just thought we were in a slump or whatever. Then I started catching him in little lies. Stupid little things that would have made no difference to me- like he bought a gun without telling me (I have no objection to guns- we had several in the house already!!!) then he bought some other stuff and lied about it some more and then he got a new phone and didn't tell me and THAT's when I knew there was big trouble. That' was last August 2, and that was BD #1. I snapped out of my selfishness IMMEDIATELY. I went to IC and started BDing (by coincidence-didn't know this site existed then). I made important changes that have stuck, and he even admitted he noticed and that things got better but then on Dec 14, I was told he was moving out. It completely rocked my world. But, there really wasn't much more for me to "do" cuz I had been doing it already.

Now, my H is full-blown MLC. That did NOT help our sitch. Saying things like "I don't want any responsibility anymore", and "I can't be responsible for anyone else but me" and "I don't know who I am or who I will be when this is all over", "I can't undo what I did, so there's no point in trying"...You aren't MLC, your W just has no idea how bad things have gotten.

I "think" we could have staved off a lot of the mess if I had known the damage happening beforehand. No way to tell now, but the beginning of our story is identical to yours.

As I said, he made horrible decisions to ease the pain he was in instead of rocking the boat earlier to tell me he wasnt happy ( I have not been told the entire story, but I can fill in the blanks to what he has told me).

Honestly, I'm not sure I would have really gotten the message any other way. I was selfish, I took him for granted. I took the man who he WAS for granted. He literally was the nicest guy in the world- everybody would have agreed with that. He lost himself somewhere along the way.

I just assumed he would snap out of his funk and we would just trudge onward because he would never be one of "those guys". Lesson learned!

As I learned in church last week: sometimes He has to break you to remake you.

Bottom line: I had to learn my lesson the hard way. I will say he never made an attempt to sit me down and talk. He went passive-aggressive and acted out thinking I would "get the hint" (he told me this).
That doesn't work. Don't do it. Talk to her- you literally have nothing to lose at this point.

Did that help? Feel free to ask any question you need to. Sorry you are hurting.

[Grey]

Ok- I knew things were "off" for several months, but we got along great so I just thought we were in a slump or whatever. Then I started catching him in little lies. Stupid little things that would have made no difference to me- like he bought a gun without telling me (I have no objection to guns- we had several in the house already!!!) then he bought some other stuff and lied about it some more and then he got a new phone and didn't tell me and THAT's when I knew there was big trouble. That' was last August 2, and that was BD #1. I snapped out of my selfishness IMMEDIATELY. I went to IC and started BDing (by coincidence-didn't know this site existed then). I made important changes that have stuck, and he even admitted he noticed and that things got better but then on Dec 14, I was told he was moving out. It completely rocked my world. But, there really wasn't much more for me to "do" cuz I had been doing it already.

Now, my H is full-blown MLC. That did NOT help our sitch. Saying things like "I don't want any responsibility anymore", and "I can't be responsible for anyone else but me" and "I don't know who I am or who I will be when this is all over", "I can't undo what I did, so there's no point in trying"...You aren't MLC, your W just has no idea how bad things have gotten.

I "think" we could have staved off a lot of the mess if I had known the damage happening beforehand. No way to tell now, but the beginning of our story is identical to yours.

As I said, he made horrible decisions to ease the pain he was in instead of rocking the boat earlier to tell me he wasnt happy ( I have not been told the entire story, but I can fill in the blanks to what he has told me).

Honestly, I'm not sure I would have really gotten the message any other way. I was selfish, I took him for granted. I took the man who he WAS for granted. He literally was the nicest guy in the world- everybody would have agreed with that. He lost himself somewhere along the way.

I just assumed he would snap out of his funk and we would just trudge onward because he would never be one of "those guys". Lesson learned!

As I learned in church last week: sometimes He has to break you to remake you.

Bottom line: I had to learn my lesson the hard way. I will say he never made an attempt to sit me down and talk. He went passive-aggressive and acted out thinking I would "get the hint" (he told me this).
That doesn't work. Don't do it. Talk to her- you literally have nothing to lose at this point.

Did that help? Feel free to ask any question you need to. Sorry you are hurting.

Yeah, that helped a lot.

And it’s also what I’m most afraid of.

I think my wife knows I’m hurting and feeling alone because I’ve said it, versus your husband not saying it. But we don’t talk about it because she immediately shuts down----last night when the conversation started she almost immediately got defensive. I tried to stop it, to have the conversation later so it didn’t escalate, but then she yelled just for that. This morning, she woke up mad with me.

He left and you felt bad. If I leave, she won’t feel bad---she’ll hate me and try to forget about me like she did some of her best friends, that’s what I’m afraid of.

I want to try talking to her again, I just don’t know what to say. I’m dealing with anger management so I don’t yell anymore (not that I yelled much, just when I broke down the first time about how lonely I felt before I found DB, but she yells at me more than I yell at anyone). But she isn’t trying. I can’t get her to try, it feels like.

Think about it realisticaly-----what would it have been like if your husband had come to you and, despite being nice and meeting your needs, he got upset that he felt alone and unloved? What if you had yelled at him? What can I do to make my wife CAPABLE of talking with me about anything important, let alone this gripping feeling that I want to leave like your husband did so I can be happy again?