She says she's conflicted

[Starsky309]

I am listening
What starts it is her being upset about something.

This leads to her admitting that she wants to limit contact.
Where I mess up is I say limit? How about no contact!?

I discussed with her this morning that we should only be focused on us

You're missing the point -- again -- Ox. It's not the CONTENT of the conversations about OM. It's the very EXISTENCE of them, with her husband!!!

Where you mess up is, not cutting the conversation off IMMEDIATELY, and telling her you WILL NOT talk about her boyfriend while you are still her husband, as it's disrespectful, hurtful and inappropriate.

[Starsky309]

I should probably add, NONE of this changes one iota of what Bond, Gabby, 25yrs and others are telling you about WORKING ON YOURSELF.

I am only adding to the conversation that element that I see is missing, and it's TACTICAL -- just a key means of communicating, and learning to set and enforce boundaries. It does not change what your STRATEGY should be, and that is to WORK ON YOURSELF, and building your own confidence and attractiveness, and working on your wife's legitimate marital complaints, and being the best father and role model you can be for your kids!

[Oxford1]

Thanks Starsky your a great coach!

I am going to really work on this.
I have been a good role model to my kids except In this situation.

Your comments on OM are very telling. I have to just keep playing them over in my head.

[Oxford1]

I should probably add, NONE of this changes one iota of what Bond, Gabby, 25yrs and others are telling you about WORKING ON YOURSELF.

I am only adding to the conversation that element that I see is missing, and it's TACTICAL -- just a key means of communicating, and learning to set and enforce boundaries. It does not change what your STRATEGY should be, and that is to WORK ON YOURSELF, and building your own confidence and attractiveness, and working on your wife's legitimate marital complaints, and being the best father and role model you can be for your kids!

My WAW has a really awful cold so I offered to take her to her court appearance for something business related. Then I spent the evening watching "The Last Ship" with my S16, she actually decided to join us and sat next to me...

It's interesting I mentioned some upcoming business meetings and she wanted the who what where and why...

I keep hearing all the comments from everyone in my thread and I just completely diverted any conversations about anything but my S16 and S21.

It was actually refreshing to enjoy an evening without relationship talk...

[Oxford1]

The Tough Love thing has to be done on us BS/LBS's too.


That is exactly our point. Oxford is continually pointing at his wife and or OM for change in THEM, which he has zero control over. Plus he has his own flaws to work on and those are what his job is, not fixing her or OM.

Honestly dude, unless you get yourself straight in the head and heart (for your own benefit), this whole process will eat you alive.
You'll do plenty of damage to what's left of the relationship too.

Most of our wives not only take our hearts when they go, but they'll take our balls too if we're not wearing them at the time.

Um, not to quibble, but I'm sure how this^^ plays in.

Ox's anger has worsened things, not improved them. He needs to control HIMSELF, not others.

Ox, Start by GAL, please...you'll never detach without that and you will repeat your past dynamics too much.

Bottom line is this,

No WAS comes home to a marriage they left,

UNLESS they believe the marriage can be

better/different than before.

It's your job to demonstrate YOUR changes...How on earth will she ever believe that YOU are different/better than before,

if you continue to repeat the same destructive
(controlling and obsessive and insecure) behaviors as you have for so long?

Just stay in your sandbox and work on You...stay out of hers and for God's sake don't even think about OM's sandbox. He has his issues-- but the more you point them out, the more she'll defend him. Unlike many, you have a wife in the home to whom you could better interact (or repeat the past bad behaviors she uses to justify leaving you or wanting an OM) b/c OM is a symptom, NOT the cause...

Fix yourself and improve the dynamics between you and your wife, and the rest takes care of itself. IN short, Back off, BE the better choice.

I wasted a year of my life wondering WHY?? my h was going all "Tundra" on me. A year I can't get back. (And our marriage had once been a truly excellent one, so we never had the toxic dynamics you are dealing with...)

I could have spent that year on myself and my kids' lives and improving them...but until he actually went up there, I could not figure this out. I tried and fell and got back up again and then when he left
I realized I only had one healthy choice.

When I GAL, I finally saw the light...and my goal was NOT getting him back.

My goal was to be happy, with the expectation that he probably was gone forever.

And I did get happier, and so did our children.

So when he wanted back into the marriage/home, I hesitated a long time b/c I just was not sure I wanted to be hurt again AND also b/c I had come to like my new life quite a bit.

My guess is that I became the woman he fell in love with, again.

An update on this...she spoke to her lawyer and me mine, we actually stopped all divorce proceedings for now...I think I'll get some of my retainer back...

Folks remember she ran from me in February. She sent me a email asking for a divorce...
Now it's on hold she's in the same house as me...

I have to let her see the changes in me...not tell her about them but let her see them.

I also have to read that book boundaries that I purchased when I first found this forum..

[25yearsmlc]

I should probably add, NONE of this changes one iota of what Bond, Gabby, 25yrs and others are telling you about WORKING ON YOURSELF.

I am only adding to the conversation that element that I see is missing, and it's TACTICAL -- just a key means of communicating, and learning to set and enforce boundaries. It does not change what your STRATEGY should be, and that is to WORK ON YOURSELF, and building your own confidence and attractiveness, and working on your wife's legitimate marital complaints, and being the best father and role model you can be for your kids!

I echo these sentiments^^... I might make your reply to your wife's complaints about her boyfriend, shorter. Mostly b/c I fear 2 things: You won't STFU after you say it b/c you'll go on and on OR you'll want her to apologize, AND OR, you'll say it with anger.

Perhaps ask her to consider the whole dynamic involved (what I think Starsky is saying is, in part, that she's treating you like her bff, and that's not sexy or showing leadership. Plus, it's wacky levels of wrong.)

Just TELL her you think "wow, w, if you put yourself in MY shoes, I hope you'd see how this is a wildly inappropriate topic. So I can't listen to it anymore so, see ya."

Thing is, then you have to STFU and leave the room. Yeah, LEAVE THE ROOM and do not act show that you are angry. Stay in control of yourself.

You are merely SHOWING her that you will not listen to that type of discussion and b/c you have given her an explanation (obvious to the rest of the "real world") there's really nothing much left to talk about...right?

Also, you have a HUGE positive that just happened, (assuming your wife agreed) to STOP THE DIVORCE.

Don't blow it now. Do NOT PUSH FOR MORE YET...

and finally, I'm going to post something you probably should have gotten before but I forgot I still had it.

It's a copy of a letter from a WAW to her h. Her h, in their case, had made some significant changes within, and he had become a better h/father.

He could not comprehend why she would still feel uncertain about their marriage.

But he admitted he'd been "kind of a jerk" before hand. More than just neglecting her (that, too) but often snapping, taking his wife for granted and being critical, moody, dumping on her as well. She had NOT been his priority.

So, just see if any of the letter from the wife, might ring true for you.

FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED,& WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET, AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M.

I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.

So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.


Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to 'win'.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to 'win'.

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________________

Another thing to think of is how "mathematical" this can be.

consistent change on your part + sufficient time = change SHE can believe in.

Good luck.

[RedHawk98]

Very pleased to hear things are headed in some kind of workable direction Ox.

25years above has summed up what I was going to say in much more detail.

My grandfather once said,
"Three sides to every story, your's, mine and the ****ing truth"

That's very true in our situations.
When it seems totally unfair that you have to fight back to win your wife from an OM, remember that few wives are straight out cold hearted b*tches.

SOMETHING made them do that. I hope, one day soon she can express what it was, amd you can use it to move forward.

[Oxford1]

Very pleased to hear things are headed in some kind of workable direction Ox.

25years above has summed up what I was going to say in much more detail.

My grandfather once said,
"Three sides to every story, your's, mine and the ****ing truth"

That's very true in our situations.
When it seems totally unfair that you have to fight back to win your wife from an OM, remember that few wives are straight out cold hearted b*tches.

SOMETHING made them do that. I hope, one day soon she can express what it was, amd you can use it to move forward.

She says it was a cry for help

[RedHawk98]

I would want a statement like that to come with something to back it up.
Just so I knew she was sincere and not throwing cliche's at me.
(I've been separating what were genuine feelings from her and what were movie lines to rewrite history in my situation. Because I've had a confusing mix of both).

I think that may help as from what you've decribed, she experienced a severe drop in respect for you.

Without that, genuine love will be difficult to re-establish.

[25yearsmlc]

I would want a statement like that to come with something to back it up.

He has had decades of marriage and if he listens to her, he KNOWS that she has complained about things before. This did not come out of nowhere. Have you read his entire thread?

Just so I knew she was sincere and not throwing cliche's at me.

You want to test your wife's sincerity when she tells you what she needs? Really?


(I've been separating what were genuine feelings from her and what were movie lines to rewrite history in my situation. Because I've had a confusing mix of both).


You both push too much and then seize on your w's word changes like a lawyer cross examining someone, to catch them in small variations and then call them "lies" or "confused signals".

Even if or when they are hiding something, figure out if you are playing a role in that...over reacting to things that can incentive someone to deceive.

It does not make it right but for instance, I know when my brother in law flipped his lid when my sister dented the car, the next time she got rear ended, she hid it from her h.

So, who was "more wrong" In ^^that? DOES IT MATTER -- or should her h first learn to keep a cool head?

By nature my sister is very honest but after witnessing his idiotic outburst, I could see why an upset woman with a dented car would find her husband's anger the LAST thing she felt like facing..

. And trying to "catch" a wife in a mistake makes this a competition, or punitive game, not a marriage. What is the GOAL of that? It is feeling "right"?


Why not make the goal trying to understand what your wives are telling you? Think of it as a mission...gathering intelligence for the task...
Listen and hear what your spouse is flat out telling you.

My God, a "cry for help" is NOT to be challenged. Proof is not to be demanded of her for that remark. I think It's heartbreaking.


No woman leaves a decades old marriage and children, for a silly selfish reason alone. Something important to her was missing...and You just finished telling Ox to find out why she's left and said there must be a reason-- so when he says what she says, you want to doubt her words? WHY?

Figure our your goal and get on and stay on the path to the goal. Stop letting ego and emotions knock you off the path.

I think that may help as from what you've decribed, she experienced a severe drop in respect for you.

Without that, genuine love will be difficult to re-establish.

Oxford, I repeated the Letter to you and red hawk on his thread. though I hate doing that (repeating a long post) I notice neither of you took in the words of a WAW...

you should.