Me 54 Him 63 M 23 T 29 0 Kids Funny Farm of Rescues 12/12 OW-- 5/13 ILYBINILWY: A denied 9/13 Proof OW: ENDED 2/14 Got D papers on my BD I kicked him out for my sanity 9/14 He wants to "talk"?
I am indebted for your responses. They are spot on, dead on, and provide some great advice, and a bit of insight as well. Much appreciated
I replied in Green under your bolded remarks and questions
Better go get some smarties
And thanks to everyone who is providing feedback and advice, I couldn't do it without you all!
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Hiya, Dev! You called me?
Okay...let's dissect your W's letter to try to see it from her POV.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I know this may seem strange for me to write you like this at this time.
I feel like the last several months in particular have been a blur although in many ways so have the last several years.
This suggests she's in a survival mode and barely treading water. That is her perception..right or wrong. It is just how she sees things right now.
Great observation and completely true You are an incredible person. You are passionate, loyal, trustworthy, committed, kind, and generous. You are an amazing father. And when I say the kids are lucky to have you as their dad, I mean it with my whole heart. I regret not being able to let you share more in their early months & years. That was a mothering philosophy of mine but also a deep unmet need of mine: I had felt so much excruciating pain not being able to count on my parents in my most vulnerable moments that I could not bear to let my own babies feel despair.
It is positive and encouraging to hear W say that she thinks you are a wonderful father. What a gift! From this, it is apparent that W is allowing her FOO issues to spill over into her parenting realm.
This is where you perhaps you can ask open ended questions such as "First of all, I want to say here that I think you are a great mother to our kids. I appreciate you sharing how you felt about your parents and your upbringing in regard to rearing the children. How did that make you feel? Could you please explain this more fully so I can understand you better?" Then step back and listen. Perhaps you can ask if she felt that you did not back her up enough as a mother when it comes to parenting your children. Ask her for specifics on some of the ways you can be more supportive to W in that area.
It was very nice to hear her say these things, although it contradicts with what she said before. I like the suggestions on getting more info from her. Reflecting back, she did feel like she had no backing from me with respect to how we parented and the type of mother she was. I did a poor job of showing her that our beliefs were aligned, and I need to improve that moving forward.
Whenever I find myself referring to you, it is with pride I have called you my husband. It took months to get used to calling you "my husband" so I imagine it will take months to not refer to you as such. I will always treasure having shared my most intimate moments with you.
She's hearing two voices. One voice says, "Hey Dev is a great husband and father! What are you thinking here??!" and there's the other one that says, "Oh boy...my scorecard is looong and resentments are quite high. I just cannot go back to that dark place again." I think her main focus right now is to feel whole again and not struggle with her 'mental illness' as she says here.
I often wonder "what I am doing" and "why" am I doing it? As I'm sure you among others do as well.
It makes little sense on the outskirts. And it's not fair to you. I see that. And I am deeply sorry.
I am sorry for the unending bitterness in our relationship. The resentment that built over years. I feel like I lost myself in motherhood and wifehood. But I never had much of a "self" prior to marriage. I think I had been on a journey to finding myself around that time but any progress that I'd made was eaten up a little more after each pregnancy to the point of nearly being unrecoverable.
I think it is CRITICALLY important that W feels heard that she needs to discover herself as "Victoria" not as Dev's wife or the mother. Just say, "I can imagine how overwhelming managing a household, parenting our children, cooking, trying to be a good wife. It can feel quite too much, ins't it? I am glad to see that you are trying to step back a bit and re-discovering yourself as "Victoria" and I am all for that personal growth.
I have been very supportive of this, and unfortunately the OM involvement has created a bit of an issue, as I felt that she wasn't discovering herself this way. Of course, I realize this is unfair of me, and it doesn't really matter, even though it hurts incredibly
I think we have both really gotten to know ourselves and each other a little more throughout the last few months particularly in our sessions with IC
Hey! Dev...this is BIG. In what ways did she mean by this? It seems that during IC sessions that W feels 'safe' enough to open up and share her thoughts with you while in there. Could you please elaborate on this a bit more?
When we have been in FT or IC, W has felt like she has a voice, which has allowed her to alleviate some of her anxiety and actually feel like she is being listened to. In addition, I have realized how I was attempting to control my M to minimize my hurt and pain, and my W has realized she has a lot of blame and resentment. The pattern has been for me to be blamed for most things. Right now, W does not feel safe to talk outside of FT or IC, because she feels I always win. I am trying to work on reflective listening to help alleviate this trend
Now that we are both almost at a place of understanding how we got here, it does seem tragic to not "make it work." I say almost because I believe we are still learning about ourselves and each other during each session. And I believe there is merit in that as individuals and as co-parents and hopefully as friends.
It is 'tragic' to W because she CANNOT see or is UNABLE TO see a way or a different way of approaching this M. I am wondering if your IC has any experience in MC or is SBT based on Gottman principles?
The IC does have experience, but I don't think she is applying SBT based on Gottman principles. I am discussing this with her tonight.
I am terrified of losing you.
Yep. Most WAS face this when the real possibility is right in their faces. They don't want to lose their best friends and do miss the essence of the LBS. That is the key right there.
But I feel that we are trapped in a cycle of our most wicked traits always hovering.
Perhaps this would be good to ask W what she meant by this. You don't want to assume here.
I will definitely. I do have assumptions, but hearing from her would be great. I believe she has articulated to me already that she feels the safest and most comfortable with me, which allows her to be herself, whom she despises. Does that make sense? All her worst traits she is comfortable exploring with me, and I have made many mistakes not listening to her and not allowing her to have a voice in our R.
And I am mostly referring to the feelings and behaviours of mine that I battle. Although I have wondered lately if the perfection you've felt you had to live up to with your family has been projected onto me.
Whaddya mean here, W!? Do you have a sense of what W is alluding to here, Dev? Do you actually feel this way? Why does she feel or think that it has been projected onto her? I am thinking she's most probably thinking that she HAS TO take this on thus the struggle. That is where I think she may be not entirely correct. It is those silly and pesky assumptions again on her part as well!
I come from a family that is very loving and supportive. This is very foreign to my W, and over the 18 years we have been together, she has always struggled feeling that my family saw her as inferior or judged her. The truth is that she has taken this perfect family role on. I am the oldest son, oldest grandson on a European origin family, that can have a lot of stressful origins. I have strived all my life to achieve and meet these expectations. Familial obligations, dinners, birthdays, are frequent, but have become less so as everyone's family has grown. I have come to terms with not worrying about what other people think some time ago, and we used to discuss this frequently. My wife has always felt she is not good enough for me, or that my family perceives her as such. That is not the truth, but it is definitely how she feels, and there is no arguing a feeling
A me that does not have the foundation or skills to cope with such high expectations.
What expectations? What are they exactly? Did someone or people communicate them to her? Where did she "learn" this? Is it really you? Your family? Or more to do with her own FOO issues?
As I stated above, no one has communicated any expectations to her. I would dangerously assume they are to be a good mother and a good wife, but I would rather find out what she feels they are. A lot of FOO issues as well, but that has more to do with coping skills. I think it's further down, but this is another area that is severely lacking.
Tragically, the feelings I battle most appear before I see you, when I'm with you, or after I've left your company. They are suffocation, anxiety, depression, despair and they lead me spiralling towards only one option.
All of this is all on W. There's nothing you can do to fix this until W seeks help. In one breath, she praises you as a great father and husband....then in the next one she feels "suffocation, anxiety, depression, despair." Heh? Which is which! It is all internalized and you have absolutely nothing to do with this at all.
I have been very concerned about this, because I'm not sure what I should do to change this, or what I can do. I assumed a lot of this was out of my control, but I don't want to miss anything
I can't say it's just the kids, or the house, or you, or life, and how we've structured it. But as scared as I am of losing you, I am more terrified of the suicidal thoughts I have. They are at times relentless.
From this, it is apparent that W is looking at life in a negative vein and world with half-glass approach. She needs to work on changing her own inner thoughts. I'd suggest that you Google the "top 10 books on happiness" and perhaps use that as a springboard in your next IC sessions with W. You can show that you're concerned about W's suicidal thoughts, but not to enable her in continuing those negative thoughts/behaviors.
Will do. I'm very concerned about this as well. I've always been the optimist in our relationship, well she's been the pessimist. Maybe I should try to 180 this, which will be a struggle as I don't like to look at life that way.
I am not telling you that for any reason other than it is real and it is powerful and it is unbearable to live with such harmful and intrusive thoughts. And I'm sorry they've become associated with you. I know I've had them before in my life and before I knew you so even though this association is powerful now it is something I feel inside of me that I will be battling for my entire life.
Focus on the quote---"I know I've had them before in my life and before I knew you..." It is abundantly clear that depression or whatever is an ongoing struggle that has absolutely nothing to do with you or the M. It is her coping skills that are the real crux of the problem. She definitely needs to learn better coping skills and what "happiness" means to her.
Agree wholeheartedly, sadly coping skills are something we often discussed but never worked on developing. I've always been able to count on family support, as has she, but she has always felt like the kids are the focus of the support as opposed to her. Her own definition of happiness is key as well.
It is an illness. A silent illness. And probably why I so often wish for another disease. A disease that evokes compassion and sympathy. A disease where people would want to help care for you and your family. Without judgment. Where people would forgive you for not feeling up to attending an event or where they would make you a meal and take your kids out to ease the load. But mental illness does not afford that patience. And it is draining for people to try to understand it.
The one thing that jumps out at me the most about ^^ is that W is most likely feeling judged by others as a mother, sister, wife and feeling that she's not measured up as well as she'd like. Wow. That's a huge burden to carry. She's gotta learn not to care about what others think of her or care how she measures up to others. She's making the best out of her life and that's good enough. It is her negative thoughts that are causing her to walk down a downward spiral.
To be clear, I am no expert on mental illness nor do we know what type W has to date since I have not seen you post any official one from her doctor. So I'd want to be upfront right here.
This is where I was talking about the importance of what other people think of her. It's paramount in her thoughts and actions, even in the current situation.
So I will say that my anxiety, depression, irritability, and feelings of being overwhelmed are symptoms I've lived with for decades but they are now also symptoms of my marriage and my kids and my lifestyle and these symptoms need to be managed like any other illness. I will never be able to live up to your family's expectations.
Again, with that "expectations." Why did she FEEL the need to do so? Where did she get that idea from?? Was your mother critical to her on her mothering skills? There's something going on right there that W feels very acutely and needs to work through those faulty assumptions with the assistance of a qualified professional.
You cannot do this as her H nor can any one in the family do this. It is for W to work through her own IC.
My W always felt that my mother was critical of her parenting, and she always felt like I didn't support her in our dealing with my mom. I was supportive, unfortunately usually not in front of my W. I should have been more vocally supportive in front of both my mom and my W, and I can understand how she feels let down by me. I am not sure of what expectations she is speaking though, I will ask her for clarification.
It has also led to my feeling of depletion and inadequacy. I know this is also not fair to you. I realize that they may seem like giving up but I see it as exercising control over one small part of my life that I have control over.
That must be rough to hear, Dev! On the other hand, it may be good for her to step away and reclaim herself as "Victoria" instead of Wife & Mother. How can you support her in that area? Perhaps you can offer to watch the kids while she goes off to, say, pottery classes? Find solutions together.
Yes, this whole email was very rough to see and read . It's very important for her to reclaim her self and I get that. The loss of her identity is a huge factor in this. I tried to help give her more space just before the onset of the A, but I assume it was too little to late. My W was attending yoga classes, Zumba, and reconnecting in her work world. I watch the kids now, as they are with me almost all the time, but we are S, and most time when she is away from them, she chooses to go see OM. It would be much easier to give her time if I didn't feel like she was running to the OM all the time, but I guess really that doesn't matter. She can do whatever she needs to do, and that's how I need to approach the subject. I need to not worry about what she does with her time away.
I am sorry that I can't commit to "making it work". I don't like the thought of you being with other women any more than you do. Especially ones who aren't damaged goods like me. But that also builds resentment and the mantra "it's not fair" I know you want to be with me despite my war wounds but I loathe my body. I am no longer proud of what it accomplished. And that is not fair to you either. Some part of me will hold onto the anger that my body was destroyed in the making and birthing and nursing of three big children. Your body underwent transformations only for the better. And that is not fair.
That will take a while to dismantle with the help of a qualified professional. I would imagine she's done this "internal dialogue" of self-hatred over a period of years. I am wondering how old your wife is now? Sometimes when women age...they are confronted with the loss of their youth, their beauty, their vitality...etc. So it can be a sobering experience for women in general.
Of course in my eyes, she has always been and remains a beautiful person. I understand that is twisted based on what she has done over the last 6 months, but her internalized self hatred is so huge, and her resentment to the kids is so huge, she feels it will be a huge barrier moving forward. I've also come to another epiphany in the last little while. And that is since I loathe myself so much in your presence I loathe you for having loved that person. Even if it's not those qualities that you love. Obviously! But you accepting those parts of me hasn't made me overcome them, rather they surface more frequently. This might be a topic for our next session with FT
Applaud W for this epiphany. It makes me wonder if she's fearful of accepting unconditional love from you as she may not have received it from her parents; therefore, she may feel that she does not deserve or learned to accept unconditional love from you. Hmmmmmmmm......
Bang on Wonka, there are all kinds of inadequacy feelings that come from her FOO, and I think unconditional love scares her. She is unable to really deal with it. Of course, I can ask her further and I shouldn't make assumptions. She has always known my love was unconditional, and she may have taken this for granted? Or not have had the capacity to accept it or trust it.
Anyhow, I am sorry for how this happened and how I've handled so much of it. You deserve so much better. And you will find it. I have no doubt. And maybe one day that person will even come to see that despite the unforgivable nature of what I've done, she is lucky to be with the person & partner it helped you become.
Tell her that it must hurt to struggle so much and you hope for her to find happiness. She's wanting to reject you FIRST before you reject her. She cannot handle rejection...nor does it very well at all. So she would rather make this first move and fast! I think it has been the running thread in her life based on what she wrote about her FOO issues here.
Great Advice Wonka, I will use that line. I may respond to her email with some bolded responses, and ask her to enlighten me on the different areas, although I prefer to meet in person, I think she gets more of a chance to express herself on paper right now. xoxo WAW
Thanks so much for stopping by my thread Wonka! I will be discussing the email with my W later this week. I just saw her now and had a light airy exchange, and then she took the kids. I'm off to GAL. Getting home from work and making dinner seriously delayed the reply, this life going on thing can be so tricky
I think it would be more helpful if you can post your draft response to W here first before sending it out. It is not that we think you can't do this yourself...sometimes having extra pair of eyes can help you in separating the wheat from the chaff to be sure it is in line with DBing principles of KISS and STFU.
Will do. I'm very concerned about this as well. I've always been the optimist in our relationship, well she's been the pessimist. Maybe I should try to 180 this, which will be a struggle as I don't like to look at life that way.
Why would you want to 180 on this? Two pessimists are not a good mix. Gotta have some balance here! Just continue on your own path as the optimist because it's you at the core, right?
I've also come to another epiphany in the last little while. And that is since I loathe myself so much in your presence I loathe you for having loved that person. Even if it's not those qualities that you love. Obviously! But you accepting those parts of me hasn't made me overcome them, rather they surface more frequently. This might be a topic for our next session with FT
This part right here seems to me to be sort of the crux of the issue.... I am not a therapist or your wife but I have suffered with these thoughts before too...
it is sort of like...
you loved this person that she really wasn't (because she didn't know who she was) and so...you sort of love the person she hates (as she does not know or love the person who suffers from such pain and depression)
so
if you love that person then how can you possibly love the REAL her? and how can she love someone who loved someone that wasn't really her but a really bad version of her
Does that make sense?
lots of people who are this depressed and who hate themselves this much, turn to drugs
she didn't
she turned to an OM
so...basically, he is her heroin right now
think of him as a drug...he isn't good or healthy for your wife but she is using him as a way of medicating her pain...a way to feel normal and in control when everything else in her life feels out of control. Once she gets healthy, she won't need to self-medicate with him but there will be guilt and you will have to help her through that...through that healing when she is who she was always supposed to be but so guilty because she can see what her self-medication caused
Dev; I have a feeling that this email from her is a turning point. I would respond in writing. That way you can put forth your points and she can read and reread them. Doing it in person is way too difficult. Image if instead of sending you that email she had just said all of this in person. It would have been too much for you to take in, analyse and respond to appropriately. By responding to her email in writing it allows you to put forth a very carefully considered and thoughtful approach and she deserves such a response after having gone through all the self-work and writing that she did for you. Take what Wonka has said as a starting point (kudos to Wonka for that wonderful analysis!) and elaborate. Proofread your work and post it here for comment before sending it to her. This is a golden opportunity to set the record straight on many deep issues and to offer a path to a better M for you two. Good luck - you've definitely got your work cut out for you.
(Seems my W has a lot of those same issues: feels she lost her identity, she just wants to find herself, to just be. To be accepted for her personhood. But she claims she gave up her identity to please me. I can sort of see how this can happen and I never would have asked for her to do that, but she made that choice and now is resentful of the consequences and blaming me.)
M: 59 W: 53 M: 9 yrs T: 14 yrs No kids together but D30(hers), S27, S24, D21(all 3 mine) W moved out 11/18/2013 D-Day 12/14/2013 W moved back home 12/1/2014
Thanks so much for the insight from everyone. It is truly appreciated.
figgeroni: I like the analogy. In fact I have referred to the A as an addiction with her a long time ago when I would discuss it. It is an addiction, and he is her heroin. However, I'm not sure if she has the strength to do what is required to get to the point where I can be there for her. Time will tell. Thanks for your advice!
Peter2: I agree, written response is the way to go, as it gives her something to look at, and I can control what I say on paper, instead of mistakes in person, and most importantly, she will have the freedom to respond at her leisure did she even chooses to respond. Our W's may be similar. My W has a lot of resentment and blame, and compliance. I.e. She resents me be used she complied with what I wanted. We had several core issues that were decided like this. Unhealthy and incorrect.
I should be finished my draft tomorrow night, and I will put it up for analysis and editing from the forum then. Just got back from a night of hiking and playing hockey. Yes, I live in Canada! Feels great to GAL, just need to remember my Stop signs when I start thinking of W and OM.
Been working on my draft, and came across a draft of a letter that I wrote but never sent back in early January. It's amazing when I read it to see how many times I cringe at what I am saying, and it makes me realize how far I've come along. I may post it after, but don't want to confuse people by putting up two drafts.
Here is my first draft, I'm not sure if it feels too long and responsive rather than emotional. I tried to validate her feelings, convey my understanding, and where I know I have erred, acknowledge my mistakes. There is much more I wanted to say, but I understand this is not about pursuit in any way. I still want to keep the road paved, but I'm not sure if I have done too much or not enough.
Suggestions? Edit away, and thanks in advance!
PS, the comment in Green is not going to be in the response, it shouldn't even be present here, but I couldn't resist
Dev
Dear "Victoria"
Thank you for sharing your perspective and feelings with me. I appreciate your openness and your honesty.
I agree with you that the last few months and years have been a bit of a blur. I truly appreciate your comments with respect to me as a father. It means a lot to me to know that you feel that way, and I value knowing that you think and believe that truly.
First of all, I want to say here that I think you are a great mother to our kids. You have fully immersed yourself in their upbringing, and doted on them and taken care of our children incredibly. You made sacrifices all the time to put the children first, and myself first, and the way the children look to you is obvious. To watch you hold each of our children and see the love and care you provided and continue to provide is truly exceptional.
When you shared how you felt about your parents and your upbringing in regards to rearing the children, it made a lot of sense to me how our roles were delineated during the kids early years. How did that make you feel to explain that to me? I understand your parents failure to support and meet all of your needs led to you wanting to care for every need of our children's to ensure that it was met. Unfortunately, that may have created some of our problems with respect to resentment. Thank you for acknowledging this.
Did you feel like I didn't support you enough or back you up with respect to raising our children? I am fully supportive of the way we have raised our children, and if you can give me some specifics of some ways that I can be more supportive of this, that would be great. I think we have both done a great job with the kids.
The last few months, I have become acutely aware of how overwhelming managing a household, parenting our children, maintaining a career, cooking, and trying to be a good partner can be. I'm sure it was too much at times? I have recognized that I failed to validate the difficulties that happen with running a house and family, and I failed to show you how important you as yourself and the person were to me. I have always loved "Victoria" the person, and nothing else. I failed to show you that and help you realize that. That is a failure on my part.
I'm glad to see that your are trying to step back a bit and re-discovering yourself as "Victoria" and I am all for that personal growth. I agree the counselling sessions we have done and the independent sessions have been great for me to realize what has happened, as well as allow both of us to explore our own identities. I welcome a safe environment where you feel that you have a voice, and I would welcome any suggestions for what I can do to make this happen?
It must be very tough to feel like you have no other options than to not work on our marriage. It must be frustrating and scary. I know you are scared of losing me, much like I am scared of losing you. I understand you feel that we are trapped in a cycle of our most wicked traits hovering. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by this, and we could look at exploring this further? I wonder if this is because we know each other so well, that we allow ourselves to be most vulnerable with each other. I'm not sure though.
Interestingly for me, I have realized how many times we actually agreed on things that were big stumbling blocks, and I recognize the failure I had to communicate my thoughts to you. Two things that come to mind are the fourth child, and moving to a different area.
The feelings of despair, anxiety and suicidal thoughts that are unrelenting when you are around or near me and the kids must also be very scary and difficult to deal with. They disturb me much like they do you, and I understand you wanting to control those and minimize them. The turmoil and hopelessness would be very disturbing. I too was concerned about those feelings and thoughts, and often tried to control and minimize the impact on you. I now know that this control was not ideal, and different strategies are needed to help understand these feelings.
I'm not sure if these feelings are a result of your affair and being uncomfortable at the house knowing that is going on, or if they are deeper rooted, as you mention. I would like to help you in any way that you desire. Finding and figuring out some coping strategies might be beneficial?
It must be very stressful to feel like you have expectations to live up to. It must be overwhelming to feel that you are not meeting expectations. I have always felt that you have been an excellent mother and person, and I too have been proud to call you my wife. My only expectations are for you to be yourself, the incredible mom that you are and the person I met and fell in love with.
What type expectations do you feel? The expectations that would be present in a marriage would be between the two of us, with disregard for what anyone else thinks or feels. For me, if the two of us are happy, both of us are happy, and that is what matters to me.
I am aware that you have often felt judged by others, my family, and myself. It must be incredibly difficult to bear this burden. Speaking for myself, I have only pride for you. You have several amazing traits, your passion, your intelligence, and your care and thoughtfulness. To feel like these are unappreciated must be very difficult.
I am incredibly sad that you loathe yourself and resent me for loving you unconditionally. It must be horrible to feel that way, and to feel like that about yourself. I would welcome a discussion about this with IC.
I understand that you truly feel that you have no options at this time other than the course you are taking. I recognize that it must hurt to struggle so much, and I truly hope that you find the happiness you have been seeking. I am happy to support you in your journey to find your own happiness and identity
This outcome is not something that I desire, but I will not stand in your way. I realize how important the establishment of your own identity is before any relationship is possible.
