Sex was great, part 2

[GoatGal]

I haven't even read all of your response.

I got stuck on "I'm not trying to "fix" it."


Maybe you did only brought it up with her once.

But you have been going over and over it here, trying to find a way to "fix" it.

IT'S THE SAME THING.


You're fixated on this in a way that doesn't seem good for you, for her, or for your marriage.

I'm not saying you don't love her, not at all.

What I am trying to do is to get you to think about what that love REALLY MEANS and how it can be EXPRESSED if you have to put your sex life on hold.

(NOTE: I did NOT say, "Like like a Monk." Though from what I've read, some of those Monks found a workaround too.)

But I feel like I'm swimming upstream.

Every time advice or suggestions are offered, you find a way to explain them away or justify/defend how you're going about it.

Think about this ^^^ and look within.


Maybe this is not all about "fixing" her and your sex life, know what I mean?
I keep hearing about you and how neglected you feel and how hard it is for you.
I am going to read back and see how many references I can find that talk about how hard this might be FOR HER.

(Meanwhile, just because you "go through" menopause, doesn't mean that the symptoms and changes are not ongoing.)
Do yourself a favor and read about it more.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you're just not hearing us.

I agree that not being able to share a great love life with your W is painful, and you do NOT have to accept a sexless marriage.

But right now the best thing you can do is do some serious soul-searching on your part.

What is a "Marriage" really?

-------------------------------

Stop focusing so much on her, what you want her to do, and how you can get her to do it.
It's all DBing anyway.
WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT OUR SPOUSES DO!

The less we stop trying to manipulate them and the situation, the sooner things will make themselves clear.




---GG

PS: BTW, six/eight/twelve weeks does NOT a "sexless marriage" make.
(And as I recall, you had an encounter with her recently. I guess that didn't count?)

And since you haven't actually GONE six months without sexual contact, I wouldn't get too worked up about it. Even if you do, that's still not the end of the road.

Sh*t happens. Sometimes in a marriage, sex gets put on hold for a whole bunch of reasons.
No one ever died from it yet, especially if they have the love and affection and commitment from their spouse, which is something MOST of us here DO NOT.
In addition to no sex. FOR YEARS. Yup.

Sheesh.

[Starsky309]

Grey,

I feel for you, man -- really, I do. But I think you have to decide whether or not you can live like this, and if so, for how long. Because there's a very real possibility that this is "the new normal" for your wife.

There's an old joke that goes "I want sex 6-8x per month and my wife wants it once per month, so we compromised . . . we have sex once per month."

There's a lot of truth in that. The low-drive partner will always dictate the pace (or lack thereof) of the marriage's sex life. Each partner needs to decide what they can abide, and what they can't. Unless there's an underlying medical cause, or other marital problems impacting the SL, rarely do these things change much, in my experience.

But as I've said before, I may be the cynical "low test score" you want to throw out on this subject.

For the record, I don't think you're being unfair here. If your wife's primary LL was, say, "quality time," I don't think anyone would fairly suggest that she "just get over it" if you withheld quality time from her for six months.


Starsky

[GoatGal]

I do agree with Starsky that if it's just a case of mis-matched libidos, then that's something you need to decide that you can live with, or not.

My H and I were mismatched that way, him on the lower side, but I loved him and decided it was something I could live with because there was so much more to our R than that.
(There is more to that story if you want the gory details in my thread.)


My point is only that there may well BE an underlying physical cause considering her history, something she is unwilling to share right now for whatever reason.

(I have gone through some physical "female" issues myself and I did NOT want to share these with my H because I felt it would be a turn-off. It made for some weird times.)


I'm still waiting to see if she shares something with you when she feels it's safe to do so.
I hope I'm right because perhaps it will be something transient and fixable by medical means.


----GG

[Grey]

I haven't even read all of your response.

I got stuck on "I'm not trying to "fix" it."


Maybe you did only brought it up with her once.

But you have been going over and over it here, trying to find a way to "fix" it.

IT'S THE SAME THING.


You're fixated on this in a way that doesn't seem good for you, for her, or for your marriage.

I'm not saying you don't love her, not at all.

What I am trying to do is to get you to think about what that love REALLY MEANS and how it can be EXPRESSED if you have to put your sex life on hold.

(NOTE: I did NOT say, "Like like a Monk." Though from what I've read, some of those Monks found a workaround too.)

But I feel like I'm swimming upstream.

Every time advice or suggestions are offered, you find a way to explain them away or justify/defend how you're going about it.

Think about this ^^^ and look within.


Maybe this is not all about "fixing" her and your sex life, know what I mean?
I keep hearing about you and how neglected you feel and how hard it is for you.
I am going to read back and see how many references I can find that talk about how hard this might be FOR HER.

(Meanwhile, just because you "go through" menopause, doesn't mean that the symptoms and changes are not ongoing.)
Do yourself a favor and read about it more.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but you're just not hearing us.

I agree that not being able to share a great love life with your W is painful, and you do NOT have to accept a sexless marriage.

But right now the best thing you can do is do some serious soul-searching on your part.

What is a "Marriage" really?

-------------------------------

Stop focusing so much on her, what you want her to do, and how you can get her to do it.
It's all DBing anyway.
WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHAT OUR SPOUSES DO!

The less we stop trying to manipulate them and the situation, the sooner things will make themselves clear.




---GG

PS: BTW, six/eight/twelve weeks does NOT a "sexless marriage" make.
(And as I recall, you had an encounter with her recently. I guess that didn't count?)

And since you haven't actually GONE six months without sexual contact, I wouldn't get too worked up about it. Even if you do, that's still not the end of the road.

Sh*t happens. Sometimes in a marriage, sex gets put on hold for a whole bunch of reasons.
No one ever died from it yet, especially if they have the love and affection and commitment from their spouse, which is something MOST of us here DO NOT.
In addition to no sex. FOR YEARS. Yup.

Sheesh.

Yes, because I thought it was something that could be fixed or changed, albeit after listening to Michele and reading her books.

Then I came here and the advice I get is don't change it, wait 6 months then either you'll be ok with a sexless marriage or you should leave your wife you selfish creep.

think about what that love REALLY MEANS and how it can be EXPRESSED if you have to put your sex life on hold.

I've done that. I do that. I LIKE doing that.

I also LIKE sex. It still feels like an allegation that my wife's needs aren't being met, or that my needs simply aren't as important, regardless of whether or not my wife's needs are being me to any degree including in abundance?

I'm not trying to be confrontational but I think that's how it's being taken, that's all. I just don't understand the logic. Michele says it's ok to want to have sex, but I don't want a sexless marriage no matter how much my wife and I love each other.


You keep saying how hard this must be for her.

I want you to listen to this part very closely. I'm afraid the assumption will still be that something is "missing" and I'm doing something inherently wrong, but I'll try anyway; my wife is happy.

I know, I know, OF COURSE I can't say that. And I even understand that I can't expect anyone to believe it when she says it to me or in the ways we show it to each other. With that said, when you ask if I can imagine "how hard this must be FOR HER," I feel compelled to ask you to at least try to consider IT'S NOT HARD FOR HER.
I think she thinks I just got over it, like the advice makes it sound here (go weeks/months/years without your need {sex} and without bringing it up) because I don't show that I want anything and I haven't stopped meeting her needs, spending time with her, listening, and putting my needs in the closet for now again.

It's not hard for her because on her end everything seems cool and on my end I'm not telling her anything about sex because everyone says not to. She doesn't know this is a problem for me because I don't tell her or ask her for sex. She won't know this is a problem because I need to wait another six months before even thinking about mentioning it again.

It would be hard for her if I resented her, or acted any differently, or begged her for sex, or if we were having sex but she didn't think I was being passionate enough, or if I was ignoring her needs, or if I was being clingy, or if I didn't have my own life and friends and hobbies, or anything else I read from anyone else here and in books, etc.

I've read about menopause. I've talked to my wife. I've talked to doctors. You can't hide hot flashes, but it feels like nobody can imagine my wife isn't going through crazy changes despite not being in menopause. Either she's outright lying to me AND I'm blind to it or I'm at least partially right. Again, I don't mean to be confrontational, it just feels like I keep getting told the only answer is I'm wrong about her changes.


And it all ends with "wait six months" again. I don't get it. That just stinks. It doesn't feel like it's the answer because I can't imagine not fulfilling any one of my wife's needs for six months and her NOT CARING about that. Then again, my wife wouldn't want that to happen to me if she knew, just as I wouldn't either with any of her needs. Isn't that the point? She wants to know, but does she really?

It feels like the ultimate catch 22---------I can't talk to her about it because then that makes "pressure" to meet a need only I have, and I can't hope to be ok with a sexless marriage because I can't PERMANENTLY take away my desire to have sex with my wife (I've DRAMATICALLY reduced my sex drive, believe it or not, as a result of not wanting to pressure my wife to have sex just because I want to have sex).

So six months. K. I guess I'll try that and hope for the best.

[GoatGal]

Grey,

"Then I came here and the advice I get is don't change it, wait 6 months then either you'll be ok with a sexless marriage or you should leave your wife you selfish creep."

I don't think this is what anyone has said AT ALL.

And I certainly never called you a "selfish creep".

Not anything I would ever say. (Except to my H and that's a different story.)

I think you are a husband who loves his wife and is scared and frustrated with a situation he never planned for and is unprepared to deal with.

I'm just trying to give you a different perspective.
Believe it or not, I am trying to help you.

Sorry if we're getting our signals crossed.

The flip side of not trying to find a way to fix this by your actions/inactions is not just waiting six months to see if anything changes and then hanging it up.

There is a middle ground.

I think what most posters have been saying is, try and chill out a little.
Take the focus off sex for awhile, look at what's right between you.
I feel tense just reading about your frustrations... really I do.
It's too much, too frantic and it hasn't abated at all since you started posting.

Meanwhile, figure out what you can and can't live with.
Make sure you have ALL the facts before you make an irrevocable decision about your future with your W.

But--- please don't put words in my mouth.

I've got my foot in there most of the time anyway, so there's no more room.

---GG

[Grey]

Grey,

I feel for you, man -- really, I do. But I think you have to decide whether or not you can live like this, and if so, for how long. Because there's a very real possibility that this is "the new normal" for your wife.

There's an old joke that goes "I want sex 6-8x per month and my wife wants it once per month, so we compromised . . . we have sex once per month."

There's a lot of truth in that. The low-drive partner will always dictate the pace (or lack thereof) of the marriage's sex life. Each partner needs to decide what they can abide, and what they can't. Unless there's an underlying medical cause, or other marital problems impacting the SL, rarely do these things change much, in my experience.

But as I've said before, I may be the cynical "low test score" you want to throw out on this subject.

For the record, I don't think you're being unfair here. If your wife's primary LL was, say, "quality time," I don't think anyone would fairly suggest that she "just get over it" if you withheld quality time from her for six months.


Starsky

I think that's what I'm really afraid of. How much can I take? I don't think it's sex twice a year, that's all. Michele (and everyone else) suggests sex less than ten times a year or so is sexless.

And I don't want that.

And I can't handle that.

It's not that I'm unwilling to change or understand that libidos drop as we age or other things, but yes, sex is very important to me.

I knew sex was important enough to me that it had to be part of my partnership. I knew I wasn't willing to take the risk of a sexless marriage by being with a partner with no sex drive.

And that's the rub-------I made sure that wasn't the case and that my wife liked sex often and didn't have any weird hang-ups that might signal she would not have a sex drive. My wife loved sex. To me, that was great. I can handle her past sex life and previous marriage. Frankly, it helped reinforce that the need for sex I knew I had before proposing marriage was more than just ok---it was a mutually beneficial part of our relationship.


And then we married, and now it's not a mutually beneficial part of our relationship, I'm looking a sexless marriage and I'm afraid the reality is I can't do it. I love her. She loves me. And I can't live in a sexless marriage.

I guess that's something I have to think a lot more about over the next six months. I like the joke, but having sex once per month is too little for me. I know that now. I don't know what that says about me, but I'm afraid I do know what that says about us.

(I have gone through some physical "female" issues myself and I did NOT want to share these with my H because I felt it would be a turn-off. It made for some weird times.)

I'm still waiting to see if she shares something with you when she feels it's safe to do so.
I hope I'm right because perhaps it will be something transient and fixable by medical means.

She's shared a lot. Even I have been surprised, but she does and I love her for that. She felt safe enough to sit down and talk to me about it, only what she said wasn't that she feels bad or lost her sex drive or needs x or doesn't get enough y, etc. I wrote about some of those times before just so we know we're on the same page about her ability to talk to me. I sincerely, truly believe she feels she can (and does) talk to me about even her medical issues. Also, she's more comfortable and aware than most about people about having physiological conversations, probably a result of the cancer.

A caveat, I grew up in medicine, studied medicine, worked in clinics and hopsitals but abandoned medicine in 2001 for my art career. No, that doesn't mean I know everyithing about women and menopause or anything my wife is every going through, but between what I've learned, what I've seen, what I've been told, and observations about my wife, I don't think it's illogical to at least suggest my wife is not having female problems or physical changes that would be a turn off for me.

[GoatGal]

"She's shared a lot. Even I have been surprised, but she does and I love her for that. She felt safe enough to sit down and talk to me about it, only what she said wasn't that she feels bad or lost her sex drive or needs x or doesn't get enough y, etc."


So---what did she say, exactly? It doesn't sound like she said she lost her sex drive...

[Grey]

Also, for the record, I do appreciate your help, GG & Starsky, et al. I do. I'm 99% of the time ok--------it's only when I think about sex or come here to think about the situation that it's a problem and I feel frustrated and scared. I can't pretend I'm not afraid the ultimate result could be that she wants a sexless marriage and I would have to leave because sex is too important to me. I can admit that sex is that important to me, but I can't pretend I'm ok labeling our divorce as a result of me simply wanting sex more than a sexless marriage by definition. All of a sudden I'm the bad guy if that's what happens------"he left me because I wouldn't have sex with him as much as he wanted" is what it feels like.

[Grey]

"She's shared a lot. Even I have been surprised, but she does and I love her for that. She felt safe enough to sit down and talk to me about it, only what she said wasn't that she feels bad or lost her sex drive or needs x or doesn't get enough y, etc."


So---what did she say, exactly? It doesn't sound like she said she lost her sex drive...

No, she didn't say she lost her sex drive, but that doesn't mean she didn't. She just...lost it. Like, doesn't think about it to say she lost it, know what I mean? And I can't be the one to ask about it because that would add pressure.

She said her neuropathy had gotten worse, she talks to me before and after every doctor visit, she is getting another regular ECG scan again soon, she is having a specialist/endocrinologist test her blood next month because she's so tired (she's a diabetic but she loves sweets and pasta and bread and hates vegetables). She talks about being tired and wanting to fix that. It's kinda frustrating because I think she's not doing anything to fix it, such as eating right, excercising, and she'll still stay out way past midnight if she's partying. But I do what I can like letting her sleep in late on the weekends, I get up every day with the dogs so she can get more rest and I don't take it personally when she goes to be before me every night or passes out in the middle of doing, well, anything.

[JCred]

Grey,

I believe strongly that you need to have a good old fashioned "heart to heart" talk with your wife. You need to spill your guts on what is eating at you. If you think you have already had one, then it is time for another. Pronto.

Do you know what is seen over and over on this site?
It is when the betrayed comes on here and is in shock and disbelief that their spouse "suddenly" wants out.

Do you know what the BS often says to people on here?

Why didn't they tell me they were unhappy? If they would have told me I would have done anything to change.

Having a heart to heart talk when a spouse has already decided to leave is usually not wise, however that isn't the case here.

Opening up and having a deep talk to your spouse about an issue as important as this one is to you is sometimes not only necessary, but REQUIRED.

Your wife NEEDS to know and hear how you REALLY feel.
If not you are a prime candidate for an affair somewhere down the road. If that would happen, then you will be using the excuse of "you wouldn't have sex with me".. she will then wonder why you didn't just tell her so that she had a chance to make it right.

Just my honest opinion.