Hi all - "was never in love"

[Mat]

Hi all,

Been married for almost four years now (we're both 38, no kids). W started an EA with a colleague, and when discovered (she was doing it pretty much in plain sight, but in any case I got proof and confronted her).

She has announced that she doesn't think that she was ever in love with me, that she is unhappy in the relationship and needed to get out to have a chance at happiness. First thing I did, when she went to stay at a girlfriend on the first night after the "event", was to download Michele's conference, and took about 10 pages of notes of things I wanted to tell her. The next day we drove out to the country for lunch to discuss it. I poured by heart out to her, basically telling her about my failings and how I believed that I could fix things by changing. I basically summarised the seminar for her, in between tears.

No need for anyone to point out that this wasn't the thing to do, but I did it. I have Michele's books on order from Amazon and I can't wait to read them through.

I am under no illusions that this will be a long, steep climb. She have been together for about 7 years, but have gone colder physically in the second year only. Yet still got married. Because I hadn't had much experience in relationships, I just assumed that this was the way we were, and that the deep bond I felt for her was as good as "passion". I had no idea what connection was or meant. The flood of information and understanding I got from watching the seminar was painful because it was all so obvious in retrospect; why couldn't I handle this before? W doesn't think this would have made a difference, because we were never meant to be.

I suppose the house situation is a bit complicated, it's a hole right now as we are waiting for license to complete works. W is at a hotel for the week. Will not be able to afford these rates indefinitely, however. She's quite intent on moving out and cutting off asap.

She has a different interpretation to mine. She can't believe that I stuck with her for so long, and although I am not the man she would ever fall in love with or have children with (I don't think this is a serious desire on her part anyway), because she was such a B during our whole marriage. Her words. She did struggle with depression. Long before the separation, when she was telling me that we didn't have a connection, that I didn't talk or showed interest, that our relationship was doomed, I put it all on the account of the depression. I was so stupid, to assume I was smart enough or have anywhere near enough knowledge to make such an outlandish assumption.

Thus far (it's only been 4 days), I have reached out to friends and family for comfort. I was moved and delighted by how thoughtful they were, even when I hadn't spoken to them in a while. I will keep my powder dry and I cannot keep tapping them to get a quick fix of comfort, but just knowing they are there is amazing. W has been telling me that it's good that I talk about my feelings, that's not something I ever do.

It's a bit frustrating that she's so "good" about all this. Everything she says is expressed as taking my needs into consideration too, for instance:
- that I don't really want to stay with her anyway
- that we'll both be happier this way
- that we should remain friends

She has said she would end the EA immediately, that she needs to figure herself out.

So I guess, like everyone else I am looking for support and advice. One thing I am unclear on is the "not chasing" bit. How do you signal that your heart is open without coming across as chasing? Now that my cards are on the table, who's to say she won't pick up the books and figure out my tricks? If she finds a boyfriend, at what point do I start going on dates myself or do I not do that at all? I mean, I guess that I am confused as to what signal staying alone and waiting (and sure, while working on you and taking classes and whatever) sends to the spouse. It sounds like a passive position, and not a seductive one. But I haven't read the books yet, maybe it'll be clearer soon. Failing that I may get a coach...

Thank you for reading

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Get out and GAL.

DETACH.

Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.

Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.

USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[Mat]

Well I've certainly taken steps. Read through the 7 steps in DR, sitting outside at a neighbourhood pub in the sun.

Today I was not too pleased with myself that W came in to the house to pick up stuff (in my absence), and I hadn't thought to hide the book. I should have put it away somewhere, knowing she might come by. I don't really want her to see I'm trying to remedy the divorce - certainly not read through the techniques. Pretty sure I remember a couple of Sandi rules about that. That won't help me achieve success on the LRT.

But an old friend is coming to town, and invited me along to a music festival with friends. All females. So I think it's fair to say I'm applying some of Cadet's advice above, but hopefully it's not too much. That's for the last weekend of this month.

In the meantime, we're meeting on Saturday to talk about next steps. She booked herself for a second week at the hotel. I am thinking she's starting to feel comfortable there. Until then I have to think of my goals (though at this point all I am supposed to do is LRT; in fact perhaps not thinking about goals too much will prevent me from getting ahead of myself??). I'll run them by this board. Hopefully you'll have the time to give me some feedback.

I have to say, I have my down moments, but I'm almost worried about how well I'm doing given the circumstances. But I suppose that the relationship was hard on me too; and I've thought about ending it at times. My wife suffers from depression and had breakdowns that not all husbands would have put up with. So I am not sure if this is the right way to see it, but I may take this as an opportunity to create the relationship with her that I wanted when we met 8 years ago. I know she's the one; but I am keen to start from scratch and do the work on myself. And have a good time as far as is possible.

Any thoughts welcome, obviously. Just the support shown on these boards feels really good. But I'll have something more meaty to share at some point, if anything I plan to ask for feedback on my goals, the "what will success look like" points, etc.

I really, really like Michele's approach. In many ways, it is so similar to how you'd improve performance at work. Which gives me an idea...

[Starsky309]

Mat,

If you can't afford a hotel, why are you paying for one? Or is she? (does she work outside the home?)

Although she claims she is cutting off her EA, being squirreled away alone in a lonely hotel room is going to give her ample space in which to conduct an EA, unencumbered.


Starsky

[Mat]

Hi -

I had to read back what I said. I guess I'm just frustrated to be paying. She can afford the rates from her salary - but that's it. That and some food. So that would require some support from me if it was made into a permanent solution.

So I'd say it's not sustainable longer term, but for a month it's not crazy since there's nowhere else she can go. We've agreed that we'd come up with a more permanent solution. So next step will be to work out her budget, and what kind of appartment she can afford. If she's decided that she absolutely wants to separate, she should be able to support herself. Other people with the same job in the same city do it.

The EA is a bit of a worry for sure. But I don't know what else to do; I can't keep her by force. Mortgage is in my sole name; so are the bills. She can walk out anyway, and she has been very clear that she needs the space. There's no family (we're expats) or friends that can take her in for now. But she'll need to figure something out soon.

That said I welcome suggestions and appreciate them. I don't want to come out argumentative or defensive, but talking these through does help surface my reasons and it's very helpful to me.

[Starsky309]

So next step will be to work out her budget, and what kind of appartment she can afford. If she's decided that she absolutely wants to separate, she should be able to support herself. Other people with the same job in the same city do it.

OK, good deal. One very common mistake newbies make here (esp. us "fixer" men!) is to try to shelter our walkaway/wayward wives from any consequences of their walking away. It's best to let them find their way, and to give them space (while not directly paying for them to conduct any affair).


Starsky

[Mat]

Sounds reasonable. It is hard to find a balance between being a decent, helpful friend and a doormat (which is especially important, since avoiding that will be my 180).

But I also have to take (some) responsibility for having handled too much of the admin in our marriage (bills, calling the plumber, you name it). W even remarked, as she was leaving and wondering whether she needed her passport, (staring into space, as if talking to herself) "I don't even know how to check into a hotel anymore". So she was a bit overwhelmed as to where to go, so instead of taking the opportunity to make her stay in our marital bed I found her a reasonable place.

So you really make me reflect with your point about not sheltering her. So I think going forward I will explain to her what she needs to do, where to find the info, in writing (in fact I did just that about the service light that came on in the car, which she's using right now), only ONCE. Some of these instructions will involve using google...

[rayzzz]

I have to say, I have my down moments, but I'm almost worried about how well I'm doing given the circumstances. But I suppose that the relationship was hard on me too; and I've thought about ending it at times. My wife suffers from depression and had breakdowns that not all husbands would have put up with. So I am not sure if this is the right way to see it, but I may take this as an opportunity to create the relationship with her that I wanted when we met 8 years ago. I know she's the one; but I am keen to start from scratch and do the work on myself. And have a good time as far as is possible.

Well done, you are a quick study. Glad you are holding up so well, but make no mistake your heart is still in shock and i think you know that sooner or later you will be riding the waves of an emotional tsunami. Make notes of what you are doing now if anything that is keeping you grounded during this...you'll need it later.

Is she showing off and on signs of depression?
Can you tell when she gets triggered? It might be all about you, right? Is she on meds?

Wouldnt worry about the book. Sure she knows you are trying anything to save the M. Now that you ar DBing you are able to make it casual and covert.

Good on your GALing. Keep detaching and remember no expectations. My WAW stopped giving me compliments on how I looked, good things I did around the house, the way I was with kids because she didnt want me to think we were reconciling by complimenting me. OUCH. Not that I need her approval but now I just expect nothing even if I catch a smile she is trying to hide.
and the best advice ever: Believe NOTHING of what you hear and only HALF of what you see. S waffle like crazy
And yeah transform yourself into the best man you can be and she won't be able to resist you. Dig deep and go forward bro

[Mat]

Thanks rayzzz your encouragement is really comforting. Admittedly I write positive to make sure I stay positive (trying to create a "positive spiral" of sorts). And it's working pretty well.

Amid the pep talk you do bring up a serious issue, that will be central going forward. How to deal with depression. My wife was adopted, and grew up a large family where she felt alienated (other kids were biological, not the same race), and not treated/considered on the same foot as others. So abandonment issues, not feeling loved, etc. Her bio parents also had history of such depression, so there's likely a biological component in addition to environmental.

She does show off and on signs of depression. At the beginning of our relationship, in fact, she was planning to kill herself. She was even thinking of setting me up with one of her friends so I wouldn't be alone! Thankfully, she went to therapy and was on meds for a short while.

Breakdowns can be triggered "by me", e.g. I don't respond or show interest and she'll go silent for a day. Jealousy can be a factor too. But other triggers can be at play too, for instance spending time with her parents dredges up bad memories and/or feelings.

Right before the breakup she was starting to feel "lost" (her words). She tried to get therapy. I got the gold plated private insurance at work - which is not that common here in the UK - specifically so she could get free sessions. She tried but they messed her around. She was throwing herself into her work and being successful, but in her words that was to avoid thinking about how numb she felt and how little connected we were.

This numbness is basically what she calls her malaise. She says that she doesn't know what being loved or loving someone feels like. She doesn't feel love, anger.

Enters other man. Signs her songs on the guitar, invites her to come work and hang out at his home, talks to her about his love of Jesus (though his version of Jesus seems to have a casual attitude to the sanctity of marriage, but anyway). She liked how it made her feel, so she kept on seeing him. I eventually caught her "officially" (because I saw it coming).

And here we are.

[Mat]

Oh man - went to dinner with W. Now I'm worried she's going to read this forum, but I don't know where else to go.

She pressed me to find out how I felt, without giving much away herself other than she's as happy as she's ever been! She also said I looked "sad". Here I am, smiling, talking about my projects and what I'm up to, but she insists I am sad. I can't keep coming up with new evidence of a full and rich life. I'm a homebody for a start!!

Bit of tension about money. One minute she wants nothing out of the marital assets, then gets upset when I say that the cost of her hotel should be taken into account when figuring out a settlement.

I guess the most infuriating thing is how she's still reiterating that we were just friends all along, and that I'll be better off without her. She got upset and defensive when I told her that my sister thought she looked a bit down last two xmases (we only go back home once a year). She feels insulted that I put the breakup down to her state of mind, as if she didn't know what she was talking about.

I think my dissatisfaction is a) because I didn't manage to manoeuvre out of getting into an argument about the possibility of repairing the relationship, hence looking clingy, and b) trying to appease her when she got upset.

I ended up telling her not to worry about cash, that I'd loan her money to rent an apt if she really wants to go live separately. And I said I was sorry for implying her state of mind clouded her judgment, as I am sure she has her reasons and I am not the one to question them. This is the main insight - I really have to be better at not questioning her, because she'll defend her choice and she'll be more steadfast in her desire to stay apart. I know it's in DR, but it's really hard to apply in practice.

In spite of reading all the books, I'm still a rookie on the actual field. It's sobering thought. I couldn't help but argue back a bit and admit that I'd try to work on marriage if she let me. It was like a chess match and I can't play chess. How can I validate her if she only says she's happy? The only point she makes is how much better off we'll both be. I'm not sure how to validate that.

Anyway - lots of footie and boxing to watch tonight while I decompress. Go England!!