Have I any hope...?

[25yearsmlc]

Just had a nice 20 minute chat with WAW. I rang to organise collecting D for the weekend. I then asked how she was because her dad is quite sick.
I've been thinking about this for a while but I always got annoyed when people said I put my wife on a pedestal. I didn't mind that cause I believe she deserves to be there.

IF your w ever felt you placed her on a pedestal, she clearly did NOT feel that way recently. She left b/c she felt you were like "two ships passing in the night" and that means she did Not feel valuable to you. (Well, Not compared to those higher wages at the company you love so much...)

But after we split I went the opposite way. If she wanted help I politely said no, not cus I wanted to but because I was trying to make a point.

You were teaching her a lesson (a "code word", for punishing)...which is NOT a spouses' job. Period. Let life teach her the lessons.

However after reading DB I realise that wasn't our problem. Our problem was my lack of time with W and enjoying each other's company.

So the goal is to show that you are having quality time with your loved ones b/c you value it, and THEY value YOU.

When you see your wife at daughter pick ups, (i.e. when you two have to see each other anyhow), you behave in a warm polite way, but also in a way that shows even though you do care for your w, you have places to go and people to see and things to do....as if you hope she's going to have fun that night, b/c you KNOW you are...& b/c your life is fuller now that you have had the "awakening"...so in your next r (which WE KNOW, you want to be with her--)
you'll be that much more available, passionate and present. IMO, Those 3 things are what she felt were missing in the m.

When you and your d have fun times, know that she will tell your w. YOU need say nothing about it, unless w asks, and then be brief but happy. Let the details come from your d.


So, after thinking about this the last while as we chatted I asked was she ok, how was work etc. she said she was unsettled at the moment because she wants to go to college but also needs to work to support our D because I am no longer there ie separated.
So I listened then talked to her. Said I'd help her anyway I could. If I couldn't help I'd say so but we'd explore all her options. I suggested writing things down and perhaps meeting alone for an hour next week to discuss thie ie getting D looked after during summer when she's off school, how we can get her looked after if she goes to college etc. She mentioned it was nice we got along like this without arguing. I agreed. We didn't really argue when together when M but I think she meant after separating when I was angry and annoyed with her.
Anyway, I hope I have done right here. If one thing comes out of this is that our D is unaffected too badly by all that's going on. Any advise on what I said today or what to do next week would be appreciated,

Stop offering to help her attend college or get a new job, UNLESS IT HELPS YOU OR YOUR D.

Then you do it b/c you are a good co-parent, NOT b/c you want your wife to see you as a great back up plan/doormat.

In fact, assume for a minute that your wife has an OM...Now, ask yourself if you would have made the offer with that in mind? If so, then it may be best for your and I'd support it. If not, it's pursuit under the guise of being a nice guy. IF she asks you if you are "all well now",

you can say "W, I'd do a lot of things differently if I had it to do all over again. I can't say divorce is good for our d either, but I've made some needed changes & I'm enjoying my life a lot more now, so thanks for asking..." Then change the topic and only revisit it IF SHE does.

(And if that happens, then at that point I'd be listening more and talking less. She maybe trying to probe or communicate something, so gather "intel"...)

This^^ is only IF SHE ASKS YOU how YOU feel or how YOU are doing.

HOWEVER,

When SHE brings her own matters up, you "Listen like a lover", which means no judgement, just support & validation.

NO Offers of help, necessarily, but good active listening (eye contact, no interruptions), and empathy.

ALSO feel free to ask her to clarify something you are not clear about, or ask if you can "re-cap" what she told you so you know you are getting it right
(without probing for more R info). This reflects your active listening approach, like good friends do. This works well in all our r's.

You want her to feel relaxed around you, & I think she often does. Then you want to build on that so she does have generally warm feelings for you...AND

then you are the MYSTERY MAN, (a great guy and wonderful father)

who is GAL and managing and attracting new people in his life, some of whom will be female...and you let her see that the new you is an exciting new you, whom other women find attractive,

and you let her wonder if the changes you made are now are going to benefit OTHER WOMEN, after all she (and you) have been thru...after all her "efforts", ---you are finally the man she always wanted...


If your w came over and said "I just woke up. Let's reconcile", you would be a fool to repeat that same behavior as before, b/c it would not last

unless you both have NEW tools for keeping love alive and well...and communicating your needs clearly.
You two have broken up before and reconciled, and both times you "relapsed". Why would she believe this would be different?

B/C it's real, now? Only time will prove that to her. So again, with the "math":

believable consistent changes + sufficient time passing = changes she can believe in. Keep at the changes, for longer...

If it's too late, you're still a better man, and ultimately your life & your d's will be enriched by the changes you have made.

I happen to believe in your case this will take maybe another year+, but if you stay on track, I am confident you'll find yourself on the other side of this, in a new, better r.

I hope it'll be with your present wife...

make sense?

Here are the 40 rules I use, most of which came from what Sandi assembled from MWD's writings.

They're only slightly different from what else is here, with a few modifications & additions, but the highlighted ones are for you (and the other rules too).

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

***17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell). Sometimes the right thing to say is nothing.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes.

38. Know that in time, you really will be happy again, regardless of your spouse’s choices. Know this, believe it, and let it show.

39. Do not believe that showing your spouse your pain and misery proves your love for them. It just makes it harder to be around you.

40. Don’t worry about how the past is viewed. What matters is this day and “from this day forward.” Learn to let go of the past and what you cannot control. It’s a lot to let go of, but it is VERY freeing.

[bashy]

Well, what great advice. Thank you. Exactly the sort of help I'm looking for. I will continue on my path and see were it takes me.
On a side note I noticed a few things at the weekend that may or may not be interesting.
First of all my young D fractured her wrist horse riding on Saturday. That evening I dropped her off to WAW as it was my turn to have that evening to myself. Anyway, my WAW knew I was going out and has known for a good few months now that I have been getting my social life back (which is one of the complaints she had about me before ie a homebody). Anyway, lo and behold I got a phonecall at 8.45am on Sunday letting me know that my D was doing ok. Now, to the outsider that may seem natural ie to let me know all was ok. But she normally isn't like this. She'll only really telephone me if there IS a problem. I have a distinct feeling she was checking up on me (was I home or with someone) but I could be jumping the gun.
Then on Sunday evening I posted on social media that I was out again for a few beers. Then on Monday morning she rang at 8.45am again. I did not answer. I texted back saying "What's up?". She immediately rang to say she was keeping D off school because of wrist. Again I could be looking into things too much but she normally would text me stuff like this. Was she checking up on me to see if I was home or elsewhere?
Lastly, I decided to visit D that afternoon to see how she was as I was close to her home. I sat with WAW and D for an hour and towards the end she asked could I mind D on a Sunday evening in a few weeks instead of the usual Sat night. I said that should be fine as I was looking to go out all day Sat to a local beach resort. She asked "Who are you going with?". I said, with a smile/jokingly "none of your business" to which she replied "you always ask who I'm going out with" which I denied.
Anyway, am I looking into this too much or does anyone think it is something else?

[adinva]

You are doing a lot of mindreading. Keep your focus on you. Yes, you're looking into it too much. Other than that it sounds like you're doing well.

[bashy]

So just had a 50 min chat with WAW. She text me about child maintenance etc and we agreed to top this up with some money from each if us for D's clothes. She then suggested we could do this every month and take D out for shopping - just the three of us.
Then we starting chatting in general and she asked was I seeing anyone, I asked her back "why are you", she then asked the same thing straight away and we repeated this three or four times while we both started laughing. I asked y she wanted to know. She replied: "to see if you've met another woman." I said no.
She then proceeded to tell me whilst laughing that she had bought a device for the bedroom, if u know what I mean. I laughed and said "y did u buy it now and not before". She said she had me before. She she again it was good we were getting along. I said we'd have dips along the way but that we'd always be fine as it was important again for our D. It got to the point were it seemed neither of us wanted to end the chat. Eventually I said I needed to go and I'd see her when collecting our D.
I know I shouldn't try and mind read but really thought there was something in our convo. Was she just bring nice or was she reaching out for something. Thoughts anyone?

[Thornton]

IMO she's slowly taking down the wall she has built around herself. Don't get overly excited, but the fact she is making sexual innuendos and asking if you are seeing anyone MIGHT mean she is seeing you in a different light.

[bashy]

Heh Thornton. Thank you for your comment. I hope you are right. I certainly came off the phone buzzing but continue to play the mysterious figure and only contacting when it is do to with collecting daughter. I remained confident, chatty and happy throughout our convo. When she asks what I'm doing at the weekend I always say going out. Then she will always say "Who with?". I'm not playing games here but what I am doing is showing a change in me which is a work in progress but which is benefitting me. I don't pine after her everyday which is great.
I just hope these little changes I'm noticing in her is in fact her beginning to somehow miss me or regretting she left me. Time will tell I suppose.

[bashy]

So I met my WAW on Sunday to leave off D from her weekend visit with me. We had agreed to take D clothes shopping but it was such a wet and windy day we decided to leave it till next week.
However, we met for some food and sat chatting with D for about 2 hours. I made sure I listened (and made sure I looked her in the eyes) as she talked about her weekend which was tough as she mentioned about being asked by a number of blokes was she wearing anything under her coat as it looked like a strippers coat. To be fair if she was wearing a short coat it would have lol. Anyway, I laughed but said nothing then after she had finished said that it was good she had a nice night out with her friends. She asked me was I out and were did I go. I told her with friends to a few bars - my sister looked after D after she fell asleep staying at her house.
All in all it was a nice few hours as we talked and laughed about different things. I definitely sense she isn't threatened by me anymore (ie am not needy, constantly ringing etc).
On a side note her dad is very ill at the moment with a liver problem. It is quite serious. I told her if she needed to chat about anything to just call. Even if it was just to take her mind off things.
But I wonder why she had to mention men talking to her about her coat. Was she testing me?

[bashy]

So I just mentioned my WAW has been ringing a lot recently. So I looked at my phone records and this is what I have found from May 10 until May 19:
29 calls between us;
21 incoming calls from WAW
7 from me to her;
These calls mainly to do with D but in recent days the talk has become about other things like her ill dad etc. Chat time ranged from 8 seconds (saying she was near my home to drop D off) to 53 minutes (this call I mentioned in a previous post).
Separately: 3 calls I deliberately didnt answer (perhaps I need to step this up). Thoughts?

[bashy]

So, ANOTHER phone call today for no real reason. A text would have been suffice. Just to say that her brother is near finished tiling our ensuite so that I can get it painted so we can then proceed with putting it on the market. I actually did not answer her call when it came through but text back 20 minutes later to ask was she looking me.
She rang straight back to tell me the above and then proceeded to tell me about her current sitch with her sick dad. I listened and asked her q's making sure I didn't interrupt.
We chatted for about 25 minutes which was really nice. Again I ended the call first and said we would speak again on Friday before I pick D up for hospital appointment.
On a side note.... I'm not sure I should have done this but I booked her a table at a nice restaurant for her and D as they are clothes shopping for little one at the weekend. I told her it was a wee treat for them both because I know she's having a tough time at the moment and thought they would enjoy it. Hopefully this wasn't a step too early.

[Momo]

Husband wants to talk tonight. I feel like it is end. Him asking for separation. He made clear he doesn't want to work on our marriage of 17 years. In his eyes he has tried for years. I think it's a MLC. Based on everything I have read in this sister it fits to a "T". I have done a180. Trying to be happy when he is around. Very hard to though. Not engaging into conversation. Only answer his questions if asked. Not sure what else to do. I was floored by him calling it quits on us. Very frustrated by his behaviours as it is not the person I have loved for 20 years. Anyone have some positive input to get me through this tonight. So scared of the future. Hard to hate someone you love so much.